Vote "IN" camp only seem interested in economic outcome?

As for e-cigarettes read the Guardian version if you prefer (though they appear to thik the parliament is more lobby sensitive than the Commission which is doubtful)

Why ban something the medical profession recognises as much less toxic that cigarettes but not ban cigarettes? Big tobacco wins again.

That article is from 2013

I know, that’s when the debate was.

Seems that the EU government always looks at what helps big business rather than the little guy.

FTFY

Did big tobacco win?

They are most definitely not neutral

So your argument is the industry that supplies these products is more Neutral than commissioners . I don’t think many will agree.

Have a good read up on Jonathon Hill, does he in any way represent your views or interests?

Of course not he was picked by a Tory MP to represent the interests of the UK govt

However once appointed they must serve the interests of the EU not the UK.

Why ban something the medical profession recognises as much less toxic that cigarettes but not ban cigarettes? Big tobacco wins again

They are not banning them they are banning ones with a strength above 20 mg

DO you think the EU would approve fags now if they could?

Whilst one would assume they must be safer than fags the evidence is somewhat weak – mainly as it takes time to acquire it

Safer than fags is not exactly that high a bar to achieve and it is someway short of safe.

You’re putting words in my mouth again, Junkyard, I didn’t argue anything of the sort.

Defending Britain’s financial sector is in the interests of the Uk or the EU ? I say the UK.

Perhaps the Commission should put exactly that question on fags to the EU parliament.

Do you really think the evidence that e-cigarettes are much safer is “weak”? I think it is strong, convincing even.

Safer than Bispenol A, safer than the pesticides the Commission approves? I really don’t believe that the Commissions decision is based on how objectively safe e-cigarettes are when they are prepared to attack a country that bans Bisphenol A in food packaging. They are simply pandering to the cigarette lobby which we know has been spending a fortune on influencing EU commissioners to the point some have been dismissed.

To be fair, that’s already happening and isn’t showing any sign of reversing….

Which bus did you catch!?

If you repeat things enough times people do start to believe them!!

“Theresa May has suggested Brexit would potentially mean us withdrawing from both. “Human rights stuff that is.
And why is that bad?
Its the farcical elements of human rights that put so many people off.
I for one suspect that economically we may well be at least as well off staying in but the ridiculous impositions on our society make me want out. Each and every country should be able to make up its own mind on how its people live. If we want to stop, for example , prisoners voting then we should be able to do so.
Just on be example

And why is that bad?
Its the farcical elements of human rights that put so many people off.

Each and every country should be able to make up its own mind on how its people live. If we want to stop, for example , prisoners voting then we should be able to do so.

Like executing it’s citizens, beating women etc.?

Sometimes people need to be held to account, such as the US would probably benefit from the ECHR

Russia and North Korea agree about the farcical nature of human rights…good for them for not being in the EU and being told how to govern their citizens….and yes I do know North Korea would geographically find it difficult to join!!!

ridiculous impositions on our society

please provide some examples…

Sometimes people need to be held to account, such as the US would probably benefit from the ECHR

Yes…

http://www.theweek.co.uk/crime/46907/us-police-fire-more-bullets-month-germans-use-year

but the ridiculous impositions on our society make me want out.

Really? I’d like to see some examples too, please.

Unless this is about how difficult it is to deport brown people who don’t fit in?

brown people who don’t fit in?

is that awkward teenagers returning from their summer hols in Shagaluf? 😆

I do know North Korea would geographically find it difficult to join!!!

If dear leader commanded the continents to move they would faithfully obey

Just spotted this thread. Aint the time to read 8 pages now.

Addressing the title. It appears quite straight forward to me.

Remainistas threaten economic apocalypse to frighten that the public into selecting economic wonderful at the price to accepting their political agenda.

“ To save your economic future, accept our political ideology“

Of course, theres no certainty of the UK economy being permanently diminished after brexit.
Nothing is a foregone conclusion.

As for not trusting the UK gov, I’d suggest EU parliament is worse.

Brussels recently admitting they’ve got it wrong.

Unfortunately, a vote to remain will only cement the UK into place, after which Brussels wont do anything useful for the UK.
The actions and behaviour coming out of Brussels pretty much forces the UK to leave, imo.

Any specifics?

Any examples from Solo or mattsccm?

If we want to stop, for example , prisoners voting then we should be able to do so.

What if we want to do this without trial or recourse to any redress at all?Is there literally no limit to our power to impose whatever the hell we like?

Essentially having leaders whose powers were limitless led us to Hitler. We cannot have another Hitler as there are courts that would overrule what they are trying to do.
I dont see this as a bad thing. There is an international check on the powers of our govt to abuse our rights.

I dont see it as bad thing

theres no certainty of the UK economy being permanently diminished after brexit

The certainty is that it will be in the short to medium term

We will recover – as we will from the great slump and bankers crash but the question is when.

Junkyard – lazarus
We will recover – as we will from the great slump and bankers crash but the question is when.

This raises a curious point. We all know that in general, the future is a mystery to all. So I find it slightly strange the public ask what will the outcome be. Any answer is conjecture at best, scaremongering at worst.

If the UK remains, there’s no incentive for Brussels to change. Indeed, Brussels might argue that the UK remaining is confirmation the EU is just fine as is, which it is not.

Back to the original Q. The remain side have identified their strongest card is fear over the economy and remain now seek to fight their cause in that particular field. The public should recognize this and keep an open mind to the full spectrum of potential changes we might enjoy once we are free of Brussels, in our current situation.

Leaving is separation, not divorce and I have little doubt London and Brussels can be “grown up” about brexit.

History, even very recent history, suggests otherwise.

Of course the onto facts are current and historical. Any future issues are merely conjecture/estimates.

The problem is that the Brexit boys can’t cope with the current facts – or to be generous are unaware of them – so have to live in the world of distortion (immigration, cost etc) or fantasy (Gove’s speech last week)

EU is broken. I can’t see it changing. Dave went to Europe with what he wanted and didn’t get it.

A ‘in’ vote will just see the Tories accelerate their plans as they have the people consensus as the people agreed with call me Dave.

When Greece gets handed even more money. It’ll happen, what then? We close our eyes and pretend Greece isn’t the catalyst to a shit storm?

Either be fully in Europe with the Euro as our currency or not at all. We must look ridiculous. We aren’t fully in but we want all the benefits.

Out for **** sake.

Leaving is separation, not divorce and I have little doubt London and Brussels can be “grown up” about brexit.

Or more likely, in a panic that the likes of Spain, Italy and the new Eastern European nations will also want to leave, causing a collapse of the entire EU, they will make an example of the UK to demonstrate the idiocy of leaving to other waverers.

When Greece gets handed even more money. It’ll happen, what then?

What about it? We’re not part of the Euro so have no direct exposure.

Either be fully in Europe with the Euro as our currency or not at all. We must look ridiculous. We aren’t fully in but we want all the benefits.

Why? We currently do have all the benefit, without the dangers of the euro. I suspect other countries envy us rather than thinking we’re ridiculous. Yet you want to throw that all away?

the future is a mystery to all. So I find it slightly strange the public ask what will the outcome be. Any answer is conjecture at best, scaremongering at worst.

The sun will rise tomorrow – is a prediction

Tomorrow there will be a socialist revolution in the Uk

Both of these are predictions and therefore carry equal weight.

keep an open mind to the full spectrum of potential changes we might enjoy once we are free of Brussels

If the brexit lot could agree and actual quantify what they want it would help them do this immeasurably
I get the point we wont end if we leave but it’s undeniably true that in the short to medium term out of the EU is worse than the one in it.
Personally I think its fine to ignore this and want freedom or sovereignty or whatever but its not fine to pretend that it wont be worse,economically, initially.

Leaving is separation, not divorce and I have little doubt London and Brussels can be “grown up” about brexit.

as well as conjecture and at worst scaremongering you forgot the fantastically optimistic whilst railing against “predictions”.

Almost all your points were then just predictions of the future – its inevitable we have to do this so its pointless to moan about it. What e have to do is evaluate whether the prediction is useful, informed and realistic. there is precious little of that [ from both sides to be fair]

the Tories accelerate their plans

you are looking at the tory party today and thinking they have some sort of plan over Europe – they could not be more divided. I dont even know what “fear” you are trying to portray here tbh

There would be very little to stop a UK government amending things like working time regulations, human rights without the Europe court, which also acts as a higher court than our supreme court.

We have a tory government who clearly belive their job spec is to further enrichen themselves before performing the duty of public servants.

Do the maths.

I’m in.

Essentially having leaders whose powers were limitless led us to Hitler. We cannot have another Hitler as there are courts that would overrule what they are trying to do.
I dont see this as a bad thing. There is an international check on the powers of our govt to abuse our rights.

International ? what about your mate in North Korea, the on with the funny haircut !

The UK is not the only EU country that doesn’t want or have the Euro.

What court does he answer to that can overturn what his government does?

Are you suggesting this could happen in Europe or any toher country signed up and under the authority of the ECHR?

It is a great example of why we need what I said and what can happen if we dont have this

I have no idea why you think he is my mate he is odious cretinous dictator who should be removed form power forthwith and the state dismantled and replaced

If the UK remains, there’s no incentive for Brussels to change.

Then perhaps we should join the party and have fun instead of clutching a warm half of flat lager on the fringes and whinging and bitching that it’s not fair.

Further up the OP stated that he didn’t want people he didn’t elect making decisions for him/us in the EU . Did he not vote for an MEP? If not why not? European politics is as important if not more so than that at the Westminster village. There is a palpable apathy in this Kingdom against engagement with politics such that we end up with polarised parties and no hint of public service from our elected representatives.

Finally as prominent US politicians have said at every recent presidential election “it’s the economy stupid” and that’s why I’m in.

Russia and North Korea agree about the farcical nature of human rights

Russia is a signatory to the European Convention on Human Rights and is subject to ECHR judgements.

They are simply pandering to the cigarette lobby which we know has been spending a fortune on influencing EU commissioners to the point some have been dismissed.

Whilst your point regarding e cigs is right, another positive report from physicians in UK today, I think it is big pharma that don’t like them because they threaten the sales of ineffective patches and chewing gum.

Further up the OP stated that he didn’t want people he didn’t elect making decisions for him/us in the EU .

Then he will still be disappointed here if his party is in opposition Shirley?

European politics is as important if not more so than that at the Westminster village.

Is that an attempt at humour?

we end up with polarised parties

Well that is – polarised, really??? We have moderate centralised politics and have done for a long time.

Oh eck, or should I say wee eck is being dragged back by Auntie for QT tonight……..time for the bingo cards….

The UK is not the only EU country that doesn’t want or have the Euro.

AIUI all the others except Denmark have promised to adopt it in future. The DKK Is pegged to the Euro but of course can be unpegged if circumstances dictate.

We all know that in general, the future is a mystery to all. So I find it slightly strange the public ask what will the outcome be. Any answer is conjecture at best, scaremongering at worst.

Given the magnitude of the question, I’d be pretty worried if voters weren’t concerned about the potential outcomes.

Love the way the Brexit boys ignore our appalling demographic trends – I hope that they haven’t got public sector ponzu pensions.

Let’s close the borders from these nasty immigrants coming to screw our welfare system and it will all be honky dory. Xenophobia eclipses common sense.

DrJ – Member

AIUI all the others except Denmark have promised to adopt it in future.

Yup, but there’s no movement towards pushing anyone into it- no mechanism to do so either- and it’s a trivial matter to manage matters so that you’re not actually entitled to join.