[Closed] What's more likely - that cycling was the only sport with a doping problem....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essendon_Football_Club_supplements_controversy

Gets covered up in other sports.. famous La Liga players / tennis players were reported to be visiting Dr Fuentes during Operación Puerto but nothing was done about it..

One significant money can be made from a sport the focus of the governing body always seems to change from protecting the integrity of the sport to protecting its reputation. Positive tests means fewer sponsors and less money, so the first rule is to keep the number of (public) positive tests to a minimum.

I am of the opinion that cycling is no worse, and I suspect much better than most other sports. Cycling seems to almost relish the self flagellation and publicly shares and shouts about its doping problems, almost every other sport brushes it under the carpet.

Look at football, the richest sport in the world where a touch of pace or a bit of strength can make the difference between being OK and being brilliant, how many drug bans have their been in the public domain? None? Very few at most.

See also tennis, rugby, triathlon, athletics obviously, a whole raft of sports.

Any sport where there's money at stake I'd expect.

I'd like to see more proper investigative journalists looking at sports doping, sports hacks don't have the skills and too much of a conflict of interests - since they require access to games, teams etc to get their job done.

Cycling has, at least, admitted its problem and has taken/is taking steps to deal with it. The other sports are hoping not to get caught but they will. It seems harder and harder to keep dirty secrets these days...

this article is targeting crossfit but makes some good points about endurance sports in general:

http://www.t-nation.com/powerful-words/crossfit-and-steroids

If your great grandfather was hammering in railroad spikes for a living or working a plantation without pay, you're going to have a far greater physical advantage, genetically, than if your great grandfather was a mohel.

As racist as that statement may sound, it's true. Genetics is the great un-evener of the playing field, not PEDs. As long as humans from varying backgrounds play sports together there will never be such a thing as an even playing field.

I wouldn't go quite this far but he's right.

We're very good at accounting for 'visible disability' but we don't care a bit for invisible differences.

To illustrate, making some assumptions, who has the greatest impediment to performance? Sarah Storey who clearly has a malformed hand but can still ride a bike and might well have a genetically inherited VO2 max of say 90, or her classmate from school (not me, though we were at the same school) who doesn't have a malformed hand but only has a VO2 max of 40?

Once Storey is up and running her hand deformity is probably neither here nor there but her VO2 max means she has a clear competitive advantage.

Yeah but aren't genetic advantages/disadvantages just part of the sport? To label them as a non-level playing field is a bit odd.

You could argue that you should only play sports against clones of yourself, who were all raised in an identical manner, but that would kind of miss the point.

Yeah but aren't genetic advantages/disadvantages just part of the sport? To label them as a non-level playing field is a bit odd.

Genetically superior.

Remind you of anything?

I'm not saying I disagree with you, just that it's an interesting perspective. Ultimately, the fascination with sport is based entirely on elitism. If not then there's little to be interested about. It's why elite level sport is more popular than amateur level sport and why I personally think a lot of the para-olympic events are a bit, well, pointless. The whole point of sport being interesting is that some people are born physically more capable than others.

Yes, I suspect genetics play less of a part than most people think and hard work and determination play a bigger part.

Even with the best genes you have to put in some amount of training to win anything at the top level. I think this is a lot of the reason pro sport is popular - us mere mortals have to go to work etc. whereas some are "lucky" enough to spend all their time training. It's this level of obsession that makes it fascinating to watch for me at least.

...or all [s](endurance)[/s] sports that involve large amounts of money have a doping problem, it's just that the authorities have their head in the sand about it.

FTFY.

 

You could argue that you should only play sports against clones of yourself, who were all raised in an identical manner

who would win?

Yes, I suspect genetics play less of a part than most people think and hard work and determination play a bigger part.

It is something I have noticed how you get clusters of elite sportpeople from certain schools and youth teams/clubs. So you get a coach and teaching staff that inspire, help install the right work ethics to go along with it, but then also have the right contacts to provide the opportunity to move to a higher stage.

As for the PEDS it was blatantly obvious that distance runners were caning the EPO just as much as Lance & co in the noughties.

Yes, I suspect genetics play [s]less [/s] far more of a part than most people think and hard work and determination [s]play a bigger part[/s] are not differentiating factors.

This is now a different discussion but if you read a lot of the modern research on this subject, you soon realise that hardwork is something that anyone can do, but being born with a superior gene set is not.

I can work as hard as any elite level athlete but I will never be an elite level athlete.

Yes you have to work hard but hard work is not enough sadly.

the authorities have their head in the sand about it

Nail on the head there geetee, I am very much of the belief that cycling has been through it's dark phase and has come out the other side with a predominantly clean field of athletes. I also believe that it is football that should be looked at in detail due to the vast sums of money in question and also the levels of corruption that are only now being highlighted.

It's already been highlighted that what is seen as doping in cycling is considered fine in tennis (can't remember who but it came up during the Tour), so there's a possibility that the lack of one set of rules by which all athletes must abide could be used as an excuse.

Is there seriously anyone still in any doubt about the answer to this question? Endemic in all sport.

TBH if it wasn't for the efforts of the French police i suspect cycling would be pretty much where most other sports are now.

Is there seriously anyone still in any doubt about the answer to this question?

I think a lot of people are very ignorant of the details.

For example Eddie Mayer on PM was entirely surprised to learn that people would cheat by giving themselves a blood transfusion. Apparently this was the first time he'd ever heard about that as a way of cheating.

I think if you asked most people to explain how drug testing actually works, i.e. who does it, what their motivation is, how they are governed etc, they'd struggle to articulate it. Another good example was around the olympics where so much was made about how they would be the cleanest games ever with the most stringent testing in place, but there was no reference or discssion of the quality and thoroughness of out of competition testing (by national bodies).

Also regarding other sport, it'd be interesting to ask fans of other sports whether knowledge that their favourite team was running a doping programme would change their support of that team.

To paraphrase the great Willie Nelson "I don't understand why people give Lance Armstrong such a hard time, when I'm high, I can't even find my bike"

😀

A timely article over at inrng...

http://inrng.com/2015/08/iaaf-athletics-anti-doping-cycling-lessons/

Also regarding other sport, it'd be interesting to ask fans of other sports whether knowledge that their favourite team was running a doping programme would change their support of that team.

Ever wondered why united were so effective in fergie time when the opposition were burnt out 😆

Ever wondered why united where so effective in fergie time when the opposition were burnt ou

We'll know that we are serious about dealing with drug taking in sport when football comes under proper scrutiny. Not only for performance enhancing drugs but for misuse of painkillers etc to bring players back from injury early.

Have a look at the UK anti-doping list of banned athletes, Rugby seems to have an underlying problem. Heard a rumour age group players get big and strong however possible and then play "clean" when they are with a club.

Rugby has a massive problem with PEDS, as the collisions get bigger, the players need to get bigger. Its a lose-lose situation.
The Cronulla sharks bust should have lead to more questions being asked, especially when you start to introduce horse steroids into the equation...

Had a discussion with a friend of a friend who works for anti doping in rugby. Says that the biggest problem in the sport is the youth players buying drugs online to bulk up and break into the professional level.

OK, so here's a list to look at, UKAD current violations:
[url= http://www.ukad.org.uk/anti-doping-rule-violations/current-violations/ ]Current Voilations[/url]
I think Rugby (both codes) needs to do some explaining?

Had a discussion with a friend of a friend who works for anti doping in rugby. Says that the biggest problem in the sport is the youth players buying drugs online to bulk up and break into the professional level.

Which sounds like they are not facing up to the reality of drug use in the sport.

Although looking at the list of bans, they do seem to be active in catching offenders. How many of those are from the elite level?

http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/athletics/33777915

The IAAF - so far, so similar to the UCI in the 90s, 00s...

and of course the greatest condemnation is reserved for the leak not the content.

Whoever suggested cycling was the only sport with a doping problem?

slowoldman - Member
Whoever suggested cycling was the only sport with a doping problem?

Most non-cyclists who bring the subject up. Cycling's very public outings have made them think that *cycling* and not *sport* has a problem.

Even on here there have been plenty of deniers that there is a problem with sport in general.

In Scottish rugby its the SRU driving youth players to bulk massively. Seen some who at 17 were huge. SRU driving them in the gym in ways that seem beyond possible.

I know a guy who plays with one of the top club sides in Scotland, and openly admits to taking substances to bulk up, his version is that he does it over the summer holidays, as there is bugger all chance of a Scottish rugby player getting tested. He claims its endemic at his level.

I have no idea why he would say that if it wasn't true, as it makes me think he's a ****, not something to impress people with.

I noticed there have been more suspensions under the biological passport system in athletics than in cycling.

Just saying.

There are a lot more competitors in athletics than in cycling. Also cycling was the pioneer of the biological passport there was a bedding in period where they worked out exactly how it could and should work, and I guess from the cheats side how to keep within the margins.

just look at all the squads in wales , england, scotland and comparewith only a few years ago --they have all tuurned into wardrobes...

Lol. It's gone from "cyclings clean now" to "well everyone else cheats too". Pointing fingers isn't going to help roadying sort out its (very large) problem.

Has it? I thought it was just more a growing realisation that it's not a problem with cycling but a problem with sport. And surely the more sports that go through this and start taking it seriously then the more funds organisations like WADA will have available and the better testing gets for all? Might ultimately see doping become a criminal offence.

Doping in athletics is endemic just look at how many have been busted and how long it's being going on for. Most interesting however is Seb Coe's relationship with Nike/Salazar, he so doesn't want that to blow up. Yet we know Athletics West athletes (unofficial old Team Nike) doped and Salazar was a major part of the setup.

Ever wondered why united were so effective in fergie time when the opposition were burnt out

At the time Rio Ferdinand's ban for "missing" a drug test wasn't really taken up by the media other than the "what an oaf, how could you miss a test to go shopping" angle.

Read Tyler Hamilton's book and then review the Rio scenario in your head. The pertinent bit is about what Tyler (and the other US postal guys) were told to do if a drug tester turned up when they were "glowing". They hid.

Changes the angle from "retard England footballer misses drug test" to "England footballer runs from drug testers to avoid testing positive"

I'm sure doping is rife in lots of professional sports. A recent panorama programme showed how relatively easy it was to dope and beat the tests and biological passport

At the time Rio Ferdinand's ban for "missing" a drug test wasn't really taken up by the media other than the "what an oaf, how could you miss a test to go shopping" angle.

he passed a test the day after apparently, i think recreational drugs in football is a bigger problem than PEDs

although theres probably something going on at Real

[img] http://twitter.com/JoeChapmanjoe/status/497422468043509761/photo/1 [/img]

Yeah I remember we just assumed Rio had been doing coke.

Could have been epo though I admit.

Despite the common caricature of footballers, it is the worlds most popular sport, to get to the top in an incredibly competitive field, and stay there while taking coke is far far more unlikely than being on PED's.

There still seems to be an inability to accept the huge advantages of PED's in many sports, which leads to views as above, and stupid claims of "it's all about skill so drugs won't make any difference". And it is frequently the fans of tennis, football and rugby that are in even more denial than the authorities.

In football the rewards and pressures are huge. And the negative publicity associated with a failed/missed test are negligible for the club and often for the individual too.

Coe is sounding more like McQuaid every day...

They are ALL doing it, every sport, not just endurance sports. Look how rugby union players have turned into testosterone-bloated giants in recent years; look how many footballers have got involved in drug culture, look at athletes. The governing bodies turn a blind eye because without thrilling contests and new records the public wouldn't pay money to view sport.

Despite the common caricature of footballers, it is the worlds most popular sport, to get to the top in an incredibly competitive field, and stay there while taking coke is far far more unlikely than being on PED's.

I agree with that, but at the time we'd heard all about Tony Adams, Paul Merson, Gazza etc.

Just from what I've read about EPO, it sounds like it would be a great benefit if you had a hectic schedule of games.

How would PEDs work in footy from a logistical POV though?

Just individual players at it, like in cycling? Or something more organised? I know Real Madrid have been heavily implicated in blood doping...

More money in sport = more doping.
Cycling just the tip of the iceberg.
Ultra competitive people will do anything to win.

he passed a test the day after apparently, i think recreational drugs in football is a bigger problem than PEDs

I'd agree recreational drugs are a problem in football. Young lads + good money + dubious peers around them = coke, see also The City where the formula is the same as is the marching powder consumption.

I'd guess for football (and similar sports) it'd be more about steroids, HGH and testosterone. More so than blood doping, though as suggested by operation Puerto that certainly does go on.

Logistically I'd be very surprised if it's not done at a team level, at least at the higher levels of the sport.

shall we chuck Lewis into the mix, clearly coke (cola) in the first pic, and RiRi likes her drugs

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[img] [/img]

badnewz

More money in sport = more doping.
Cycling just the tip of the iceberg.
Ultra competitive people will do anything to win.

Yup. I think the attitude that cycling is displaying towards doping is symptomatic of the fact that A: Most cycling fans are also cyclists/participants and B: It's a team sport with only a few real standout super stars, the type who would be idolised or placed on a pedestal.

Soccer on the other hand has a huge number of purely passive fans, completely removed from participating in the sport, and in the big leagues every player is a famous star, every one of them is a household name and an object of public curiosity.

I don't think there's a public appetite to confront the truth. They'd rather just watch passively, idolise their heroes, demonise their foes and pontificate endlessly. The fact that they can't even sort out blatantly obvious cheating in the form of play acting shows a lack of willingness to confront what's rotten in it and a level of apathy or acceptance from the fans......just so long as their team is winning.

If you want to see real, obvious, massive PED abuse in sport look at the NFL where you have 18st guys running 100 metres in 11 seconds and jumping 25ft.

Re those Lewis Hamilton photos, that's an average night out in Tewin, Hertfordshire.

[quote=jimjam ]Yup. I think the attitude that cycling is displaying towards doping is symptomatic of the fact that A: Most cycling fans are also cyclists/participants

In the English speaking world maybe. I think in the traditional heartlands of mainland Europe there is much more a culture of it being something watched by very similar people to those watching football in this country (and to be fair, a lot of those fans do also have an occasional kickabout). See traditional 6 day venue with junk food beer (and fugs of cigarette smoke in the good old days).

You may be right about that explaining a difference in attitude - a lot of the anti-doping stance does seem to be coming from non-traditional cycling nations.

aracer

In the English speaking world maybe. I think in the traditional heartlands of mainland Europe there is much more a culture of it being something watched by very similar people to those watching football in this country

D'ye think so though? I rember bein somewhere in Italy and marveling at the number of bikes parked outside a run of cafes, hundreds upon hundreds. Same thing in Majorca, I counted 80 bikes or so outside a bar.

he passed a test the day after apparently, i think recreational drugs in football is a bigger problem than PEDs

This statement is very indicative at the lack of understanding within the genral public regarding how drug testing works and how PEDs can be of benefit in all sports.

The myth that was very sucessfully pedaled by Lance Armstrong with his "most tested athlete" mantra is that if you pass a drug test you are clean. The public still seem to assume that if you get tested and pass that must mean that you are clean. Tyler Hamilton (and others) have shone a light on the fact that this is twaddle, that it is easy to beat the testers if you know how. That drug testing is an IQ test more than a drug test and you have to be lax to get caught. And when you make a mistake or get unlucky you run and hide. A ban for missing a test will be inconvienient but won't affect your repulation (and earning potential) in the long run but a failed test will.

AFAIK Cocaine will hang around in your system (ask Luca Paolini) so Rio would have tested positive for that. EPO has a glow time of a couple of hours (hence cycling introducing night time random testing) so that would not show up the next day.

As for recreation drugs being more of an issue in sports where skill is key see also Tiger Woods, Rafael Nadal etc; their skill is enhanced by their strenght and stamina in sports with very lax testing regimes.

In the English speaking world maybe. I think in the traditional heartlands of mainland Europe there is much more a culture of it being something watched by very similar people to those watching football in this country (and to be fair, a lot of those fans do also have an occasional kickabout).

Sounds like bollocks to me - at least in Spain. Road cycling (as a participant) is huge here.

[quote=mogrim ]

In the English speaking world maybe. I think in the traditional heartlands of mainland Europe there is much more a culture of it being something watched by very similar people to those watching football in this country (and to be fair, a lot of those fans do also have an occasional kickabout).

Yes, and? Football (taking part) is huge here. Which doesn't mean that people who don't take part don't watch - whereas here cycling fans are almost exclusively those who take part.

Not really bollocks, it's both isn't it? Much more participation in cycling (bigger clubs and group rides etc) in those parts of Europe, as well as a much broader viewing audience than you'd get in the UK.

This statement is very indicative at the lack of understanding within the genral public regarding how drug testing works and how PEDs can be of benefit in all sports.

erm i know how drug testing works and what stays in your system and for how long, my statement said i believed recreational was bigger issue than PEDs in football

i never said that PED were not being used as well, of course they are

Livermore got busted at Hull the other month,

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/hull-city/11608450/Hull-midfielder-Jake-Livermore-tests-positive-for-cocaine.html

Young lads + good money + dubious peers around them = coke

this in spades

erm i know how drug testing works and what stays in your system and for how long, my statement said i believed recreational was bigger issue than PEDs in football

Given the money involved, the huge advantages it gives, I could easily believe that PEDs was as big an issue, if not more so, but better managed at big club level to ensure that the players they've invested heavily in don't test positive. Recreational however would likely be far less controlled hence the positives.

Genuine 'lol' at the naievity from the public about this and the head-in-the-sand approach from various governing bodies.

I used to lift weights at a gym owned by a former Mr Universe and then current IFBB Pro bodybuilder, his 'livelihood' was the gym but his lifestyle, home, cars he drove etc didnt tally up with what the gym looked like it made.

Over the years we became friends, he briefly dated my sister and we trained together sometimes....him always trying to get me to compete, me always being horrified at the idea of actually dieting and covering myself in oil while wearing those teeny tiny trunks on stage!....during one of our more candid conversations about steroids he told me that was how he made his money....its something i'd long suspected but what came next did shock me.

He said he was essentially in business with two guys KK and PB who used legitimate supplement companies as the front for the real business of selling PEDs to athletes....he then reeled off a list of names they sold to....my jaw hit the ground, genuine household names in athletics and rugby mainly but he did say there were some footballers as clients....this conversation was a good 10 years ago so what on earth are WADA, the IAAF, the RFU etc doing in their battle against PEDs?....sweet nothing by the looks of it!

As others have said, money is a great motivator and if you can make yourself financially secure by playing the sport you love, worshiped by fans, travel the world etc then the risk from PEDs (both health and getting busted) is seen as being worth it.
Some just like to win and even amateurs with no real money to win will dope just so they can enjoy the 'victory'....there is plenty of information around on steroid half lifes, how long can be detected for etc....you've got to be a real idiot to get it wrong and test positive, things like Insulin can be used with virtual impunity as the test is not widely used and didnt even exist before 2008 i believe?....new peptides are coming onto the market each month and although some of them are closely related enough to existing compounds to trigger a positive there are also some that wont and the drug testing labs are playing catch-up the whole time.

Personally i'd like to see independent drug testing bodies and labs (this is what WADA was supposed to be) but going on from that i'd like these bodies to be able to break the news and sanction the athletes involved....true autonomy.
What we have currently is a farcical situation whereby a lab comes across a positive test,confirms with the B-sample....informs WADA who are then obliged to inform the governing body of whatever sport said athlete plays....its then up to that organisation (UCI, IAAF, FIFA etc) whether to make the positive test public and whether to sanction for the infringement...a lot of the time they dont!
As somebody else said, these governing bodies are there to ensure the growth and sustainability of the sport, the expansion of profitability of the sport etc....catching dopers and harming the image and profits is not in their interests which is why WADA needs complete autonmy, if they get a confirmed positive they should be able to go public and sanction the athlete without the governing body of that particular sport getting involved....the job of the governing body would then be PR, damage control, potential rehabilitation of the athlete following the ban, anti drugs campaigns etc....but having the governing body responsible for growth and profit in the sport AND catching drugs cheats is never going to work well as its not in their interest to catch dopers....it'd be like turkeys voting for Christmas.

Take responsibility for sanctioning athletes away from the governing bodies and you would go a huge way to reducing the overt use in some sports, you'll never get rid completely but the toothless approach shown by USATF and others would be taken out of the equation....i used the US Track and Field as an example as its now only in recent years coming to light that Carl Lewis tested positive all through the 80s and 90s but because it was left up to the governing body to sanction him they didnt....ever....as he was their golden goose, the poster boy for good ol' USA against the Soviets.

There is a massive conflict of interest that nobody really seems interested in solving.

Seb Coe shows he has an open mind and looks forward to an honest investigation into doping in athletics on the BBC

Lord Coe has described allegations of widespread doping in athletics as a "declaration of war" and says it is time to "come out fighting" to protect the sport's reputation.

Nothing like putting the verdict before the evidence

Brazilian Fred fails drugs test

http://www.theguardian.com/football/2015/jul/27/brazil-midfielder-fred-failed-drugs-test

Regarding Seb/British Athletics, look at all them old records,no one breaks them anymore, either no one dopes now, or the drugs aren't as good as they were

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There is a massive conflict of interest that nobody really seems interested in solving.

At least the UCI recognise this and have taken real steps towards such autonomy with [url= http://www.uci.ch/clean-sport/anti-doping/ ]CADF[/url].

Lord Coe's comments, bloody hell, it's like a blast from the UCI past 🙁

Seb Coe's comments are just embarrassing. I hope that he is just playing to the gallery internally for the IAAF presidential elections, and that if actually in that position he would do something about the problem, but I very much doubt that is the case.

One of the issues with the conflict of interest is that someone has to pay for these tests and admining the system but there isn't anyone with both money and an incentive to catch all the cheats in most countries/sports.

The only people who with incentives to catch the cheats are clean athletes.

Governing bodies objective is no positives (which is different from clean competitors)
Fans objectives are exciting competition in which their "team" wins
Promoters objectives are high viewing figures

In cycling the teams pay a levy to the UCI to carry out drug testing and the UCI give this money to CADF to carry out the tests. Maybe other sports need to introduce a form of athlete tax to pay for their drug testing. A very progressive tax would be best.

I have a lot more confidence in cycling that every other sport at the moment.

In a move that will probably shock someone somewhere two Kenyan athletes have been caught:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/athletics/34060603

If people spent more time playing sport instead of watching sport, there would be less money in TV rights and less reason to cheat..

Lets also thank god that that the Coe, Cram, Ovett world domination was done clean on good old British pluck.

I have a friend who coached American teams in Grand Tours in the '80s. He knew all about steroids. He explained that steroids don't make you stronger, they reduce your recovery time after a workout. He pointed out that some of the cycling stars of the '70s displayed secondary side effects of steroid use. The most common is the "moon face," a rounding of the face that is an aftereffect of excessive use. Take a look at sprinter Ben Johnson, DQed from the Olympics, and moon-faced from steroid use.

Stage races are all about recovery. One bad day and you're cooked. That's what makes steroids so popular in that sport.

Steroids help weight lifters and strength athletes pack more workouts into a given span of time. They don't make you stronger, they just let you work out more than you could otherwise.

We done this yet...

http://m.bbc.co.uk/sport/athletics/34758228

Cover ups, bribes, dear oh dear.

Wada threat to ban all Kenyan athletes unless their federation improve testing sounds pretty desperate too.

Is this where we finally realise that the athletes are the red herrings and the real offenders are the old guys filling their pockets fuelled by greed?

UCI, FIFA, IAAF, the list of unaccountable international federations complicit with money laundering, extortion and blind-eye's will only get longer.

I can only think that guilt by association is inevitable and wonder why people like Cookson and Coe have put themselves up there. If they believe they will change the endemic culture, then I don't suppose it will be too long before they are removed from their do-gooding attempts by those in positions of far greater influence than they currently have.

Morally, sport is bankrupt. Gone are the times of fair play and it is with much sadness that I now view any sport where large investment has been made with anything other than complete scepticism. It is now an entertainment business and no different from the televised karaoke competitions that are served to the watching masses every Saturday night.

The public want what the public get.

I see the odious bullshitter Seb Coe is back in the news

And may have been lying g to Parliament after all

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/athletics/36541301

I like this exchange...
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