International Men's Day – November 19th

Teasel » I don’t feel insulted by the first bit TBH, it’s just your opinion.

And just for you Junkyard and to elaborate on the above statement, I know that was an imaginary scenario and you weren’t really referring to me as a tit. What I meant was I’d not be offended either way.

I shall be looking for ways to exercise my white male privilege…

Any suggestions or should I just **** off to work as normal

I think this thread really shows that us men are shithot, what’s not to celebrate?

Any suggestions or should I just **** off to work as normal

Phone in sick?

You have a strange username, Smell_it. I often see your posts and think smell what, exactly. And invariably, from the warped recesses of my mind comes a voice that says…

The glove. Smell the glove.

The rate posts are being deleted on this thread I reckon my previous ‘half way down page 3’ post will be on page 1 by lunchtime.

The user can’t delete posts can he/she? Isn’t it just Mods?

Here is some data to support the need for International Men’s Day, i.e. here is some data of the problems specifically affecting men.

83% of suicides are by men and it is the single biggest cause of death in men under the age of 50. Since 1981, the female rate of suicide has halved where in men it has quadrupled. Whatever it is we have been doing for women, it isn’t working for men. We have been letting men down in this area of mental health.

You can find this data here:

https://www.samaritans.org/sites/default/files/kcfinder/files/Suicide_statistics_report_2017_Final.pdf

Homelessness is another deeply gendered issue. The percentage of rough sleepers who are male is around 75%. This is based on journalistic research since the ONS doesn’t seem to care enough about the issue of gender to measure it in its data (itself another insight that men’s issues need a voice). Anyone who walks around our city centres with their eyes open can see that this ratio is evidently right.

You can find the data here:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/men/thinking-man/11787304/Homelessness-is-a-gendered-issue-and-it-mostly-impacts-men.html

The single most disadvantaged group of individuals in our society and schools right now are working class white boys (the issue of race is important but this is not about race). They perform badly across the board and the school/educational system is fundamentally letting them down. If you think this isn’t something we should be worried about, take a look at how that worked out in the US. If you want a whole generation of embittered, far right, ultra nationalist fascists stomping the streets, carry on ignoring poor white men and see how well it turns out.

Evidence for this issue here:

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2016/nov/18/its-no-surprise-that-white-working-class-boys-do-badly-at-school

The prevalence of domestic violence or spousal abuse in men is disregarded at almost every turn. It is ignored at best and ridiculed at worst (and that ridicule is commonly seen on this forum). When you survey couples and ask them to report any instance of domestic abuse over the course of the last 12 months, the positive response rates for men and women are identical (3.4%). The disparity only emerges when you look at historical data over the long term. There are a number of theories as to why this is the case, one of which is that the broad differences in personality profile and type lead men to forget and move on.

Evidence for this is here:

https://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2013/may/07/men-gender-divide-feminism

The criminal justice system is also a deeply gendered institution in the way it treats men and women. It may well be the case that more crime is committed by men than women, but this is no reason why we would then treat men more harshly than women on a like for like basis and yet that is what we do.

Men are twice as likely as women to receive a custodial sentence for their offence, 20% less likely to receive bail and serve more of their sentence than women (by 5%).

The evidence is cited in the same article in The Guardian linked above.

There are many other areas where the male experience is marginalised or deeply negative compared to the female one. For example men are the overwhelming majority of war casualties, men are many more times more likely to be victims of violence or murdered, they are far more likely to made redundant or out of work or if in work, be a casualty of serious work place accidents.

None of this is saying that men are an oppressed minority or deserve ‘victim status’, quite apart from anything else the notion of ‘victim status’ or ‘oppressed minority’, when applied to groups of significant numbers, isn’t something I believe is helpful. So I’m not positing this trying to make out that ‘all men are victims’.

But only a masturbating puffin would come onto a thread like this and ridicule the notion that is no such thing as male issues or problem deserving of a considered and sympathetic response.

The rate posts are being deleted on this thread I reckon my previous ‘half way down page 3’ post will be on page 1 by lunchtime.

I can’t recall the whole the thread but I don’t think anything’s been deleted but that word has been mysteriously edited with a five star-out not a four which lead me to think that it had been added to the swear filter but one got through the net so that’s not the case.

Sloppy work for missing one, Unseen Mod. 😉

Binners – You come across as a complete **** and a particularly nasty arsehole.
Very different,

Its not at all its still an insult and still what you think but if you think you rinsut is poite and his is no then that is your choice

I dont see how the addition of the phrase “coming across as” makes one a statement and the removal makes it an insult

the other “polite” way is to say some would say that you are a and then say it – bith are just the poster saying what they think and both are insults you cannot say you are coming across as a **** and then try and say its not an insult – it is. Whether its a politer form of insult is a pointless debate IMHO as who does polite insults?

I dont see how the addition of the phrase “coming across as” makes one a statement and the removal makes it an insult

Okay, then let me elaborate. If I felt Binners was an arsehole or a **** then I would’ve written that. Because I don’t know him for real I can only comment on how he’s coming across because it might not be his intent to be acting in such a way and he might be unaware of it.

Pointless to jump to conclusions based on a few words that do little to convey the nuances of human interaction.

🙂

More than one way to skin a puffin, eh…

I dont see how the addition of the phrase “coming across as” makes one a statement and the removal makes it an insult

I know! I know! Is this the one where offence is taken and not given? Where you can say rude things but because you did not intend them to be rude, then they are Ok and you are not rude? Is that the answer?

I’ve answered with clarity. If you think otherwise then you’re trying to make something out of nothing or perhaps, as usual, you’re both just looking for internet points and/or an argument.

In fact, you seem to be trying to tell me what I meant in my post, which is a bit weird considering I was the author.

To be honest I welcome the ‘bullying’ to any of my posts related to the issue of gender.

I find it quite amusing to be honest.

What bothers me more is the way that some people chose to misrepresent and twist what I say in order to paint me in a vile and negative way and accuse me of things that just aren’t true. That’s borderline libel and people should remember that this stuff doesn’t get deleted.

Being an advocate for men’s issues does not make me a mysoginist.

More than one way to skin cook a puffin, eh…

geetee1972 – you’re not wrong in a lot of ways.

Men’s mental health is a massive issue and all the other things that you discuss reflect that men in some ways are disadvantaged by current societal norms.

The problem is that a lot of men then pick these things up and use them as justification to continue to suppress or shout down anyone who say ‘hang on a mo, men created the society in which these things are happening, run the institutions and services that these men are being failed by’.

It also becomes a useful ‘whatabouttery’ topic when anyone raises women’s rights or concerns for men who wish to continue in a society where they have by far the majority of the social, political and economic power.

So yes, in theory, International Men’s day is a great idea. In practice, men spoil it.

What bothers me more is the way that some people chose to misrepresent and twist what I say in order to paint me in a vile and negative way and accuse me of things that just aren’t true. That’s borderline libel and people should remember that this stuff doesn’t get deleted.

I agree and you are constantly subjected to this. What you need is a clear statement of your position with regard to the plight of men in today’s society. Without reference to important but loaded issues such as domestic abuse or suicide or educational inequalities

D’ya reckon it tastes like chickeny-fish…?

D’ya reckon it tastes like chickeny-fish…?

Erm… What are we talking about now?

Nope,fishy chicken.

I’d give it a go if it was served in puff pastry. Y’know, like a sausage roll but with puffin meat.

Puffin Puff Pastry Roll

What about testicular cancer? Apparently it’s something like a 98.6% male problem. That means nearly all of us are going to die of it at least once.
Without Man Day it could be 100%!

Its nothing like Libel Geetee. Its fair comment.
Its not your support of mens issues thats the issue. Its the total misogynistic postings you continually make and your complete lack of understanding of gender issues.

I really dislike the bullying tone of the posts tho. Quite unpleasant

‘hang on a mo, men created the society in which these things are happening, run the institutions and services that these men are being failed by’.

I liked your post Waswas; I understand where you’re coming from and I agree that there is some truth in what you’re saying, particularly the point quoted above. Obviously I don’t agree with you 100% but it’s more productive to acknowledge that I also don’t disagree with you 100%. I think it’s possible for a statement to be both true and false at the same time and more beneficial to society when you focus on the parts you can both agree on.

The point I quote is interesting because it illustrates very well the weakness of any line of reasoning that treats a group of otherwise unrelated or hugely diverse individuals, as a single homogenous entity.

Men are not a homoegenous group by any other characteristic other than being male. Beyond that, we have no more (and equally likely as much) in common with each other than we do with women.

This becomes a real problem when you use a line of reasoning that runs:

Men are the ones in power; men therefore start the wars; so if men are the one dying in those wars they only have themselves to blame.

It’s a deeply flawed logic; I’m not sure you were saying that exactly, but it is a line of reasoning that does crop up.

The men starting the wars are not the ones dying in them. The men running the NHS are not the ones that it is failing. The men running the government (but let’s not foget it’s not remotely just men running the government anymore) are not the ones that are homeless.

The correlation is irrelevant. The experience of the men effected is what’s important.

You gotta play the ball not the man though

I disagree.

Then you’re wrong, every assertion has to be assessed on it’s own merits.

Plus it’s not useful to shout someone down for sayign something true just because you don’t like other stuff they’ve said.

….and it’s not very nice.

To be honest I welcome the ‘bullying’ to any of my posts related to the issue of gender.

Nobody likes Ad Homs, but they *are* a kind of a reassuring confirmation that the attacker (probably) can’t fault the assertion itself.

correlation is irrelevant. The experience of the men effected is what’s important

Agreed, but is that experience different from that of women or is the difference withing groups larger than the difference between groups. The answer to that should inform whether the reponse should be one which is focused on men or one which is united

Agreed, but is that experience different from that of women or is the difference withing groups larger than the difference between groups. The answer to that should inform whether the reponse should be one which is focused on men or one which is united

I suspect that is a very good question, but I confess I don’t quite understand it. Can you rephrase it?

I have to agree to some extent that currently Men’s issues are swept under the carpet, but then they have been supresssd for some time whilst we all get to grips with Women’s rights and such. TBH Women’s rights have been well represented and documented but still gender gaps are evident, so for the foreseeable I’m happy to take a back seat (as a man) and support the eradication of any gender limitations placed on Women.
I’ll probably be dead by the time gender is a none issue in society.

I confess I don’t quite understand it. Can you rephrase it?

As an example:

Do men have more difficulty accessing mental health services than women at the point they acknowledge they need help or do they just delay/avoid seeking help?

The answer to that will determine if we need to improve Mental Health access for both men and women or to work to encourage men to try and access services that already available.

I suspect that is a very good question, but I confess I don’t quite understand it. Can you rephrase it?

Men face a variety of problems. The variety of men means that not all men experience these problems in the same way. Women also face a variety of problems. The variety of women means that not all women experience these problems in the same way. In trying to address these problems it can be helpful to look at these as problems faced by a community or a group. Is the natural grouping one which is based on sex / gender or is it one which goes across sex / gender. Do the men who suffer have more in common with other men or with women who suffer. What is the stronger commonality of experience?

Maybe if you had a description of the problems faced by individuals, would you be able to separate them into piles depending on what they described and if so would you then find that those piles were predominantly of one gender?

Then you’re wrong, every assertion has to be assessed on it’s own merits.

No, you’re wrong. The person making the assertion is not irrelevant: their history of posts on similar topics is an important factor when trying to determine where they’re coming from. That has absolutely nothing to do with “shouting someone down for telling the truth”, regardless of what you may think.

Do the men who suffer have more in common with other men or with women who suffer.

Aha, yes I see your point. Similarly this point also:

Do men have more difficulty accessing mental health services than women at the point they acknowledge they need help or do they just delay/avoid seeking help?

I would make two points in response these (excellent) points.

First, the question of whether men delay seeking help or find it hard to access is interesting in that I honestly don’t think it matters IF actually one is a corollary of the other. For example, it’s possible (perhaps even likely) that men don’t seek help in part because society discourages them from doing so (because the societal accepted version of masculinity is to be strong, be the provider, be the protector etc, all of which is part of our problem because of course it infantilises women by opposition).

It’s also possible to argue that there is an incumbency on society to create an access point that positively reaches out to men in order to encourage them into the system. This principle is already used to good effect when trying to address other gender imbalances, for example the current efforts to get more women into STEM roles where the effort is that of an outreach programme. The argument here is that because an imbalance exists, it’s not enough to just remove obstacles (such as they exist or have existed), you have to be proactive in order to get equality.

The second point I would make is in response to whether the male experience of a given problem has more in common with other men, or with other women who also experience the problem. I personally think that’s a brilliant summary of the issue; it identifies the heart of the problem, which is that we are very quick as a society to define an issue as being gendered, or racial or such like. Some commentators refer to this as the politics of grievance or the politics of identity. I’m not saying it is that, but I do think that it’s less productive for society to focus so heavily on these otherwise arbitrary links between groups that end up being adversarial in nature when really we should just try and treat the problem as it exists across all groups.

To put it another way, if 80,000 women and 30,000 men experience instances of spousal abuse or domestic violence in a given year, what the hell difference does it make that more women than men are affected? Gender is irrelevant; the instance of spousal abuse or domestic violence is abhorrent and wrong and our response to it should be uniformly condemning. The moment you start to codify the issue by things like gender, you’re ostensibly saying ‘hey mine’s bigger than yours’; that’s a facile argument.

Someone earlier made a very churlish remark to my comment about 85% of suicides being male, suggesting it would be better if it were 50/50. The exact same thing can be said about DV; if we can show (and in some data we have) that men are just as likely to experience DV would that solve the problem? Of course not and to argue such is ridiculous.

I think as a society we will have far greater progress when we are finally able to recognise that regardless of what the split in negative experience is between different groups, those issues are represented across all groups and if the only difference is the degree to which they are represented, then ignore the otherwise superficial codification of those groupings and focus on the problem as experienced by people rather than by men or women etc.

I think you can consider previous posts, but they too must be considered on their merits, so to look back on previous posts and point out inconsistencies is just fine. But if you aren’t equipped to deal with the content and reasoning of the argument on its own merits,regardless of who is making the points, then perhaps you should just admit to that and not get involved in that side of it. By all means, if you feels compelled, stand outside of the argument and call people names. At least it doesn’t interfere with the discussion.

First, the question of whether men delay seeking help or find it hard to access is interesting….

.all that stuff…..

it’s not enough to just remove obstacles (such as they exist or have existed), you have to be proactive in order to get equality.

That seems entirely reasonable.

To put it another way, if 80,000 women and 30,000 men experience instances of spousal abuse or domestic violence in a given year, what the hell difference does it make that more women than men are affected?

That would depend on the commonality of the experience.if women’s experience of it were particularly different from men’s. Either directly or societal, then there is a case for addressing these separately. Here, one size does not fit all.

those issues are represented across all groups and if the only difference is the degree to which they are represented,

Same response I think, in many cases the difference is in experience rather than degree. But,if the only difference is degree, then I can see why that would seem reasonable. However the fact that it affects one significantly more than another implies that we need to look at the underlying structures which result in one section of society being subject to or more susceptible to whatever issue it is we are considering.

I think you can consider previous posts, but they too must be considered on their merits, so to look back on previous posts and point out inconsistencies is just fine

Sure, but it goes further than that. To give an obvious example, I give more weight to the views of women posting about misogyny.

But if you aren’t equipped to deal with the content and reasoning of the argument on its own merits,regardless of who is making the points, then perhaps you should just admit to that and not get involved in that side of it.

I don’t wish to disappear down the same rabbit hole for the umpteenth time. If you wish to characterize that as me being too stupid to participate, that’s your choice.

By all means, if you feels compelled, stand outside of the argument and call people names. At least it doesn’t interfere with the discussion.

I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding of what “ad hominem” actually means.

That would depend on the commonality of the experience.if women’s experience of it were particularly different from men’s

Yes this is a good point but I think what you’re identifying here is the need for, or value of, a tailored rather than common response.

The more the trend of ‘big data’ takes off, the more it becomes apparent that a tailored response is both very possible and hugely valuable so I would agree that the disparity in experience should result in a tailored response.

That is not the same thing though as saying that one problem is more important than the other, which is where we end up when we take an adversairial, my problem is bigger than yours, approach to these issues.

I don’t wish to disappear down the same rabbit hole for the umpteenth time. If you wish to characterize that as me being too stupid to participate, that’s your choice.

Of course it is! 😐
I can’t imagine what the alternative might be!

I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding of what “ad hominem” actually means.

That’s your choice!