[Closed] Why cant britain produce olympic or even world cup level XC racers

The track success is because British Cycling sat down to work out how they could win Olympic medals (and thus get Lottery funding) and decided that the best way of doing this was by investing in the track team, as there are competitively few variables that can't be controlled in a velodrome. Road success has sprung from that.

The problem is that, as reported earlier in the year, they're not all that interested outside the track programme; this was also a contributor to the very Brummie Dan Martin deciding to ride for Ireland.

Track and then road domination have been pretty recent things though. Before that there was very little indeed. Mostly due to huge injection of cash into track post Atlanta games, with that then carrying over into road. Hasn't been similar investment in XC.

all the real talent is stuck behind their keyboards whining about how easy the course is

🙂

Do we have an elite level domestic xc scene ? Genuine question.

http://singletrackworld.com/columns/2016/03/just-what-is-british-cycling-doing-with-mtb/

http://singletrackworld.com/columns/2016/04/pro-xc-racer-jenny-copnall-speaks-out-at-british-cycling/

BC gets a lot input from Sky, there's no doubt that if Sky took an interest in MTB, there would be winners, but they don't care about it, so there aren't

When I was a lad (early to mid teens) Gould, Baker, Clarke to name a few were all on the world cup circuit and doing very well with out lottery money. Did it get harder

I think that once british cycling get hold of any promising athletes they try and get them into track, they have done so to Shaniaze Reed from bmx, and even had rachel Atherton try out on track FFS!

They just don't seem to grasp or understand any other element of the sport
.

Because it stopped being a 'sport' in the UK a while ago, and turned into a leisure activity.

Well we have a rider in the Mens, we have a woman thats capable, but didnt score enough qualifying points.

But yes, this is far from the domination we show in road/track.

Several factors really, you could almost write a book about it.

Starting with the media who only write articles about shredding and kicking up roost on their enduro sleds. Doesn't attract riders into XC.

Then we can move onto the lack of decent entry level racing which discourages a lot of people from taking part. No matter how slow you are, you should be able to race others of your ability level within an hours drive from home twice a month should you want to.

And then at the top end, there's lack of BC support for our best riders as they channel all the funding into the best medal chances.

Also not as much money to be made in XC as there is for road, so its more difficult to go live some place with weather more conducive to regular training.

BC is all about gold medals at the Olympics - it's where the funding comes from. MTB and BMX (and road) is a much more unpredictable environment than track - far more variables to affect the outcome. That unpredictability means its too risky to commit lots of resources to it when you know you just need to knock out a team pursuit at a certain time to get a gold on the track.

No TV / media interest in XC. Not really surprising as there is nothing to see IMO, I wouldn't watch it or read about it. DH I watch most of the races.

If we had an athelete who was there or thereabouts internationally they would get lottery money. The money isn't going to be there on a "hunch".

EDIT: Another question would be why don't some of our top tier amateur roadies ride xc, the guys that are say just below pro level and aren't going to get a road contract ?

DH I watch most of the races.

But DH isn't in the Olympics; as such there's no lottery funding and I suspect that's got a fair amount to do with BC's total lack of interest.

BC is all about gold medals at the Olympics - it's where the funding comes from

Wasn't one of the other countries' coaches complaining about BC's lack of interest in the track World Champs, which are far less important to them than the Olympics?

EDIT: Another question would be why don't some of our top tier amateur roadies ride xc, the guys that are say just below pro level and aren't going to get a road contract

Because being that good takes a lot of time and effort, and to spread yourself into trying another sport with another bike and another set of races and another set of weekends gone isn't realistic.

Top level sport requires a lot of commitment.

spread yourself into trying another sport with another bike and another set of races and another set of weekends gone isn't realistic.

and yet, Peter Sagan...

+1 JoB

EDIT: Another question would be why don't some of our top tier amateur roadies ride xc, the guys that are say just below pro level and aren't going to get a road contract ?

Genuine facepalm!

Are you that naive?

Outside of the track environment, where it's all about how many medals GB and BC can win to justify their existence, professional cyclists exist pretty much only where the sport is popular enough to pay them to ride because of the advertising benefits that individual can bring to the brands they're representing. Sadly for XC, even if you're number 1 or 2 in your field in the UK, you'll barely scrape by if you're lucky and more often than not, have to rely on the good will of friends and relatives to keep you going. Or... You can turn to the dark side where even if you're only just inside the top 20 riders in your country, a paid ride awaits you and all that goes with it...

Trust me on this one... More than a little inside information!

and yet, Peter Sagan...

... is having a play, because he decided the road race course wouldn't suit him, all at his fellow countryman's expense!

all the real talent is stuck behind their keyboards whining about how easy the course is

Dangerously close to the truth! Brilliantly funny though... 😆

Anyone good goes to road due to the money. Plus XC racing is pathetically supported by UK cycling media this mag has virtually nothing in it for instance. Its a long time since MBUK did monthly race reports.

I dont understand why GB didnt enter. We should be represented even if we dont stand a chance. Loads of other countries enter and stand no chance. A week from now no one will remember who came second, let alone third.

Any rider would love to give it a go. Christ, Id pay for my own bike/flights/food/hotel if I could ride in the Olympics. Why restrict it to those who can get a medal ? Sod the funding, offer it to the fastest person who can self fund.

Isn't it about riding for your country, competing ?

99% of us who enter race dont win them, but we enter and have fun.

I think it is also difficult to arrange decent races in the UK, getting landowners permissions, local council support etc Organisers have to put up the money without knowing they will get it back. It can lead to the "riding round muddy fields" syndrome as other options are closed.

Around here in Germany it seems the system is much more supportive of events, and there is quite a few decent xc and more marathon events.

I dont understand why GB didnt enter. We should be represented even if we dont stand a chance. Loads of other countries enter and stand no chance. A week from now no one will remember who came second, let alone third.

They wouldn't fund the travelling to points scoring races to earn a place. It's not track so it doesn't count in the corridors of BC.

BC don't have unlimited resources, so they concentrate what they have mainly on track and BMX, with Sky effectively delivering the road programme. MTB has created its own image problem and makes it difficult to access - CX race fields have grown massively in the last 5 years demonstrating a demand for accessible XC racing, plus it makes good TV. MTB is the 90s deliberately distanced itself from mainstream cycling and they're reaping what they've sown i.e. Pissed off the UCI who control the Olympic programme

The other probably ironic thing is that not many people on a mountain bike forum would actually consider riding XC.

You have to be fit and fast for a start.

and yet, Peter Sagan...

So the most winningest road rider of recent years, but probably won't even place in the XC. He probably could be up there with Albason and Nino, but realistically it's not a possibility without a lot of practice and training.

FWIW even in cycling's heartland, relatively shit professionals can make a living riding pisspot little road races week in week out (i know, i did it for many years) try that on the mtb you HAVE to have a job. Same with CX. So the only guys who manage to make it big on the mtb scene are those who have massive success early on and then *don't* get directed into road racing. So you are really up against it. I reckon if Sagan hadn't moved over to road for the money, we'd probably have a three way battle at the pointy end of every WC mtb.

They should have sent Phil Pearce - he's been having a decent WC season, but more importantly is super stylish like Nino - if BC were serious about XC they need to make it cool. At the moment it's a bit lost. Throw in a visually good British rider (who's also bloody good at his media stuff) and you might inspire...... Given Phil's in Whistler at the mo for Crankworx, he's obviously not afraid of self funded travel.

Trust me on this one... More than a little inside information

That ride London time is paying dividends already?

I dont understand why GB didnt enter. We should be represented even if we dont stand a chance. Loads of other countries enter and stand no chance. A week from now no one will remember who came second, let alone third.

As has been said above, BC don't have unlimited resources. This is true of pretty much every olympic sport in the UK, though - does anyone else remember the long faces in swimming in 2012 when it became apparent they'd underperformed badly and as a result the lottery funding was going to be pulled?

Other countries' olympic finding isn't tied to projected success in the same way; it does mean that there is a vicious circle where sports we aren't strong in aren't likely to get funded, and as such we don't get stronger. Still, I'd rather have that than a rerun of 1996.

Isn't it about riding for your country, competing ?

99% of us who enter race dont win them, but we enter and have fun.

Yes, but HTN isn't the same as the Olympics/Worlds etc. [url= https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winning_isn%27t_everything;_it%27s_the_only_thing ]For the top end professionals...[/url]

There seemed to be plenty of athletes in other sports going out in the first rounds, people who had no realistic hope of progressing who still got sent, they wouldn't have been sent by BC.

they wouldn't have been sent by BC

I suspect they wouldn't have been sent by the BOC. Doesn't stop some of them self-funding, of course.

Phil managed 6th at Crankworx, so can certainly hold his own. Unfortunately as Jenny Copnall wrote, the entry requirements are not clear cut or sensible, so BC basically have carte blanche to ignore MTB as a sport. Grant had to fight hard to get to go to the Olympics.

BC basically refuses to send anyone to qualifying races unfortunately unless they have a chance of winning - but they have no chance of winning if they don't get exposure. It's a nasty Catch 22 for any aspiring MTB racers sadly.

Also, I believe that BC has stopped the self funding route to Olympics or to World Championships now. It really sucks to be a top level British XCer at the mo!

The other probably ironic thing is that not many people on a mountain bike forum would actually consider riding XC.

It's how I started and in reality most of our non-uplift assisted riding is in the UK - maybe with more features chucked in. Saying that, I like some of the more technical stuff you see on some of the courses - it looks great. Definitely not all smooth and wide as it seemed to go for a while.

You have to be fit and fast for a start.

I was fit. I would not claim to have ever been fast! 😀

@mboy, I think you misunderstood me. Unless some really talented athletes show an interest in xc and get some resuits (probably off their own back) the lottery / BC aren't going to put any money in. I have a little inside info ( 😉 ) into lottery funding and if you start to slip in world rankings / designated events you lose the money. I understand that roadies aren't interested is doing all the xc work etc at their own cost. That's exactly why we are where we are. We don't have any top level xc athletes worth funding and potential talent from other cycling disciplines isn't crossing over.

Also, I believe that BC has stopped the self funding route to Olympics or to World Championships now. It really sucks to be a top level British XCer at the mo!

Really ? In that case the athletes could compete for another country but like the TKD guy did having failed to get into the GB squad for 2012

Hang on a second. Don't sell GB atheletes short, Grant Ferguson had some great results earlier this year, admittedly less so the last few races. We have very promising talent with Evie Richards in the women's u23 and a junior girl (name escapes me) doing well too. BC aren't supporting xc, but we do have riders with the potential. We need to boost the xc scene though. It's a tragedy how small fields are at the moment. No idea how that's to be achieved without media interest though

because no one cares about XC?

We need to boost the xc scene though. It's a tragedy how small fields are at the moment. No idea how that's to be achieved without media interest though

It's media and money that is needed as well as a decent national strategy

The reality is that unless there is divine intervention XC is unlikely to get bigger as a sport

[quote=jambalaya ]@mboy, I think you misunderstood me. Unless some really talented athletes show an interest in xc and get some resuits

I'm confused - I thought you were suggesting road riders who couldn't quite make it doing XC instead?

because no one cares about XC?

People do care, the barriers to entry in the sport are high and there is little commercial support for organisers, in addition it sucks in volunteers which are increasingly hard to mobilise and retain

XC isn't a good investment, you only have two medals at stake. With track, you have multiple medal opportunities, so it's a much better bet if the aim is to maximise return on investment.

I'm confused - I thought you were suggesting road riders who couldn't quite make it doing XC instead?

Yes I was meaning I thought there was (much) more talent amongst roadies than xc currently as if there was more talent we wouldn't have this problem. So my logic was if we get a few decent level roadies committing to XC perhaps they can get somewhere results wise, attract some funding and get to the Olympics.

Where are the youngsters supposed to learn and hone their skills? With access being so crap, there's little or no incentive to look at xc as being a serious sport in the UK. Far more opportunities in other disciplines.

[quote=jambalaya ]Yes I was meaning I thought there was (much) more talent amongst roadies than xc currently as if there was more talent we wouldn't have this problem. So my logic was if we get a few decent level roadies committing to XC perhaps they can get somewhere results wise, attract some funding and get to the Olympics.

But you're not suggesting decent level roadies, you're suggesting roadies who couldn't make it. What makes you think they'd do better than the current top UK XC racers who would have made it onto a pro road team if they'd gone that way (oh, and can also ride a bike off-road)? There also seems to be a bit of the usual theme of XC racing not being technically difficult - you do realise that the days of riding around fields are long gone at the top level and the top XC racers would school all of you lot on anything technical?

@mboy, I think you misunderstood me.

I didn't

Unless some really talented athletes show an interest in xc and get some resuits (probably off their own back) the lottery / BC aren't going to put any money in.

This has happened, repeatedly! The only thing that BC have done is step in to pay their fares to get to the world champs for said riders... A return flight to the Czech Republic, the entry fee, and a few days in shared accomodation must have broken the bank!

We don't have any top level xc athletes worth funding and potential talent from other cycling disciplines isn't crossing over.

We very much do... The problem is, they're not stupid. They ride MTB year on year, self supported in most cases, picking up various national trophies along the way, top 10 finishes at World Champs and in World Cup's, and they still can't get a break cos XC isn't important enough for the sponsors or BC to step in and help out! Little wonder that after years of trying, said XC riders who are often getting their shirt sleeves pulled by road teams with offers of a paid ride, they give up and turn to road racing!

I have a little inside info ( ) into lottery funding and if you start to slip in world rankings / designated events you lose the money.

Wow, very insightful! The closest I've come to any insight into how the lottery funding works is I've bought the odd lottery ticket in my time, but I could still have told you that's exactly how it works! Do you know any elite level XC racers yourself that have been going through the struggle?

I find having bmx and MTB at the Olympics a bit odd... The amount of money spent to build two tracks where a total of four medals are going to be won seems a bit off.

Obviously more money and time will be invested in track as there are more medals on offer.

Why bmx is in the Olympics I do not know. Same for XC. If they are in it, and if F1 is being considered then DH should be included, too. I would hazard a guess that more of us can relate to DH than XC.

[quote=alpin ]Same for XC. If they are in it, and if F1 is being considered then DH should be included, too. I would hazard a guess that more of us can relate to DH than XC.

F1 isn't being considered, and we had a whole thread earlier on whether DH should be included - the point made correctly there was that a small subset of people on a specialist forum might be able to relate more to DH (though what we actually need is a cycling event with rests at the top of every hill and a cafe stop in order to relate to what we do), but for the general public XC is much easier to relate to.

Why cant britain produce olympic or even world cup level XC racers

Because real XC racers aren't interested in a brief pootle around a trail park.

They're doing stuff like the HT550 and the TDR.

We're well represented there.

So how many here have taken part in an XC race?

Surely if we need to boost its popularity taking part at grass roots would be a good start?

I do a few gorrick races a year. Plus few endurance events so I'm doing my bit.

I race all the Midlands, the Nationals, various other grass root races too - FNSS, Thetford Winter Series (RIP 🙁 ) etc.

Tiger6791 - Member

So how many here have taken part in an XC race?

did a few 20 years ago for some Scottish series on a rigid orange C16

I think that once british cycling get hold of any promising athletes they try and get them into track, they have done so to Shaniaze Reed from bmx, and even had rachel Atherton try out on track FFS!

They just don't seem to grasp or understand any other element of the sport

With XC theres only one shot (well two - mens and womens) at one medal every 4 years and you don't know what the course is going to be like and whether it will suit the riders you're investing in til pretty late in the day. Its a very high risk discipline to invest several years of support in. BMX is similar - one shot and no matter how good you are you can just get taken out by someone else's error.

The reason for the focus on track is theres multiple medals available not just for the team but a strong contender has a shot at more than one medal. So team GB focuses more on those multiple medal disciplines (track, rowing, martial arts etc) in terms of investment but theres also a programme within that about identifying talented competitors and steering them towards other sports or to disciplines within their sport where they'll be more successful. Team GB will will effectively head-hunt people across disciplines to get them into a discipline where their physique best matches demands of the sport.

I though that watching the womens Track sprint and thinking the dutch rider Elis Ligtlee - all 6'1" of her - would be rowing a boat if she was british.

if BC were serious about XC they need to make it cool

xc will never be cool, its just dull to watch.

What @epic says makes sense to me

Because real XC racers aren't interested in a brief pootle around a trail park.
They're doing stuff like the HT550 and the TDR.
We're well represented there.

BC can't make an International event "cool" - the rules are set by UCI and they would argue there are plenty of talented athletes from different countries doing the world cup and the Olympics

xc will never be cool, its just dull to watch.

I take it you've not watched any of the world cup rounds this year then?

But you're not suggesting decent level roadies, you're suggesting roadies who couldn't make it. What makes you think they'd do better than the current top UK XC racers who would have made it onto a pro road team if they'd gone that way (oh, and can also ride a bike off-road)? There also seems to be a bit of the usual theme of XC racing not being technically difficult - you do realise that the days of riding around fields are long gone at the top level and the top XC racers would school all of you lot on anything technical?

This. The days of Roadies switching and doing well are over. The courses require technical capability. Only need to look how good Shurter is downhill to see that a roadie would have no chance.

A mtb rider is more likely to go to the road and be successful than the other way round. So that means you cant just get a pro roadie from Team Sky or whatever, give them an XC bike and expect them to be competitive.

You need kids from early on. I don't think we have the racing series and amount of riders needed to find the best riders. And if they get there BC comes knocking trying to get them on a road or track bike and that means theres a chance they can make a living at it.

Be interesting to see how Sagan gets on but he is from MTB anyway.

everyone - Member
xc will never be cool, its just dull to watch.
I take it you've not watched any of the world cup rounds this year then?

Been helped alot by having a battle between to of the top riders ever.

Well since even STW can't be arsed even putting up a report on the women's race what hope is there. Only mention of Olympics XC on front page is a Press Release from Rocksox.

End of the day no media coverage means no one will sponsor riders and if you were say a 19 year old and offered little more than a free mtb or alternatively full back up of the BC Track squad or Sky then it is a simple decision.

UK mtb media must take a huge share of the blame IMO.

I agree more positive media coverage would improve numbers racing. The thing is cx doesn't get any coverage either (unless the roadie media cover it?) but participation is booming apparently (only done one season myself). Guess that is due to interest at a club level?

More grass root events would be good but when regional/national events are barely breaking even I'm not sure they would survive. I'm trying to sort out organising a race with our club and it's difficult. You find a good course in a good venue, feel really positive about putting something on and then get grief from non-racers, objections raised from all sorts of areas, logistical issues and it's back to square one. It's pretty demoralising and I haven't even got to the formal application stage. Got a few other venues to explore though 😀

Xc is more interesting to watch than dh IMO.

I agree more positive media coverage would improve numbers racing. The thing is cx doesn't get any coverage either (unless the roadie media cover it?) but participation is booming apparently (only done one season myself). Guess that is due to interest at a club level?

Some good points here, think the strength of the UK road scene vs the xc means it is much easier to a talented bike rider to live full time as a road rider. Countries like Switzerland have a superstrong domestic race calendar that attracts with skill based competition for young riders and the culture of racing at a club level is much more ingrained than over here

xc is dull to watch for the average bod in the street. Its a long procession of folk on bikes riding what looks like easy courses ( cos of the tv effect)

Little in the way of overtaking battles, doesn't look spectacular. Its basically dull.

got to agree on mtb xc not being exciting to watch.

The ladies Olympic race yesterday being an example. My wife even commented it didn't look like a proper race because they (appeared to be) were riding so slow.

I am hoping the men's race will be better.

I think a few more close ups on the gnar and a bit of better commentary about how hard they were working would have helped.

It depends on the coverage, some of the world cups are quite exciting to watch because they're filmed by people who know how to film bike races.

Same with the BMX, looks dull at the Olympics, but the UCI supercross series looks great.

TBH though, even if it was lottery funded, would we be much better at it? Outside of Schruter and Albason, are there any real* pro's in XC.

Even if you could find a roadie (for the money) who can MTB well enough to podium, they wouldn't be allowed to race MTB because the road team can't risk their riders picking up uneccecary injuries.

I wonder whether it's easier to set up a cx circuit than it is to set up a xc circuit. And whether that has anything to do with it.
Personally I think that cx will continue to grow until they start pissing around with wheel sizes.

It's because the roadies need something to do in the autumn after the serious racing is over and before the Christmas break. Ditto track cyclists traditionally finish their season mid August too.

*As in factory supported, pit crew, sponsorship deals worth more than free stuff and a few quid and making a living out of it? 3rd cat domestic roadies get better deals.

I have to say the medias lack of interest in reporting on XC races has to be part of the problem.

I'm not saying wholey, because BC is results driven & the percetion is track is the best option in that respect, but not reporting on XC at all? Bit of a failure there - happy to report on DH & enduro but barely a sniff of XC...

How about a monthly round up of whose done what during the season?

We aren't all roosting the gnar in our matching enduro colourways with optional comedy facial hair...

Unfortunately the men's race has been very boring too.

Xc just isn't very spectator friendly.

I wonder whether it's easier to set up a cx circuit than it is to set up a xc circuit

Having raced XC & set up CX, I'd say CX is relatively easy to set up - all you need is a sloping field & a bit of tape. XC requires either ready made trails (so someone has been busy with a shovel) or you need someone to get out there with the shovel!

The editors clearly have no idea how many people are interested in where Sagan is 😀

I don't think it's boring but a shorter course would generate more overtakes.

Having raced XC & set up CX, I'd say CX is relatively easy to set up - all you need is a sloping field & a bit of tape. XC requires either ready made trails (so someone has been busy with a shovel) or you need someone to get out there with the shovel!

The press would be interested if we had someone doing well at international / UCI level

We do!

I think that once british cycling get hold of any promising athletes they try and get them into track, they have done so to Shaniaze Reed from bmx, and even had rachel Atherton try out on track FFS!

They just don't seem to grasp or understand any other element of the sport

Track & BMX are actually very closely related, it's not a case of nicking anyone who's half decent and saying "here's a track, you'll be riding this from now on". Good way of testing riders and by the way, Shanaze has been World Champ in both BMX and track - she actually prefers track as the chances of breaking herself are considerably reduced!

The late great Jason McRoy even had a try out on track, he was easily national standard in the team sprint although admittedly back then there was much less specialisation by riders.

One of the main issues facing the current crop of Olympic potential MTBers is the serious lack of anywhere to train. Olympic and WC MTB courses are governed by the UCI and need a certain amount of climbing per lap, x amount of technical, y amount of overtaking opportunity etc, it's all carefully controlled which is why the courses have to be man-made. They're also way more technical than the average trail centre so you can't just send riders to Afan and say "here you go, practice this" partly because it's open to the public (it'd be like practising rally driving on an open road) and partly cos it in no way replicates the courses they'd be racing on.

Track training is easy - there's one right next door to the Team GB offices...

17th For Grant

Good lad.

It doesn't help that the British commentators don't seem to know anything about mountain biking - comments about average speed, soft tails and aerodynamics #facepalm

At least Chris Hoy did a good commentary on the BMX races (probably because he used to race them - and mtb by the way).
Reading this about the lack of British cross country racers made me think about the earlier MOTO GP race that a Brit won for the first time since 1981 (Barry Sheene) and there's a lot more money in that !!

It's true BC suck a lot of riders to the track but not the only issue. If you look at when XC and DH split it seems some nations got attracted to the gravity side and others to the endurance side. Switzerland's depth of talent in XC is massive but not so in DH then look at the UK it's the opposite. Switzerland actually TV broadcast XCO world cups it's a big sport there.

Finally take a look at the British team that will be going to the DH world champs it is absolutely epic and something we should be proud of. Wish it could be and Olympic sport.

It doesn't help that the British commentators don't seem to know anything about mountain biking - comments about average speed, soft tails and aerodynamics #facepalm

I might have been listening to different commentary as I was on the iPlayer but I was hearing a South African fella and an Australian Women, don't know who these British commentators were, maybe you meant English speaking?

Quite enjoyed having the XC finals on in the background, they can ride for sure! Of course they are professionals, but I was still quite impressed.
Who won in the end?

Schurter won pretty comprehensively.

Re. The media, only coverage of GF coming 17th I could see was on the Daily Mail!