How does this sound:
"I'd rather you didn't ride with us in case you have an accident and we have to help you."
There are so many other things he could do to himself that would require your help, that focussing on the helmet wearing is missing the point a bit.
first aid but can ride - probably borrowing something out of your first aid kit?
first aid but can walk - collarbone, elbow, wrist, concussion - you're walking with him, pushing his bike
cant move - ankle, knee, leg, pelvis, bad concussion/unconscious, spinal fracture - you're calling for help and waiting with him if you've got phone signal, if you haven't, one of you is staying with him while the other rides for help.
Would you want to be able to help or not? Would you rather find out on the news that there's a chap reported missing out there, and you probably could have helped he'd been with you? Three's safer than two. So there's a greater chance of him helping out one of you two than you needing to help him.
Just out of interest, do the people who don't wear helmets also wear or not wear seatbelts.
And how do you rationalise your decision?
I wear a seatbelt. I rationalise it as being a legal requirement.
I'd probably feel unsafe not wearing one, but I think this is as much through conditioned response rather than an objective consideration of the risks.
As for helmet wearing, I don't wear one all the time, and the only times i've concussed myself have been when I've been wearing one - from which one could draw the conclusion that helmets are thus associated with increased risk of head injuries.
If you were that way inclined 🙂
On the rationalising front, how do you feel about the possible increase in cyclist and pedestrian death rates caused by the introduction of compulsory seat-belt wearing?
[url] http://www.john-adams.co.uk/2009/11/05/seat-belts-another-look-at-the-data/ [/url]
But it sounds like the OP took all this on board anyway, as you rode with him. If I felt uncomfortable about riding with someone without a helmet, I'd start along the lines of "isn't it interesting how attitudes to helmets have changed over the years..." and getting into a chat about it where you can make your views known, rather than out-and-out lecturing. Much more likely to provoke a shift in someone's perspective that way
Latest update. A slight increase from 307,000 in April:
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http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/how-do-you-deal-with-folk-not-wearing-a-helmet
http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/bike-helmet-for-kids
http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/the-helmet-debate-rumbles-on-in-the-mainstream-media
http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/would-you-helmet-nazi-content#post-3139927
http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/thank-god-for-helmets#post-3071801
http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/so-i-decided-to-write-off-my-helmet-today#post-3015561
http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/will-the-uk-every-be-like-this#post-3001646
http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/no-helmet#post-2983986
http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/helmets-2#post-2941835
http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/this-really-makes-you-want-to-wear-a-lid#post-2919841
http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/good-or-bad-advert#post-2894537
http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/james-cracknell-wear-a-helmet-video#post-2783611
http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/bmxers-idiots#post-2758996
http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/wear-a-helmet-kids#post-2705179
http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/psa-helmet-debate-on-radio-2-now#post-2584202
http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/if-helmets-were-to-be-made-compulsory#post-2573922
http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/helmet-on-your-child-always#post-2482018
http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/some-very-sad-news#post-2476001
http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/the-great-helmet-debate#post-2432920
http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/compulsory-helmet-law-in-ni#post-2236497
http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/how-smug-will-tj-be
http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/helmets-possibly-the-last-word
Anyone who goes to a trail centre on their own and tries to tag on to other people is quite frankly a bit weird and should probably be avoided. If I want to go riding in a group, it is because they are friends and I like spending time with them, if I go riding on my own it is because I want to be on my own. Just because we all ride bikes on a mountain/forest does not mean we are all kindred spirits and must be great friends.
However, I don't understand the 'I wouldn't want to take responsibility for him if he crashed and hurt himself' nonsense. If he rode on ahead of you and you came across his bleeding smashed up body (whether head related and helmet preventable or not), he's on his own, and you are the first people to arrive - would you not stop to help just the same as if he was your 'new friend'?
Latest update. A slight increase from 307,000 in April:
And that's just the number of replies TJ's made on the topic.
[quote=poly said] If he rode on ahead of you and you came across his bleeding smashed up body (whether head related and helmet preventable or not), he's on his own, and you are the first people to arrive - would you not stop to help just the same as if he was your 'new friend'?
Depends if I was on for a Strava KOM or not.
There's certain situations where you'd have a word with someone - if you notice the QR on their front wheel was loose...or if they're about to rock climb without tying in properly, but where someone's consciously made a choice about their own safety, it's none of your business.
So if he's not tied in properly that's your business, if he's not tied in at all you ignore it? Surley it's human nature to feel a degree of responsibility for others whether friends, aquaintances or just randoms in the woods, and that would generaly extend to a quiet word allong the lines of "are you sure it's wise doing whatever it is you're doing?"
There's a H&S presentation in our office given by one of the senior construction managers to new starters about one of his trips to India. His hotel room overlooked a construction site and he noted a few guys not wearing hard hats and other basic H&S mistakes so he went over and spoke to the foreman who just shrigged his shoulders. He got back to his hotel room and saw a man climbing the crane tower to free something that had got caught, he wasn't clipped in to any kind of safety harness. He took a photo of the bloke climbing thinking it'd be a usefull as an anecdote in presentations, sort of "what's wrong with this photo". He went down to see the foreman again who just shrugged and said that's how they always dit it and it's never been a problem.
The next photo in the sequence is the blokes mangled body after he's fallen from the end of the crane arm.
He said he still has flashbacks/nightmares about how/if he could have convinced the foreman that the worker should be wearing a harness.
Anyone who goes to a trail centre on their own and tries to tag on to other people is quite frankly a bit weird and should probably be avoided.
Wow.
Isn't the answer really quite simple? Everyone should be able to make their own minds up on whether to wear a helmet or not. If your feel strongly that you should, and as in the case of the OP, someone wants to join you to ride then rather than lecturing them on the merits or otherwise, you could simply say that you feel uncomfortable riding with people who ride without helmets and would prefer for them not to join you. That way everybody is left to enjoy themselves in the way that they see fit.....although poor old Billy No-Mates might feel a little rejected at first!! 😉
I ride with and without a helmet and use to climb roped and solo. Personal choice and one that I wouldn't want to impose either way on others.
I regularly ride with someone who rarely wears a helmet, he hasn't died yet and I haven't let it ruin my day by worrying about it.
So if he's not tied in properly that's your business, if he's not tied in at all you ignore it?
Lots of people 'boulder' or free climb at heights way above what I feel comfortable with. Is it really my responsibility/right to tell them they are wrong? If you regularly climb E6 or whatever roped then I imagine you could happily scoot up a short V Diff unroped without a moments thought.
If someone hadn't tied in properly I would tell them (and I have done so in the past) though, because in that case they would be mistaken about their own level of safety.
Eventually evolution will sort out the helmetless. Unless they don't believe in that either.
Having said that - if you forget you helmet - isn't driving a massive round trip potentially more dangerous than just getting on with you ride and backing off the gas on the nadgery bits?
So if he's not tied in properly that's your business, if he's not tied in at all you ignore it?
It's really quite a simple distinction in that case. One is a conscious decision not to use a rope, the other isn't.
If an adult makes a conscious decision to climb ropeless, not wear a helmet, base jump, eat pufferfish, then it's their business, not mine.
There's an argument about 'informed' choices - if someone has chosen to do something without being in full possession of the facts - such as the walker I encountered at Gisburn a while back who'd decided to take a stroll the wrong way up Hully Gully. In those cases I'd stick my oar in, but it would have to be a clear act of utter folly, rather than something which is debateably unwise.
Eventually evolution will sort out the helmetless
It already has.
How do you deal with folk not wearing a helmet?
I don't really understand the question. Is there something I should be dealing with?
Maybe I should start hanging around outside McDonalds and bars and berate people about their eating and drinking habits and stop smokers in the street to advise them of the inherent dangers?
I'm obviously a bad person with no social conscience.
Let him ride with you but about half way round stop and have a tree head-butting competition. He'll feel so lonely he'll join in just to be part of the gang and knock himself out. They you can steal whatever takes your fancy off him, rape him and be on your way.
I think he'll wear a helmet next time.
STONE HIM!!!
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You have a point. If you are riding at a trail centres, you are almost always going to meet other folk between sections. You might chat for a minute and, unless you overtake someone, you'll keep meeting. However, you're not exactly riding "with" anyone.poly - Member
Anyone who goes to a trail centre on their own and tries to tag on to other people is quite frankly a bit weird and should probably be avoided.
It's maybe different away from trail centres where there is a bit more of a tradition of chatting to folk as you ride/walk and I've certainly hooked up with other folk in that scenario. I can't say it would make any difference to me wheher or not they were wearing a helmet.
Oh - and what saddo is going to post a "wunhundred"?
Sorry.. but if someone had the nerve to actually come up to me, a grown man able to make my own decision, and tried to force their opinion on me, I dread to think what my reply would be.
I went up Helvellyn last weekend only to realise I'd forgotten my helmet as I was about to begin my descent. Must've looked a bit strange because I was wearing knee pads.
[quote=elzorillo said]Sorry.. but if someone had the nerve to actually come up to me, a grown man able to make my own decision, and tried to force their opinion on me, I dread to think what my reply would be.
The OP wasn't looking to force their opinion on the chap though was he.
I was at Glentress a while back, and as I got back to the car park there was a man just getting into his car - and he wasn't wearing a helmet. Should I have remonstrated with him? Or should I have simply accepted his decision to risk head injury while driving?
Quite simple really, you fall off and break your arm it will heal. You fall off and smash your head open your a vegetable for the rest of your life, why risk it?? Helmets are cheap and effective. Sorry people who don't wear a helmet are just asking for trouble,
I would never tell some one to put a lid on but likewise I would avoid riding with them because I have no desire to be around to pick the pieces up afterwards. I have 3 smashed lids in my shed I would be dead if I had not been wearing them.
I usually take a pedal spanner to their head in as hard and a direct manner as possible. I feel this usually demonstrates the advantages of protective head ware quite adequately.
Just out of interest, do the people who don't wear helmets also wear or not wear seatbelts.
And how do you rationalise your decision?
In 35 years, I've never once needed a seatbelt in a car.
In 30 years of riding a bike, I've never once needed a helmet.
In 35 years, I've never once needed a seatbelt in a car.In 30 years of riding a bike, I've never once needed a helmet.
But what about wearing a helmet in a car? Studies have shown that car helmets would be very effective at reducing deaths - actually more effective than bike helmets because of the reduced range of impact angles.
But what about wearing a helmet in a car? Studies have shown that car helmets would be very effective at reducing deaths - actually more effective than bike helmets because of the reduced range of impact angles.
I very rarely get into a car, but I've considered wearing a helmet in there. Mainly just to stop my mother-in-law mentioning me sometimes not wearing a helmet to ride my bike.
I wonder if the extra weight on my head would mean that I should also wear a neck brace?
I don't get this,if he's signed the organ donor card,who gives a toss.Transplant surgeons refer to motor cyclists and downhillers as "donors" with some reason.
Ian
P.S. I carry spare donor cards for this reason and enjoy handing them out.
Transplant surgeons refer to motor cyclists and downhillers as "donors" with some reason
Transplant surgeons are aware of 'downhillers'? Remarkable 😯
motorbikist donor quip I've heard, the downhiller bit sounds like BS.Transplant surgeons refer to motor cyclists [b]and downhillers[/b]
Why the big deal if someone joins you without a helmet? yes if he hurts his head you may [i]have[/i] to help him (oh the humanity) if someone rides with a helmet but no pads then shreds his knee/elbow are you going to refuse to help because he didn't take "precautions"? Ditto for gloves, neck braces, full pressure suit etc
What is so special about helmets? WHy are so many people hung up about them, wear them or don't, up to you, same as other cycling (low risk sport) safety equipment
(I wear a helmet 99% of the time)
Because people are remarkably bad at analysing risks - for instance, lots of people are scared of flying, while statistically the risk of dying in the car on the way to the airport is quite a bit higher than that of dying in a plane crash.
I wear a helmet for rock climbing, caving, stuff like that...
Yep more likely to break a bone i agree , my bones heel ,
Its not much fun going through 6 months of testing for epilepsy after a innoculous crash otb testing gears at low speed in the street and ending up in a hospital bed.
Could have been worse.
Dont wear your helmet fine , just dont try and ride with me
FFS, at 11pm last night this thread had 11 replies, now it's at 111... can we not talk about porn or bikes instead ! 🙄
Anyone see the Louis Theroux documentry on porn last night.... very funny and a bit rude too ! 😳
.... and I rode my bike in the Lakes on Saturday, excellent 50k ride and it didn't rain !
i wouldnt choose to ride without one - but it wouldnt stop me from riding with someone who doesnt want to. if he does knock himself out it just gives you plenty of time to empty his pockets before leaving him 😉
But an innocuous little crash on a bike could just as easily be a little trip over a paving slab, or a slip in the shower, or a low rafter in the attic - all ways you could hit your head quite hard.
What I don't understand is the obsession with wearing a helmet while on a bicycle, but not all the other times you could hit your head.
Because people are remarkably bad at analysing risks - for instance, lots of people are scared of flying, while statistically the risk of dying in the car on the way to the airport is quite a bit higher than that of dying in a plane crash.
I'd wager that lots more people walk away from car crashes than plane crashes
I'd wager that lots more people walk away from car crashes than plane crashes
I don't believe that's true - but that's not the point really. The risk of dying in a car crash is much higher than that of dying in a plane crash. So much so that it's estimated that the closure of US airspace after 9/11 killed more people than the terrorists did.
Risk is only part of the equation- the inconvenience of mitigating it is just as much part of the decision in taking measures for me. I choose to wear a helmet when on bike rides not so much because I perceive the risk that it is capable of reducing as high but because because wearing one is no real burden.
As to the original post - my life is too complicated to bother too much about the risk taking or preventative measures of someone I have no emotional attachment to or professional responsibility for. Would be more than happy riding with him.
I'd forgotten my helmet as I was about to begin my descent. Must've looked a bit strange because I was wearing knee pads
On your head?
TBH I wouldn't have said anything and I would have ridden with the chap. His decission only impinges on my happy little bubble in the relatively unlikely event that he takes a tumble and bumps his noggin the risk is to him not me and is relatively minimal (by his own estimation) why project your own assessment of risk onto others?
Sounds like the OPs concern wasn't so much safety as potential inconvienience, but his own assessment of personal safety seems to have inflated a [I]potential[/I] inconvienience to an apparent certainty...
A helemt doesn't totally insulate the wearer from all concievable head injuries, by the same token not wearing one doesn't make brain death a certainty.
A helmet is a risk minimisation device at best, their use is entirely discressionary under the law in this country and I think it should remain so...
I always wear a helmet myself, although I don't actually fall off all that much and very, very seldom actually bash my head, on balance, and following a big concussion when much younger made the [b]personal decision[/b] to always wear one.
If someone else wanted to go riding with me helmetless I'd have no real problem with that, it's their noggin I may choose to warn them if I think there's some significant risk of taking a tumble on the route, maybe offer a spare lid if they wanted; but once you're a grown up you should be able and allowed to make up your own mind so far as I'm concerned...
Edit:
re-reading some of the posts on here it mostly reads like people are merrily confusing the severity of potential consequences with the likelyhood/frequency of occurance when "Assessing risk"... They are two quite different things...
I'd forgotten my helmet as I was about to begin my descent. Must've looked a bit strange because I was wearing knee padsOn your head?
No, but that wouldn't have been a bad idea.
I've been lucky enough not to have many accidents over the last few years, but one that I did have left me with a split Giro Xen. It not only saved my skull, but also the services of an ambulance crew.
Quick question. If it was a choice between one or the other, would you take a first aid kit and survival blanket or a helmet?
What I don't understand is the obsession with wearing a helmet while on a bicycle, but not all the other times you could hit your head.
This is interesting as I attend people with head injuries on a daily basis at work. In fact, counting back the last four shifts, I have attended 7 head injury calls (I'm a Paramedic) and with two exceptions they were all over 70. I would be far more inclined, based on personal experience, to advocate the compulsory wearing of head protection [b]at all times[/b] for anyone getting a bit doddery on their feet 😉
Remarkably (or is it?) I have not seen a head injury, apart from facial cuts and bruises, from a road bike or mtb accident in, (guessing) 15 + calls in the past 3 years, and at least half of them were not wearing a helmet. The reasons for this are debatable and range from pure luck to the body having an instinctive reaction which protects the head in these instances.
FWIW for various reasons and based on my own risk assessment, I wear a helmet most of the time offroad, and in answer to the OP, it wouldn't bother me at all if I rode with someone who wasn't wearing a helmet. Personal choice, as is the pursuit of any sport which carries an increased risk of injury.
Quick question. If it was a choice between one or the other, would you take a first aid kit and survival blanket or a helmet?
Just take a charged phone and some water...
Different pieces of equipment intended for different circumstances one is a passive safeguard, the other is provision for post accident rider repair.
It's a bit like offering a choice between a crumplezone or a spare tire when buying a car, a deliberately unrealistic choice...
This is the thing - riding a bike, even off-road, is pretty safe. Certainly compared to the alternative of sitting on the sofa, scoffing chips. Making it seem dangerous by being puritanical about helmets may do more harm than good.
Maybe the bloke was on his first bike ride for years, in an attempt to get some exercise?
If I rode a motorbike as fast as I could round Silverstone I would wear the maximum protective gear available yet if Valentino Rossi rode round Silverstone at the same speed as I did, he could quite safely do so in flip flops & a pair of speedos, so please lets not get all uppity about other adults freedom to choose to ride with or without helmets
Just take a charged phone and some water...Different pieces of equipment intended for different circumstances one is a passive safeguard, the other is provision for post accident rider repair.
It's a bit like offering a choice between a crumplezone or a spare tire when buying a car, a deliberately unrealistic choice...
The point I was trying to make was that many people seem to view helmet use almost as the be all and end all of cycling safety.
I'm just wondering how many of the people who are fanatical about other people not wearing helmets are as fanatical about people not bringing first aid and survival blankets.
I'm a regular crasher but in 15 years have never hit my head. I have, however, had some very nasty cuts and broken a couple of bones (just a toe and a bone in my hand, thankfully). For me I'd rather have a first aid kit to stem any bleeding and a survival blanket to avoid hypothermia.
Good grief, some people make a big deal out of things...
So what if someone wants to ride without a helmet, so what if they want to tag in behind you on a ride.
I wish that's all I had to worry about. Don't bother saying it's not all you have to worry about, I know it's not but you know what I'm saying......
Up to him what he does, as it is me. So for me I don't want the responsibility of the helmetless hero so please go ride with someone else. Simple really
Berm Bandit - MemberUp to him what he does, as it is me. So for me I don't want the responsibility of the helmetless hero so please go ride with someone else. Simple really
You don't have any responsibility whether he rides with you or not.
If he's riding 2 minutes in front of you and then smashes his skull in, would you not stop? Makes no difference from what I can see.
"Quick question. If it was a choice between one or the other, would you take a first aid kit and survival blanket or a helmet?"
I would recommend taking them all especially the survival blanket. it gets pretty cold lying on the ground for two hours with a fractured femur (lonely also), a space type blanket would have helped. They weight nowt and take up no space at all. Some pain killers would help but paracetamol would not really have cut through the pain once the shock subsidded. Helmet was fine by the way but would never ride without one (when I ride again). Can't believe that I had riden for ages with a well equipt bag for group rides and next to bugger all for rides on my own. How stupid did I feel when the paramedic/mountain rescue folks were cutting me out of my expensive kit, not very as theyed got me on gas and were filling me with morphine (i'd recommend it). Bless them all for comming to get me and letting me know how pleased they were to see i'd wore a helmet (no shit).
So it aint just your bonce that you need to protect try the rest of you body if it does go wrong. Also i'd recommend this App on your smart phone "OS Converter" (its free). If i'd had this app the ambulance people may have been able to locate and direct someone to me quicker. Be safe one and all.
Because people are remarkably bad at analysing risks - for instance, lots of people are scared of flying, while statistically the risk of dying in the car on the way to the airport is quite a bit higher than that of dying in a plane crash.
Ah, lies, damn lies, and statistics.
Actually, if one did the same amount of journeys in a car as they did in a plane (for the sake of argument lets say two journeys a day), one is FAR more likely to die in a plane crash than in a car crash. Air travel is by far more risky.
As you say, 'people are remarkably bad at analysing risks'.
This is interesting as I attend people with head injuries on a daily basis at work. In fact, counting back the last four shifts, I have attended 7 head injury calls (I'm a Paramedic) and with two exceptions they were all over 70. I would be far more inclined, based on personal experience, to advocate the compulsory wearing of head protection at all times for anyone getting a bit doddery on their feetRemarkably (or is it?) I have not seen a head injury, apart from facial cuts and bruises, from a road bike or mtb accident in, (guessing) 15 + calls in the past 3 years, and at least half of them were not wearing a helmet. The reasons for this are debatable and range from pure luck to the body having an instinctive reaction which protects the head in these instances.
Look buddy, no offence and all that, but this is STW, we'll have none of that 'expert first hand experience' and 'fact' nonsense here! 😉
I sympathise with the discomfort - I've taken a few people out on my local trails and no-one's allowed to come without a helmet. Absolutely your choice as to whether you wear one or not when you're on your own, but if i'm taking you somewhere you've not been before then I feel it's my responsibility - to tell you what you're about to ride down, point out any bits that can cause trouble, all that. So no helmet, no ride.
A mate's brother lives opposite me and is a no-helmet kinda guy. I just refuse to go riding with him unless it's mild until he sorts it out. He likes to go out with no tools, spares, water and having just downed a pint of coffee. Bless 'imThe fact he goes out without tools and spares would concern me more than him not wearing a helmet!