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[i]Couple of questions;
If you got a head injury while wearing a helmet, would you sue the helmet manufacturer?
If helmets were shown by rigorous peer reviewed scientific data to be of no effect in preventing head injuries, would you wear one?
[/i]
I'd stop and help anyone who was injured, however silly they may have been, but I'm not a ***
ummm..
crikey, can I suggest you actually read what I wrote...did I say I wouldn't stop to help someone injured in any of my previous posts? Nope.. I said if you failed to take what I and most people consider basic precautions then I'm not going to be showing you any sympathy. That doesn't mean I wouldn't call you an ambulance.
Some of us are old enough to remember riding when helmets didn't exist, should we have waited for them to be invented before daring to venture out
no, of course not? Who suggested that? But they do exist now, and IMO opinion there isn't a valid reason not to wear one (when off road).
Couple of questions;
If you got a head injury while wearing a helmet, would you sue the helmet manufacturer?
If helmets were shown by rigorous peer reviewed scientific data to be of no effect in preventing head injuries, would you wear one?
If we had rigorous testing for bicycle helmets as they have here for motorbike helmets:
http://sharp.direct.gov.uk/content/sharp-testing
then bicycle helmets would soon be found to be massively under-built. I regularly hit motorbike speeds on my road bike, so really should be wearing a motorbike helmet. After all, to not do so would be irresponsible.
Would the vocal helmet wearing cyclists adopt the new 1.5kg, speed effective helmets or would helmets become "impractical"?
A couple of 'observations' about bike helmets;
They are part of the 'uniform' for mountain bikers. Just like lycra is frowned upon, just like using a bottle instead of a Camelbak filled with rubbish, just like super wide bars and short stems are the 'fashion', so helmets are seen as part of the look.
They are also strongly associated with riders younger than me; 48 yrs old...who seem to believe that a helmet, made from an inch of polystyrene, will automatically protect them from a serious head injury.
Cycle helmets are like religion; there are some people who are prepared to believe in them no matter what, without any sensible, credible evidence.
I wear one sometimes, I have to when I race, but I'm under no illusion that it will prevent a serious head injury.
alright grandad, isn't it time for your nap?
Cycle helmets are like religion; there are some people who are prepared to believe in them no matter what, without any sensible, credible evidence.
exercise as much pomp and bluster as you feel is necessary, but my helmet has saved me from painful knocks on the head from big lumps of granite twice already this year.. and I saw a noob family member (a fair bit older than you for whatever that proves 😯 ) also get saved from a big bump on the head last year in an OTB..
maybe it didn't prevent a life changing injury, but it certainly enabled us to continue riding that day with a grin...
that's all the proof that I need..
[i]alright grandad, isn't it time for your nap?[/i]
Ah, this would pass for intelligent comment?
I've done 16 hours on the bike in the last 5 days, training for the 3 Peaks.
What have you been up to?
No pomp or bluster here, just a recognition that there is no serious evidence for the efficacy of helmets.
Spare me your anecdotes, for they do not equal data.
[i]Couple of questions;
If you got a head injury while wearing a helmet, would you sue the helmet manufacturer?
If helmets were shown by rigorous peer reviewed scientific data to be of no effect in preventing head injuries, would you wear one?[/i]
If you got a head injury while wearing a helmet, would you sue the helmet manufacturer?If helmets were shown by rigorous peer reviewed scientific data to be of no effect in preventing head injuries, would you wear one?
no..
and no, if you could prove 100% that they can't prevent head injury in all cases. Which you can't, and nor can any 'peer reviewed data'.
oh...And just because you write something as 'fact' doesn't mean it is. Its your opinion, no more relevant than anyone elses on here, regardless of what you appear to believe.
spot on crikey. i'm 53 in physical age, so was brought up pre-helmet, i like to think i can be responsible for my self, the only time i wear a helmet is on a building site.
As for assisting any poor soul who was injured, the only criteria would be whether they voted tory 😉
If you got a head injury while wearing a helmet, would you sue the helmet manufacturer?If helmets were shown by rigorous peer reviewed scientific data to be of no effect in preventing head injuries, would you wear one?
no and yes
and as for the anecdote Vs data thing
PFFFFFFFFFFffffffffffffffftt... I'm just saying that I made my personal choice to wear a helmet, based on my personal experience..
The argument that you're old and experienced enough not to need one is fair enough.. you know your limits, have nowt to prove and have the skills to keep you relatively safe should an error of judgement occur..
But noobs for example.. and us whippersnappers (a notoriously young, dumb and full of cum demographic) are more likely to get into situations where our enthusiasm is greater than our skill..
Surely even a boneheaded old soldier like yourself can appreciate that a helmet might prevent a harmless tumble down a tor from becoming a concussed and gory drama..?
No need for a helmet sonny jim... I'm old don't you know..!!
[img] 
[/img]
EDIT: sorry TM, I should state for the record that this pic is being used to illustrate perilous activity, not elderly irresponsibility.. 😀
I can think of 2 incidents where if I wasnt wearing a lid I'd still be drooling!
I also know a few riders that have ended up with some serious head injuries even with a full face, wonder how much worse it would've been without one.
[i]And just because you write something as 'fact' doesn't mean it is. Its your opinion, no more relevant than anyone elses on here, regardless of what you appear to believe.[/i]
I've claimed nothing as 'fact', and I appreciate my opinion is no more relevant than anyone elses, unlike the helmet police...
It's simple; show me that they work, using hard statistics. Show me that wearing a helmet will make a difference to me getting a serious head injury and i'll wear one all the time.
...but you can't.
Nor can anyone else.
..but you all seem to believe in helmets.
I recommend going to look at both sides of the argument with an open mind. I did; I was the first of my team to buy one, a Specialized Sub Six which I still have. I always wore one for racing and training. I was riding to get the coach to race in the Inter Regional Champs with 2 mates. We all fell off on black ice on the same corner, and one of us got concussion; me, because my helmet hit the road; the other 2 were fine without helmets.
It's not as straightforward as everyone thinks, the subject requires a bit of thought, a bit of investigation.... but no one can be bothered.
[i]It's simple; show me that they work, using hard statistics. Show me that wearing a helmet will make a difference to me getting a serious head injury and i'll wear one all the time.[/i]
[url= http://btawa.org.au/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/The-Potential-for-Cycle-Helmets-to-Prevent-Injury-Review-.-D.Hynd-UK-2009.pdf ]appendix H.3[/url]
[i]What's wrong with the study's summary and conclusions?
The introduction to the Executive Summary quantifies the number of reported cyclist casualties and then refers to cycle helmets as the only apparent possible response to this toll. An increase in helmet wearing rates is referred to although this is irrelevant to the study. The objectives of the study are stated as to evaluate the effectiveness of helmets. The introduction thus sets out a presumption that cycle helmets are necessary, effective and the best response to cycling casualties. Such a basis makes it difficult for the researchers subsequently to present contrary results.
Cycle helmet standards were evaluated to see how effective helmets might be in crash situations. However, no account was taken of the fact that a high proportion of helmets involved in crashes fail by breaking before their protective inner liner has started to compress. The analysis therefore has little association with real-world experience.
It is stated that no evidence was found for an increased risk of rotational head injury through wearing a helmet but this is on the basis of the researchers' own simplistic analysis alone. Evidence of a contrary view exists in the majority of the associated literature, including in a report by TRL for DfT only a year earlier (St Clair and Chinn, 2007). The study ought to have acknowledged that such evidence exists.
The Executive Summary under-states the factual outcome that no reliable evidence was found of helmet benefit in the literature. By contrast, it over-states the purely speculative outcome from the accident studies that there might be benefit for cyclists in fatal crashes.
The Summary of Conclusions refers first and most prominently to the speculative accident studies, repeats the falsehood suggesting that there is no evidence of increased risk through rotational injury, and makes no reference at all to the principal factual outcome that no reliable evidence was found of helmet benefit.[/i]
[b]Next.[/b]
I've done 16 hours on the bike in the last 5 days, training for the 3 Peaks.What have you been up to?
well, it's nice of you to ask. I'm tentatively beginning preparations for a 1,300km, 8 day stage ride from France to the Netherlands next year.
... us whippersnappers (a notoriously young, dumb and full of cum demographic) are more likely to get into situations where our enthusiasm is greater than our skill..
Ah excellent. The "[i]no way I'd ride that without a helmet[/i]" brigade demonstrating risk compensation in action.
If you want to be safe then wear a helmet and any other body armour you can, but ride like you're naked. 🙂
I'm tentatively beginning preparations for a 1,300km, 8 day stage ride from France to the Netherlands next year.
sounds like your'e looking at maps 😉
[i]well, it's nice of you to ask. I'm tentatively beginning preparations for a 1,300km, 8 day stage ride from France to the Netherlands next year.[/i]
...and while you're there, look at how many people, particularly in the Netherlands ride bikes. Then think about how many of those bike riders have helmets on, then look up the rate of head injuries in the Netherlands, then compare it to countries like the USA, where helmet wearing is high and so are head injuries, then think about what that may mean...
Ah excellent. The "no way I'd ride that without a helmet" brigade demonstrating risk compensation in action.
I don't understand what that means.. 😳
I'm not sure that I'd fit into your 'brigade' either.. I've stated earlier in the thread that I won't ride [i]anything[/i] without a helmet for fear of her indoors..
Now I'm sure that if your erm, contradictory brigade of duffers turned up and spouted on about the irregularities in statistical studies, and logical fallacies and how two wrongs make a right, she would forget the years of government campaigning and cheerfully wave me out of the door while all of the family helmets burned on a pyre in the street..
and how on earth can you compare statistics between Holland and America..!!?
trollage
I call cantankerous old troll
[i]forget the years of government campaigning [/i]
...which haven't actually happened....
You appear to wear a helmet because you're scared of your wife, which is a novel approach to the use of personal protective equipment.
[i]and how on earth can you compare statistics between Holland and America..!!?[/i]
Like this;
[img] 
[/img]
orget the years of government campaigning...which haven't actually happened....
are you on crack?
😆
this is becoming a joke.. you are TJs zombie log in and I need a breather from this absurdity
too many knocks on the head have sent you doolally old timer..
Interesting report that..:-)
Surely a better test to see if a helmet has any beneficial qualities...get on your hands and knees...then (gently!) headbutt a rock with the top of your helmet. Then do it without a helmet. Then see which one leaves you with the biggest bruise/nastiest cut???? 🙂
Whether a polystyrene helmet is going to protect you from a full on 20 mile/h head first collision with a rock, I'm far from convinced about, but I can't possibly see how it won't protect you from certain types of impacts. And even if thats just a glancing blow that would otherwise have required stitches, then thats good enough for me...
[i]this is becoming a joke.. you are TJs zombie log in and I need a breather from this absurdity
too many knocks on the head have sent you doolally old timer..[/i]
Yup, I'd respond with silliness if I was getting schooled too....
then thats good enough for me...
exactly
getting schooled
oh dear... 😆
[i]but I can't possibly see how it won't protect you from certain types of impacts[/i]
This I would agree with, but there is a world of difference between 'Glad I was wearing a helmet, so I didn't cut my head' and 'My helmet broke so it undoubtedly saved my life'.
They [b]do[/b] protect, at [b]low[/b] speeds, from [b]minor[/b] injuries.
The rest is questionable.
The rest is questionable.
EDIT: agreed
[img] 
[/img]
Common ground then?
I will wear a helmet when I think I am likely to be riding stuff where a fall is more likely; riding road in the rain, racing, riding with others.
I don't believe it will protect me in a serious fall or in a serious collision with a car/van/antelope.
My concern is that there is a generation of riders who think that riding without a helmet is dangerous, and by extension, that riding with a helmet is somehow safe or safer; I don't believe that this is correct.
I think that serious falls in cycling are few and far between, and that relying on a helmet as a form of protection is foolish/wrong/bravado/ignorant.
I think people should ride in a way that minimises the chance of a head injury, not wear something that is pretty much unproven in terms of preventing such an occurence.
Crikey your dealing with flat earthers, if a helmet manufacturer tells me its essential it must be, mind you i think when the wife gets angry they might have a use 😉
So we can maybe also agree that a helmet is a [i]good idea[/i] on the whole, when mountain biking..?
That there's a very good chance that it may reduce the severity of some low level injuries..?
you have admitted that if you think that you may be likely to fall off you'll wear a lid so I'm guessing yes..?
schooled indeed.. 😆
rudebwoy.. you're out of your depth here buddy.. old you may be, but if you'd like to try and display some of the wisdom that's sometimes associated with the condition then you gonna havta try a lot harder old son..x
ride like you're naked
What do you mean [i]like[/i] you're naked? 🙂
[i]That there's a very good chance that it may reduce the severity of some low level injuries[/i]
This I agree with.
Schooling?
Was in relation to this; "and how on earth can you compare statistics between Holland and America" ...which was a gift. 😀
I'm not worried or even bothered by people wearing helmets; I'm worried and bothered by people thinking that they will protect them in a serious incident. This is not backed up by any statistics or research, or even by my own experience as a cyclist or as an ITU nurse.
I'd like people to [b]be[/b] safe, not think they are.
you're out of your depth here buddy..
hmmmmm, the inner child in me keeps typing away 😉
It seems that last month's dip below 300k was a temporary aberration, and the count is back up to 302,000 :
http://www.google.com/search?q=cycle+helmet+debate
Previously on STW:
http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/why-people-refuse-to-wear-helmets/page/5#postform
http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/wiggo-on-helmets
http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/how-do-you-deal-with-folk-not-wearing-a-helmet
http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/bike-helmet-for-kids
http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/the-helmet-debate-rumbles-on-in-the-mainstream-media
http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/would-you-helmet-nazi-content#post-3139927
http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/thank-god-for-helmets#post-3071801
http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/so-i-decided-to-write-off-my-helmet-today#post-3015561
http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/will-the-uk-every-be-like-this#post-3001646
http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/no-helmet#post-2983986
http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/helmets-2#post-2941835
http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/this-really-makes-you-want-to-wear-a-lid#post-2919841
http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/good-or-bad-advert#post-2894537
http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/james-cracknell-wear-a-helmet-video#post-2783611
http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/bmxers-idiots#post-2758996
http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/wear-a-helmet-kids#post-2705179
http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/psa-helmet-debate-on-radio-2-now#post-2584202
http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/if-helmets-were-to-be-made-compulsory#post-2573922
http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/helmet-on-your-child-always#post-2482018
http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/some-very-sad-news#post-2476001
http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/the-great-helmet-debate#post-2432920
http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/compulsory-helmet-law-in-ni#post-2236497
http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/how-smug-will-tj-be
http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/helmets-possibly-the-last-word
😆
Which would sem to demonstrate that it's not a done deal....
Erm... The earth has been proven not to be flat Rudebwoy - helmets have not been proven ineffective. Crikey, it would seem by some of your reasoning that that the evidence you require for proving or disproving helmet efficacy necessitates the occurrence of a large number of identical accidents with a single variable i.e the use of a helmet. I also remain to be convinced that your somewhat patronising use of the phrase "Next" adds any additional validity to your position, neither does your obvious entrenchment in that same sceptical position... Fine to talk of "open minds".
[i]I also remain to be convinced that your somewhat patronising use of the phrase "Next" adds any additional validity to your position, neither does your obvious entrenchment in that same sceptical position... Fine to talk of "open minds". [/i]
You'll be coming up with some evidence then, or are you just flapping them purty lips?
Tucker thanks for quoting half of my post. I must have mis read the thread title as I thought we were discussing cycle helmets rather than walking or falling down stairs helmets.
With the greatest respect your sister had a no doubt horrific accident. Don't those two things show that sticking something on your head might just might help prevent that happening seeing as with your 47 years experience and partner who works in a big hospital has seen two relatively innocuous accidents kill one and leave another with brain damage?
We are discussing a hobby/sport where you are more likely I believe to fall than if you were either negotiating a staircase or walking.
I am not suggesting you must wear one but really really do not see the relevance of your evidence as anti helmet with your first hand experience.
I agree with some of the comments regarding "how effective are helmets". Really we could do with better evidence but I personally choose to wear one.
which was a gift.
meh..
If you like..
I wear a lid cos I don't like hitting my head on stuff, whether it be low branches, rocks or against brick walls
😉
hmmmmm, the inner child in me keeps typing away
powwwwwww..!!! that's the ticket.. 😀
Not flapping my lips "purty" or otherwise... Perhaps just suggesting that your own mind is not as open as you state nor your argument any more convincing than another - despite your claims. Also I find your reference to age to be totally irrelevant. Your opinion is no more valid nor invalid because you are of greater age than others.
[i]I wear a lid cos I don't like hitting my head on stuff, whether it be low branches, rocks or against brick walls[/i]
Which is a perfectly reasonable reason to wear something on your head, and one with which I agree wholeheartedly. I just don't extrapolate that to mean that a helmet will protect me in all circumstances, and therefore don't think I should always wear one.
I've got 5 of the bloody things too.
you could argue the other side of the coin, that by wearing helmets etc, a false sense of safety ensues,thereby increasing the chance of an incident.
this can be seen in cars, where occupants are hurtling along at great speed yet feel totally safe, reality is that a small aberration and things change very quickly.
an old mate reckons all cars should have a spike on the steering wheel to improve concentration 😉