I sort of agree with CFH, but it’s too complex to set out with hard and fast rules, it has to be interpretation.

eg: You can’t say going for it with one hand is a defining factor – we’ve seen some fabulous one handed handling this WC.

Judging intent is bloody nigh impossible; knocking it up and hoping to get to it before it lands? The intent is to knock it up, but there’s a % chance that you won’t do the second bit. At what point is there an intent plus likelihood factor – I intended to catch it afterwards even though it was a 1 in 100 chance of it coming off, it was never my intent to simply knock on and not catch it.

MAYBE….. there needs to be sanctions based on the outcome rather than the intent. A wilful rather than accidental knock on – wilful meaning one that has a reasonable chance of failing – penalty. If that was leading to an immediate ‘potential’ try scoring opportunity. Penalty plus yellow. If that was leading to an immediate ‘definite’ try scoring opportunity – penalty try plus yellow.

Aye, but it seems harsh that a knock on which is construed as deliberate when it is really one that has a chance of succeeding, albeit a low one, is punished the same whatever the outcome.

eg: the Scottish interception try. If that had been the same situation as Maitland? A one handed grab for the ball because it might stick, or I might grab the rebound? I assume if he’d knocked it on 15 yards from the Aus line he’d get a yellow card for that? Doesn’t seem right.

It puts the onus on players to make split second decisions about not only whether they can do what they are trying to do, but also what the outcome will be if they don’t – but isn’t that what it’s all about in the end, making the right decision at that moment under extreme duress?

For the neutral, the game would have been held up by two minutes and the resulting scrum/penalty would still have been criticised by the supporters. On replay it looked to me like the ball came off Strauss’s shoulder – correct penalty decision. Every Scottish fan will say that’s wrong. Even with TMO involvement someone would still be unhappy.

Yes, pretty sure the ball brushes off Strauss’s shoulder last after Gold 21 touched it – have no idea if this effects the decision, mind.

Thanks for promptly proving my point.

@aa Wales are no where near the SH, if RSA had had kicked their goals they would have been comfortably clear.
Wales have about the poorest record against SH team, glorious defeat after glorious defeat with a few thrashings thrown in

@lifer no criticism of the two from me after Fiji. Yes my point was you the rules say you can check the build up to a try but not a game winning penalty with 2 mins to go.

Apologies Idlejon by number 9 I mean scrum half.

Same thing, surely? ❓

From the Guardian with quotes from the Aussie 9, clear refereeing error it seems

Joubert’s controversial decision to award Australia a penalty for an accidental Scotland offside was later shown to be incorrect. The Australia scrum-half Nick Phipps admitted after the match he had deliberately attempted to win the loose ball that then struck the Scotland open-side flanker John Hardie. His intent to win the ball cleared Hardie of accidental offside.

“I think everyone was trying to win the ball. We were all going for it,” Phipps said.

@igm, I see what you mean now.

I hope they support Joubert. He made a mistake in front of millions of armchair experts with PVRs. Sure, legging it from the pitch didnt cover him in glory, but I think the after-the-match witch hunt things is a bit OTT.

Exactly – if you accept the construct of a person on the ground making decisions then you have to accept those decisions, and that they are final. Do you really want the outcome of sporting events decided afterwards by a jury ? Refs too scared to blow the whistle in case they lose their job, and stopping the game all the time to check the TMO.

There were two minutes left on the clock, the guy made a call. Wrong, as it turned out and he shouldn’t have legged it.

That’s more likely to do for him than anything he did during the actual match.

No. But he’s accidentally offside – meaning scrum in that situation.

A scrum if a player is offside and the ball knocks into him. A penalty if the offside player attempts to play the ball. What did the Scot do? Once again, this happens every single weekend and almost without exception the player is penalised for it. He didn’t need to play the ball if there was any confusion. Why did he play the ball?

idlejohn – no, you’re incorrect.

IF (scenario 1):
A Scottish player knocks-on, an Aussie plays the ball, then a Scot in an off-side position plays it, it’s Accidental Offside and the result is a scrum (Aussie ball). i.e. Strauss knock-on -> Phipps -> Hardie = Scrum

IF (scenario 2):
A Scottish player knocks-on and it goes directly to a Scot in an off-side position, who plays the ball, then it’s off-side and the result is a penalty. i.e. Strauss knock-on -> Hardie = Penalty

As scenario 1 above seems to be agreed by my most observers with the benefit of TV replays, then the ref’s got it wrong.

To be fair though, I hadn’t realised the ref wasn’t allowed to go to the TMO for this incident and has to call it as he sees it, so it’s a pretty tough one to get right. Not that I’m likely to forgive him any time soon…

Yep Joubert was a knob, running off the pitch was very, very poor. He should get some support; ref’s need to be able to referee according to the laws as they see the game.

I would like to see more penalties / chat from the ref’ for players trying to ‘play’ the ref. I’m looking at all those Aussies with their hand’s up – this isn’t football.

Any body seen the story that Andy Powell sent some really abusive tweets to Cuthbert, he said he lost his phone but he has form for being a twit.

Generally ref’s err on the side of caution in such situations, Joubert was pretty damn reluctant (cough cough) to award a penalty to France in the closing stages of the 2011 final. It would have been easy and the right thing to do to ask the TMO, could you check X or Y or ask for it to be shown on the big screen. As I said its crazy if officially you can ask the TMO re offside if a try is scored but a penalty with 2 mins to go you cannot ?

As we are talking ref’s anyone here think Nigel Owens is not a nailed on certainty to take the final ?

Not sure IRB are man enough to put Barnes into a NZ RWC final.