Charlottesville

Ninfan, I can think of only one thing to call a bunch of guys carrying swastika flags and giving Nazi salutes. Nazis. I think you might guess what I call people who sympathise with them?
I applaud anyone who fights Nazis, as they are a group who lost their right to freedom of speech and association by their historic actions (though as previously discussed, other violent groups on the left deserve the same treatment).
You have as much right as anyone to talk shit on an internet forum, and some of it is pretty despicable, so don’t cry when people point out that you’re defending some pretty reprehensible shit. Perhaps you might think a little deeper about some of the reactions to your posts, as most are not borne of a desire to censor you by lefty snowflakes, they are mostly pretty human reactions to some quite disturbing opinions and statements.
My aim is not to offend or censor you, or even to try to convince you that my worldview is better, but you don’t seriously think that some of the shit you come out with should go unchallenged, just as the public assembly of those actual real life Nazis you’re defending must always be challenged, for fear of letting our grandparents down if nothing else.

*I am not left wing, I’m an Environmentalist, Libertarian, Anarchist, Optimistic Nihilist. 😉

Similarly, I’m all for the right to demonstrate in support of a cause (with same caveats as above) but it’s utterly inappropriate, even in the US, to do so while tooled up for WW3 – that’s public intimidation, not demonstration

Really? Many feel that this protest was one of the most important events in the campaign for civil rights:

Can I just check for clarification purposes, are you suggesting that Mr Fields was simply retaliating to violence from the political left?
[/quote]

Armed because the far right might do something like drive a car into them Ninfan.

Have yet to see any lefties engaging in terrorism in the US – it’s always right wingers. McVeigh etc etc – in fact there’s been 150 right wing terrorist attacks or attempted attacks since 1993. There have been no incidents from the left since the end of the cold war – in the United States.

That is pretty **** damning of the right and makes you’re own hysterical position, utterly baseless as usual Ninfan. In fact, I’ve come to the conclusion that whenever you offer an opinion – the right one is automatically the one opposed to yours.

@Aracer. No, HTH

Have yet to see any lefties engaging in terrorism in the US

http://time.com/4818165/steve-scalise-shooting-suspect-james-hodgkinson/
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/06/17/man-shot-republican-steve-scalise-had-names-three-members-congress/

Go on, let me guess… wider left wing community can’t be blamed for actions of one deranged individual, lone wolf attack, not representative of the wider, peace loving left wing community…

Ah, OK, so what is the retaliation you’re referring to, and what does it have to do with this thread?

that particular protest, ninfan? (Seattle?) I dont think so

Can’t deny that the BP (in the late 1960s – 50yrs ago) was a movement of significance that formed as a response to perceived (and hugely likely to be correctly so) violent, racist policing but that particular event (resulting in zero harm or arrests), nah. trifling

Ninfan won’t be pleased were back to comparing him to Hitler again, were supposed to be past that phase and just calling him a dick or something.

I called him a **** but it got removed….

Ninfan won’t be pleased were back to comparing him to Hitler again, were supposed to be past that phase and just calling him a dick or something.

A group fighting for the same rights as other citizens in their society or a group wanting to subjugate/oppress a group within their society…. Yeah, fair comparison. 🙄

The pictures may appear to be similar, but the story is not.

Suppose you think Mandela was a bad man, too.

I stand by my original post about ninfan.

that particular event (resulting in zero harm or arrests), nah. trifling

You appear to have forgotten your own comment

I’m all for the right to demonstrate in support of a cause (with same caveats as above) but it’s utterly inappropriate, even in the US, to do so while tooled up for WW3 – that’s public intimidation, not demonstration

Hoist on your own petard of double standards I’m afraid

A group fighting for the same rights as other citizens in their society or a group wanting to subjugate/oppress a group within their society…. Yeah, fair comparison

Again, free speech for the people you agree with, but not the others – you really don’t get it do you?

A little light reading from another leftie:

https://theintercept.com/2017/08/13/the-misguided-attacks-on-aclu-for-defending-neo-nazis-free-speech-rights-in-charlottesville/

ninfers, do you actually think you are putting forward reasonable points, or just good bait? 😆

To everyone else, why ye bothering?

No double standards here. You said “Many feel that this protest was one of the most important events in the campaign for civil rights” so I was disagreeing with “the many”. I stand by that – that event was a non-event

On the point of being tooled up, yeah, I don’t like it but as I said, it’s the intimidatory nature that I specifically dislike (and I’d be far, far happier as a white man to have had to stand anywhere near those BP geezers than the white KKK’n’chums last week).

Go on, let me guess… wider left wing community can’t be blamed for actions of one deranged individual, lone wolf attack, not representative of the wider, peace loving left wing community…

So what you’re saying is that right wingers are still roughly 150 times more likely to go terroristy?

Great point Ninfan, you really succeeded in defending your position. Now, where are all these left wing terror cells and militia?

You’re hilariously deluded – keep telling yourself that it is the left that is the enemy here.

Nothing hilarious about it – gives me major sad face. 🙁

Edit to clarify that ninfan’s delusions are so obvious as to be not under discussion.

It’s just another example of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/True-believer_syndrome

You get these cases in all walks of life – I had to disocciate myself from a friend of over a decade because she Brexshitted, turned out to be an anti-vaxxer and claimed the confederate flag wasn’t a symbol of hate because she read it in the Telegraph.

You can’t reason with crazy.

Sorry, missed this thread when it started and have been catching up from the back – but without wanting to re-open this one, ISTM you lot missed a trick when responding to this (and further defences of it):

Ah, so what you’re suggesting here is that we should condemn politicians on many sides, on many sides?

Ah, so what you’re suggesting here is that we should condemn politicians on many sides, on many sides?

Bigly.

teamhurtmore – Member

What an extraordinary obsession with ninfan on here

Not at all.
All nazi apologists will be called out. 🙂

ninfan – Member

“Unless you’re Native American, you came from someplace else.”

Hmm, sounds awfully like Bernard Manning doesn’t it?

Not to me.
Sounds like an extremely concise way of pointing out one of the rank hypocrisies of the nazis in Charlottesville.
No idea what it sounds like to a nazi apologist, you tell me.

“They actually think they’re English because they’re born here. That means if a dog’s born in a stable, it’s a horse.”

That’s exactly what Obama didn’t say in his speech. 😕
If you don’t have sound I can type out the bit you’ve got completely wrong.

ninfan – Member

Theres not going to be many times that me and the ACLU get called the same thing on the same day, is there?

Correct.
Unfortunately it appears that you haven’t really thought about what you’ve written or implied.
😆

ninfan – Member

I reckon everyone who thinks that people they disagree with or don’t like shouldn’t have the right to march, protest, speak or publish their views (with the caveat that what they say is not in itself an incitement to violence) is a fascist

So you are condemning the nazis.
No need to be so quiet about it.

I also reckon that anyone who thinks that the answer to people political views they don’t like is to resort to violence (be that ‘punch a nazi’ or ‘punch a leftie’) is just as reprehensible.

This doesn’t make sense.
The murderer who drove his car into a crowd of people was also a nazi.
You’re saying the nazi is just as bad as a nazi.
You’re getting confused.

What we have witnessed here, repeatedly, is double standards – constant justification of violence by the political left because ‘nazis are bad, m’kay’ (along with calling everyone they don’t like a nazi) but shock and horror when the direct result of that is retaliation.

Cite the violence committed against the murdering nazi or stop lying.
Your choice.
Calling people nazis who identify as nazis, hold similar views to nazis and carry the flag of nazis, et cetera is not unreasonable.

Nazis are actually bad, m’kay?

And one from earlier, because of the sheer, well…

ninfan – Member

So this is the occasion where it’s now OK to burden an entire community with collective responsibility for the ‘lone wolf’ actions of an individual and expect community leaders to condemn the actions and apologise on the communities behalf?

The community is nazis. They hold nazi beliefs. They’re not a group who collectively like flower arranging. They want to eradicate people that are different to them and hold different beliefs. One of them achieved that.

If you’re struggling to understand that then I have a great analogy though I fear it could beckon the ‘hammer.

Insatiable even?

The community is nazis. They hold nazi beliefs. They’re not a group who collectively like flower arranging. They want to eradicate people that are different to them and hold different beliefs. One of them achieved that

replace Nazi with Muslim.. you could even use quotes from the Koran to “prove” it

replace nazi with Muslim

Genuine lol.

Ok, I was hoping for 10 pages, but I think we’re done here.

I think Ninfan should get himself a VPN and go for a wander through some UK and US far right websites and chat rooms.

If he can do that without the need to shower, then try some European and Russian ones.

The pure, visceral hatred makes your soul die, and they walk among us.

The community is nazis. They hold nazi beliefs. They’re not a group who collectively like flower arranging. They want to eradicate people that are different to them and hold different beliefs. One of them achieved that

replace Nazi with Muslim.. you could even use quotes from the Koran to “prove” it

Wow. Are you suggesting that being a Muslim is inherently bad, in the same way that being a Nazi is inherently bad? If so you need to learn the difference between ‘a Muslim’ and ‘a Muslin terrorist extremist killer’. There is a big difference :roll:.

There is a relationship between American postal service workers and mad killing sprees (the phrase ‘going postal’), but it would be pretty stupid to think all American post office workers are potential insane mass murders, don’t you think?

Are you suggesting that being a Muslim is inherently bad, in the same way that being a Nazi is inherently bad?

I’m saying that once you begin to treat people differently on the basis of whom you perceive to be “inherently bad” or allow government to censor views, opinions, free speech or protest because you don’t like what people are saying, or because it might upset somebody, then we’re all ****ed

Nazis have as much right to speak, march and protest, as communists (or any other group) do, even though I profoundly disagree with both of them. Both should be able to do so without fear of being physically attacked by their opponents – it’s not a difficult concept.

I’m saying that once you begin to treat people differently on the basis of whom you perceive to be “inherently bad” or allow government to censor views, opinions, free speech or protest because you don’t like what people are saying, then we’re all ****ed

To clarify, do YOU ‘perceive’ Muslims to be inherently bad in the same way that Nazi’s are perceived to be inherently bad?

replace Nazi with Muslim.. you could even use quotes from the Koran to “prove” it

Nazis have as much right to speak, march and protest, as communists (or any other group) do, even though I profoundly disagree with both of them. Both should be able to do so without fear of being physically attacked by their opponents – it’s not a difficult concept.

So you don’t think the UK “incitement to racial hatred” law is a good thing when applied to Nazism?

Both should be able to do so without fear of being physically attacked by their opponents – it’s not a difficult concept.

Sure, resorting to violence is not a good solution in any way, but ignoring Nazi’s is even worse. Surely the only way to improve the situation (without violence or imprisonment) is to try and teach Nazis why their beliefs are inherently wrong. That won’t happen by ignoring them.

To clarify, do YOU ‘perceive’ Muslims to be inherently bad in the same way that Nazi’s are perceived to be inherently bad?

Which is worse, the Daleks or the Cybermen?

I perceive Muslims to be as inherently bad as christians, Hindus, Jews and any other sky-fairy following religion.

In just the same way as I perceive Nazis to be as inherently bad as Communists

So you don’t think the UK “incitement to racial hatred” law is a good thing when applied to Nazism

To be honest, I don’t support it in the slightest (when applied to any group, not just Nazi’s), nor do I support the laws on incitement to religious hatred, in both cases I don’t support them due to their chilling effect on free speech – as opposed to the laws prohibiting incitement to violence, which I support 100%

I don’t know about you but I wouldn’t be going protesting anywhere where there are loads of squirrel eating nutjobs wandering around with assault rifles

‘Merica is mental!

Mind you, I suppose you could consider it a nod to multiculturalism that the killer then chose to use his car to kill people, which is a bit… you know… ISISy, instead of the more time honoured ‘Merican tradition of going postal with a massive bag of guns

Or maybe he was being ironic?

Both should be able to do so without fear of being physically attacked by their opponents – it’s not a difficult concept.

Remind us who was physically attacked by whom in this case.

I “perceive” Nazis to be “inherently bad” on account of the killing 6 million Jews thang. But hey, that’s just me – judgemental.

Seems to me that those white supremacist types seem pretty keen on (parts of) the 1st and 2nd amendments, but seek to challenge the 13th (slavery and servitude), 14th (equal protection of the law) and 15th (right to vote regardless race, colour or servitude).

Not to mention the good old Declaration of Independence which says “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness”.

Seems odd that they style themselves as ‘patriots’ when they are so at odds with the fundamentals of their country.

I’m saying that once you begin to treat people differently on the basis of whom you perceive to be “inherently bad” or allow government to censor views, opinions, free speech or protest because you don’t like what people are saying, then we’re all ****ed

I actually agree with that ninfan.

But the exception is always that incitement to violence is not permitted. and it’s pretty easy to argue that folk flying nazi flags, chanting nazi slogans and making nazi salutes are saying they approve of nazi methods of dealing with opponents. Likewise the KKK guys.

I “perceive” Nazis to be “inherently bad” on account of the killing 6 million Jews thang. But hey, that’s just me – judgemental.

Muslims, Christians, Hindu’s, Communists and Mongol Hordes have all done much the same

I perceive Muslims to be as inherently bad as christians, Hindus, Jews and any other sky-fairy following religion.

Muslims, Christians, Hindu’s, Communists and Mongol Hordes have all done much the same

Yes, the major religions have resulted in a lot of ‘bad’ things…..but some good too. Have the Nazi’s ever done anything ‘good’? That’s the difference. The religions do not teach hatred (beyond the misinterpretations of extremists/terrorists, who are a tiny minority).

Muslims, Christians, Hindu’s, Communists and Mongol Hordes have all done much the same

Not really. The Nazis existed for – what – 20 years? And killed 6 million. Quite a hit rate. Plus – it was an essential element of their philosophy – the mob at Charlotteville were shouting anti-Semitic slogans, not “let’s build more autobahns”. It wasn’t a side project like,say, inventing algebra.

I understand the attraction of looking for some sort of simple universal rule, but in this case it leads you to attempting to justify the murder of an innocent young woman. Is that where you want to be?

Have the Nazi’s ever done anything ‘good’?

The aqueduct?