Cameron kicks EU in the nuts – right decision?

We should just have a United States of Europe and be done with it. I’d vote for that in a heart beat.

Its one thing to make them pay for it (and we are as one on this subject) however I for one would prefer that payment went to bolster the UK economy not to support a failing Eurozone

You have to remember that the city doesn’t make much money within itself, it effectivly moves money into itself, who do you think owns Spains loans? mainly its the city. It doesn’t just sit in isolation, even if Cameron is short sighted enought to isolate the UK, the UK banks will be taxed on its transactions in the eurozone, probably at a higher rate than those inside and part of the decision making process.

so if Callmedave decides to go all Fatcha on Merkozy

Get us more integrated into europe? Can’t see it.

*other politicians are available.

Clegg?

Its all well and good saying the Germans don’t want to bail out Europe, but who has benefitted most since the formation of the Euro? To an absolutely ridiculous degree? The Germans!

This. Yet they’re strangely reluctant to feed the goose which lays the golden eggs.

PJM1974 – couldn’t agree more. He’s protecting the bankers (who did indeed cause the whole sorry mess) while cutting the rest of the countries industries loose to fend for themselves, with not a shred of support, in financial or policy terms.

The job losses that the loss of trade with Europe will cause aren’t going to be covered by the City’s taxes. Particularly as most banks seem to regard taxation as an arrangement for the little people, that shouldn’t concern them

Why do we need to be in Euro, to do business with Europe? We do lots of business with countries we are not in bed with.

You produce soemthing, you sell it for whatever currency they work in. It’s not Cold Fusion, just economics.

I’d be chuffed that 65% of a new tobin tax went into UK coffers.

65% of something is better than the current 100% of nothing

100% of nothing is what we’d have when the city ups sticks to somewhere without a Tobin Tax, bear in mind it’s just rich people and computers I’d rather they were here and paying some tax than elswhere and paying us no tax!

If the tobin tax was 100% British maybe I’d feel differently, but why should we get rid of 10% of our economy just to save Germanys face?

It isn’t just taxation and regulations which keep London a global financial centre. The UK is the 5th (6th?) largest economy in the world; that is a lot of demand for financial services. Plus there is the importance of London’s geographical position – you need a centre around the Greenwich meridian to allow 24 trading on stock markets. As Japan closes London opens, as London closes NY opens, as NY closes Japan opens etc. Plus, the fact there is a critical mass of (different varieities of) banks, financial service firms, legal service firms etc reduces the transaction costs for these businesses. Despite advances in ICTs it is still easier to to do business face to face (particularly high value business). Finally, when you have the level of interaction between individuals and firms you see in London (through traded relationships, labour market churning, socialising etc) you create something called untraded interdependencies. These are informal norms, understandings and cultures which make doing business easier because you know how other people work- you essentially speak the same language – and that further reduces costs.

All these factors add up to a set of factors that hard to reproduce elsewhere, and something that would keep London a significant financial centre even with increased regulation. And don’t forget there are hundreds of thousands of people who work in the City – they aren’t all going to leave.

If he’s serious about rebalancing the economy (geographically and sectorally) Cameron needs to use this veto to bring in his own regulation of the City. He has the perfect card to play if bankers moan: “It could be worse, look what the Eurozone wanted to do to you.”

60% of Britain’s exports go to other EU countries, so if Callmedave decides to go all Fatcha on Merkozy then we stand to lose far more than we’d gain.

Really? So you seriously think that all those exports will stop if CMD stands up for our country’s interests? It’s not like we’re about to lose trading rights.

the UK banks will be taxed on its transactions in the eurozone, probably at a higher rate than those inside and part of the decision making process.

You’re suggesting that somehow they’ll tax transactions by UK banks more than transactions by Eurozone banks – or even Eurozone+6 banks? You’re going to have to explain to me how that will work.

The job losses that the loss of trade with Europe will cause

What loss of trade?

There really is a lot of scaremongering going on by those who are Europhiles/anti-CMD.

If the £ was in a mess, would the € currency countries be queueing up to help us out?

The Euro has failed, now let the New Holy Roman Empire fix it.

For once I agree with Dave.

These are informal norms, understandings and cultures which make doing business easier because you know how other people work- you essentially speak the same language –

Wear the same old school tie 😉

All these factors add up to a set of factors that hard to reproduce elsewhere

Zurich ?

Cameronis isolated, he has pissed of everyone in the EU, he is grandstanding to appease the Euroscepticism to who he is beholden and he is scared of them.

Don’t think for one moment this is in the UKs best interests. Its all about internal tory party politics and call me dave trying to save his skin.

There is a whole bunch of folk on here that are dying for the euro to fail and will grasp at straws to say it is / will / must. Dunno why.

It willnot. as for some transaction tax on the city of London meaning we will be paying 40% of the bailout – dunno where those figures come from. A tobin tax would be good for the UK as well as it will stop the gambling in the city that is one of the major reasons we are in this mess. Teh interests of the city of London and of the UK are not identical.
Indeed tey are often very divergent

Camerons policies are making our economic difficulties worse not better and his posturing on Europe just isolates us further and means less not more consideration will be given to UK interests.

Did yo realise German manufacturing is now back above the levels it was before the crash but the UKs is still 7% below?

The euro is here to stay. Cameron is not acting in the UK interest he is trying to prevent a coup from within the tory party

You do understand that if the Euro fails, we will be pushed straight back into a deep recession or even a depression? And that CallmeDave won’t care that you have lost your job, and are struggling to keep your home whilst living with double digit inflation and interest rates.

Are you familiar with the expression “cutting your nose off to spite your face”?

we really are having a rather polarised chat here today
Would anyone actually deny that if we taxed banks or we withdrew from Europe these would have no effect?

You may be willing to pay the price /take the risk but you cannot really argue it would have zero effect.
I cant see foreign car manufacturers staying here if they loose access to all of Europe’s free market for example as that market is much bigger than UK plc.
Similarly I am sure some financial institutes would consider their geographic position if there was small tax but they are not all going to leave for the reason outlined by Capt John

Who suggested the UK will leave Europe? Not Dave.

Did yo realise German manufacturing is now back above the levels it was before the crash but the UKs is still 7% below?

How much of that is to do with the way the Euro works – they’ve gained at the expense of others in the Eurozone. Yet they’re so reluctant to put in place serious measures to prop up the system which has been so good for them.

You do understand that if the Euro fails, we will be pushed straight back into a deep recession or even a depression?

Even if it did affect us that directly, there are some other countries with a lot more to lose than us, who will at some point be forced to take the hard decisions rather than piddling around at the edges. Even if we had agreed to the current proposals, it would only be putting off those decisions (which is in the political interests of some other European leaders…)

The € won’t fail and they will sort it out. But it’s like a lover’s tiff, best left to the parties to sort it.

Even if the UK was in there it would be painted as the bad boy because no doubt there would be conditions attached to any help.

I don’t want to pay extra taxes to subsidise another country’s excessively generous retirement plans.

we really are having a rather polarised chat here today
Would anyone actually deny that if we taxed banks or we withdrew from Europe these would have no effect?

That’s as maybe, but neither side of the debate is actually suggesting we leave Europe – in fact some of us are busy pointing out that’s not what CMD is doing.

ISTM that one side is suggesting we bend over in order not to upset those nice Germans, whilst the other is suggesting that upsetting the Germans isn’t actually a bad thing in the context.

5th – his posturing leaves us isolated on the edge with no chance to influence policy. Effectively we will be frozen out

For example the EPP grouping had a meeting to discuss a united stance. the UK tories used to be in this grouping. Now they are not – leaving it was a part of the deal Cameron had with the tory eurosceptics in order to win the leadership. They are now allied with the polish far right opposition.

So the UK lost its chance to influence this groups stance which will have a major influence on the eventual deal.

By refusing to pay ball cameron makes it more likely there will be a solution for the 17 Eurozone countries which look after their own interests and leaves us sitting outside that group without any influence over it.

Pissing off the rest of the Euro leaders by his posturing diminishes the UKs influence further and damages the UK national interest.

Cameron is so weak tho and beholden to the eurosceptics that he has to do this.

Our best hope is it brings the collapse of this governemtn.

If he’s serious about rebalancing the economy (geographically and sectorally) Cameron needs to use this veto to bring in his own regulation of the City.

That’s a pretty ****ing big if

That’s as maybe, but neither side of the debate is actually suggesting we leave Europe – in fact some of us are busy pointing out that’s not what CMD is doing.

That’s true, CMD is just getting us of the decision and policy making part of Europe, so that’s so much better, as who in their right mind would want the UK to have a seat or even a voice in those meetings ………….. as I am sure that the rest of the EU will have our best interests in mind when they are making decisions …………..

@5thElefant There’s a lot of posturing going on – remember my point about what politicians say they’re going to do and what they actually do being two different things.

Also, I think TJ is spot on. Cameron is attempting to balance the backbench outcry from the Tory euroskeptics with the need to bolster the Euro itself. It’s all doublespeak innit!

True but Dave has chosen to protect banking above our relationship with our trading partners/ our wider interests [ if you believe that view] again this will not be free of consequences. If the Euro fails there will be consequences for us and we could debate whether of these will be the greatest effect – bankers fleeing or reduced trade caused by an European economic collapse
As noted they may well make decisions just to spite us now

Our best hope is it brings the collapse of this governemtn.

To be replaced with??

those principled policy focused pledge dealing Lib Dems

To be replaced with??

Well I think its safe to say it won’t be a ConDem coalition, I suspect Clegg is going to go down in history as the man who wiped a political party off the map, who knows he might switch across to the Tory party if they will have him.

allthepies – Member
All these factors add up to a set of factors that hard to reproduce elsewhere
Zurich ?

Would the merchant bankers be able to enjoy their Ferraris in Switzerland?

I don’t know why people don’t just come out and say exactly what everyone is thinking and tell Germany that they should pay as they owe the rest of Europe a few favours!

This is not the UK’s problem to solve.

LHS – Member
I don’t know why people don’t just come out and say exactly what everyone is thinking and tell Germany that they should pay as they owe the rest of Europe a few favours!

Interesting. Maybe it’s a generational thing as I can honestly say I’ve never even considered or thought of that position!

I think it will be interesting to see what Denmark does. It currently has a Euro opt out card similar to the UK, but seems to be playing it’s cards closer to it’s chest at the moment.

PJM1974

Its further than that.

He is so weak and so beholden to the eurosceptics that he is having to appease them even when its clearly not in the UKs interests.

WE are now isolated on the fringes of the EU like never before. The tories aligned in the parliamnet not with the mainstream right where they would have influence but with a ragtag coalition of far right groups widely ignored and derided.

camerons posturing here means we will have no influence at all over any deal on this and that the UKs interests will not be protected at all as result.

Is it better to be on teh inside pissing out or the outside pissing in? Pissing in Merkels and sarkozys shoes is not doing us any good

they may well make decisions just to spite us now

And you think they’re not doing that already? The tobin tax, whether a good idea or not, is simply a way of postponing problems to the future – probably until after Sarkozy’s elections problems are over. The long term solution is for the Euro to become a grown-up currency and have a viable central bank acting as lender-of-last-resort, which probably means the Germans bailing out a few other countries through Euro-bonds or whatever. It’s Merkel’s intransigence that’s causing the problems at the moment, not Cameron’s.

Interesting blog post from the Beeb’s Gavin Hewitt

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16106979

“Last night most of Europe’s governments gave up a chunk of their sovereignty. In the future, tax and spending plans will be shown to European officials before national governments.”

First time I’d heard that reported.

“Last night’s historic agreement has little to say about debt, about the absence of growth, about the European economies that continue to grow apart.”

Just delaying the inevitable ? How will this agreement help Italy/Spain/France/<insert other non-Germanic Euro country here> ?

I don’t know why people don’t just come out and say exactly what everyone is thinking and tell the City that they should pay as they owe the rest of Europe a few favours!

Is it better to be on teh inside pissing out or the outside pissing in?

You mean like being part of a union of countries? 🙂

So what has Dave actually achieved? The rest of the EU have said “We’ll go our own way thanks, and stuff you and your british safeguards!” What will dave do? Nothing! He’ll continue to use the IMF as a back channel way of underwriting the euro with UK taxpayers money. Some eurosceptic!…

Cameron has positioned himself right with public opinion on this.

Anyone heard anything from Labour yet?

@ IanMunro, very good sir, very good!