Agreed, Peel was a great *proper* 9

My instinct with comments like Gatland suggesting injury subs only was to wholeheartedly agree… but thinking about it more it just makes it more likely that the SH teams would put a cricket score on us!

The SH teams don’t struggle to score tries and the Rugby Championship/ Super 15 18/ etc produces some very exciting rugby. When I think about it more, I don’t see why the rules should be changed just because the NH is stuck in a stodgy patch of boring rugby.

In 2011 I felt Wales had a realistic shot at winning the RWC. Maybe that’s one eyed but they were playing some great rugby. Sure a lot of the tries below had some ropey tackling from smaller Nations but you also have North on form running strong, decent lines at speed, 1/2p with blistering pace, runners committing the tackler, offloading, JD2’s acceleration over 10m making space, Priestland playing flat and timing passes to perfection and even Gethin throwing some dummies and kicking ahead for a try 🙂

It is possible, but it requires selection of form players, occasional risk and confidence. Look at Roberts playing in his early days at Cardiff, 1/2p’s blistering breaks as he broke on to the scene, JD2 cutting up defences at the Scarlets, North’s form in the early big games etc… these are the same players in the current squad… perhaps it is inevitable that the better international players eventually lose form or their initial impact (2011 was 5 years ago after all) and the smaller talent pool works against Wales but I wonder if they have to take some chances on some of the emerging guys despite the young avergae age in the squad. In fairness the coaching setup seem to have done well with the likes of Baldwin (great RWC) and Jarvis (top carrries and offloads in the last match!) in the forwards but there isn’t the same sort of development going on in the backs IMO. I also agree with you a_a about the backs doing a lot of the forwards roles in open play leaving no space for the footballers in the current setup. I don’t know what the answer is but I’m not sure I fancy rule changes to make an exciting 6N but lead to an even greater humping when we meet the SH sides.

And you still expect to be taken seriously by the rugby gods? How dare you? 😛

And half of the RC games are on at dawn….

It’s different – not sure it is better for the old fashioned spectator.

Time for edit nb. Please edit, duckers will go batshit if you don’t.

You don’t need to edit, as was previously remarked on the thread STW had on it, people who refer to other people by outdated and mildly racist terms such as “Micks” and “Paddys” or “Jocks” (and this threads favourite, “Sweaties” tend to say so much more about themselves than any eloquent reply. It was also noted on that thread that the person using the terms then had some ground to make up in any subsequent conversation to prove they weren’t really an a-hole. It isn’t the first time on the rugby thread this has reared its head. Aimed at the Scottish, Irish and Welsh every year…Seems to always come from the same teams supporters as well.

Just going back to the turgid rugby issue for a second..

The refs are allowing pretty blatant sealing off at rucks this season. The best teams will have 3 or 4 players immediately securing their attacking ball. Of course, this has a couple of immediate effects – the defence don’t bother contesting because they are likely to be penalised so instead spread out in defence; the attack now takes longer because there simply is no point running quick ball into an organised defence. If the refs stopped every single team cheating at the ruck then the speed of recycling would quicken and defences might open. It might also allow more interesting players like Tipuric back into the game. Simply make playets support their own body weight or penalise them.

Again with the scrums – yes, they are complicated but often the ref doesn’t help himself. I saw a team penalised for collapsing the scrum (Pro12 maybe?) a couple of weeks ago. The reason they collapsed was that the dominant team’s 6 was boring in on the ‘collapsing’ 3. None of the officials saw fit to notice this. Or the ref who was setting the scrum really slowly and gave a free kick for an early engage. As the commentator pointed out – the teams themselves had achieved exactly what he was aiming for, a stable scrum, but then the ref had to slow the game a bit more.

The existing rules cover everything they need to. There really is no need to constantly amend, reinforce or whatever. Just get the refs to apply the rules properly and perhaps we can enjoy some proper rugby.

Sorry for the long post!

I agree that the quality of the 6N has been pretty pure – more so when watching the games where you are neutral. I also do think the time of year doesn’t help – the AP tends to be far more exciting in the early and late months of the season on the harder pitches.

One thing that is noticeable about NH rugby is that the basics are lacking somewhat – the quality of passing, catching, using space etc are poor. A prime example of poor passing is Youngs flinging the ball at people’s heads or feet. The English are particularly bad at passing the ball to stationary players rather than to those running at pace. There is a massive emphasis on weights too – TJ Ione remarked in an interview that he was surprised at the time spent on weights when he moved to the Sharks. This is evident when watching how happy the SH forwards are with ball in hand – I remember seeing Attwood ending up in space with a look of terror on his face! The backs in the SH seem largely interchangeable too – Beale seems to play pretty well in most positions as do others. Things are much more rigid in the NH, with players concentrating on a single position.

Hopefully things will spark into life over the next few games – although I still believe that Wales will beat England next weekend. If by some miracle we do win it, I’ll look forward to hearing about how it was a poor championship and therefore the win can be derided compared to all but one since 2003!

😯 hasn’t that been the perennial hunting ground of flankers since the start of Rugby – dancing along the thin line at the breakdown?

Can someone explain to me what this turgid rugby is please – I thought it was when the weather was interesting (aka dreek, sleeting, ‘proper’).
As to watching teams I have little interest in (or SH rugby) it’s a bit like a w@*k isn’t it.
Sort of good for your health but not as empassioned and satisfying as a seeing to6N or a Premier/Pro12 match?

Whilst it’s an excellent analogy my point is that SOMEONE should be watching the SH rugby – namely coaches of NH teams.

It’s all very well winning a forward battle 9-3 on a wet night at Welford road but the “win at all costs” mentality in the AP and Top14 is carried over into the 6N.

A blind man watching the RWC could see that the SH sides were way ahead of the NH because they played more dynamic rugby and duly filled the top 4 places. Most of those players play in Super Rugby so that’s where to start looking.

Interesting piece comparing Super Rugby to the 6N:

stuff.co.nz

So I would suggest the only difference in the stats is around kicking game. Which if done tactically well I find exciting (particularly in poor weather) and sets up some interesting battles (particularly when Ireland destroyed England last year with their high kicks) and set-pieces.
6N SR
Metres run 699.00 858.89
Kicks 63.78 38.11
Passes 279.33 273.44
Runs 232.78 214.78
Clean breaks 10.22 16.89
Offloads 11.11 20.67
Tackles made 252.89 211.56

I take the point that the NH needs to up their ball handling skills and forward attacking vision. I think they also need to get old school in their set pieces around line outs and scrummaging.

It wasn’t that long ago that both Irish and French backs came on the ball at speed from deep in wonderful flowing moves. So much better watch that bish, bash, bosh

As a Pom (ouch) watching English receivers taking the ball almost stationary has always been depressing in contrast. And then the bloody rolling bore, bring back collapsing to stop the blatant obstruction..

I think this is an attempt to allow faster, more flowing, attacking rugby rather than ping every marginal technical infringement. Watch the SH sides and they seal off to secure quick ball and generally play a higher tempo game whereas we seem to kinda seal off, have a bit of a tussle to make absolutely certain of secure ball, look around a bit and then amble in to the next predictable bosh. The rules are the same but the approaches are different. Granted weather doesn’t help but the best teams play deep in the opponents half (good kicking game) where you can mount pressure both in attack and defence and be a little more ambitious in attack (unless playing Scotland and they’ll intercept 5.67* tries on average per game from their own half 🙂

*possibly an underestimate

The only 6N side that’s been able to match the SH in the professional era was England in 2002-2003.

The only 6N side that can match them in the forseeable future is also England – if they can combine massive power up front with even a touch of guile out wide then it’s possible.

The romantic ideal that “anything could happen when you play France” seems to have been replaced by “they’re totally sh*t”. That leaves the “White Auks” as the only NH team NZ are truly wary of – if the sleeping giant ever awakens enough to reach its potential.

Head to head records. @aa you yourself say Wales cannot beat Australia and they are consistently the easiest sh side to beat (excluding Argentina). Ditto Ireland. France have proven capable in the past but are very far below the right level now.

England didn’t match the SH in 2002-2003 we where the best side in the world and won the rwc as favourites.

How have you arrived at this conclusion?

It’s a fair question.

Since England won the RWC it’s probably fair to say that Wales and Ireland have been the best 6N teams. In the last 10-12 years Wales have won Grand Slams/titles and Ireland have won their Grand Slam and titles too. In that period England have a solitary title, nothwithstanding that they’ve actually won more 6N games (since its inception) than anyone else.

It’s also fair to say that Wal/Ire have certainly punched either at or above their weight. They have maximised their resources and done pretty well. England have certainly punched below their weight for most of that period.

However, both Wales and Ireland have miserable records against the big 3 SH sides. Albeit Ireland have gone 4-4 against SA and 3-5-1 against Aus they’re 0-11 against the ABs!. Factor in their terrible RWC performances too.

In 2001-03 England beat the SH teams nine times in a row under SCW (Gawd bless ‘im). That wasn’t just because they had great players – it was because they had good direction, planning, coaching, leadership and selection.

Recent England sides have had none of that. If England can maximise their huge resources they can compete with the SH.

Good breakdown of NH v SH at ESPN even if it’s 18 months old.