That says more about the company you keep than owt else !

Ha! Actually 99% of my mates are all solidly in and think it’s a no brainer. However I have to work with a whole load of people and have family members who are rather less informed or able to use their brains for rational thought.

Bugger me, what a depressing thread.

TL;DR:

In: “here’s a lot of facts.”

Out: “Yeah, but, being told what to do, and brown people.”

One thing I do find very amusing is that as soon as you ask the in camp how they feel about tighter integration within the EU and more countries joining it goes very quiet.

That’s just a blatant lie (as evidenced by responses on this very thread).

post-Brexit Tory government decides that now they’ve carte blanche to do as they please

That’s the scariest thing of all.

I’m all ears.

No, that’s the last thing you are. Sorry.

I wrote this on Facebook a little while ago. It’s flawed but I think it’s broadly relevant here:

So, Brexit.
Some UK citizens (hereafter known as “people” for brevity) want us to leave the EU.
Some people are twitchy about our relationship with the US and worry that they’re pulling our strings and telling us what to do.
Some people want us to disassemble / abandon the Trident programme.
I can only assume that these people are labouring under the misapprehension that we still have a British Empire. We do not.
Without the US, without Europe, without our allies, without our friends, without a (probably lip service) nuclear deterrent and other armed forces, we are none of these things. We’re a small, grey, rainy island in the middle of the Atlantic with delusions of grandeur.
We are the awkward lump between the US and Europe, we are ostensibly the Falkland Islands. We are Accrington when Blackburn Rovers play Burnley. We’re a no-man’s land; we are (generously) a DMZ. We have a pompous (how very British), vastly over-inflated sense of our own importance.
If you’re in favour of Brexit (and ugh, kill me now for even typing that term) please understand. For all the political posturing around economy (because if you’ve learned nothing else from our current government, you *must* see that the bottom line is it’s really all about the money), no-one really knows what will happen next. The “in” and “out” parties both cite the same reasons for doing / not doing what they want. It’s a crystal ball exercise.
But no.
If we leave Europe, we turn our back on the one thing that’s still sustaining our global credibility. We turn our back on our modern peer-group “empire” where we’re a respected member rather than the dictator. And if that happens, then we are proper[rudeword]ed.

jambalaya – Member

How will the UK leaving affect EU tariffs?

It would not but we could remove tariffs on finished African Coffee allowing those countries to capture the value add rather than Germany. I have no issue paying a premium for a German car but coffee ?[/quote]

Or wait for it, we could vote for MEP’s who will turn up, do a job and get the policy sorted, do a decent trade deal with Africa and do it EU wide.
https://www.google.com/fusiontables/DataSource?docid=1C-fn6nSe21acP0xJIO1T1x0wohqfMYCQyJjbqdk#rows:id=1
Coming in at 44th in the Per Capita coffee consumption list means as usual with these things the impact of the UK going it alone is akin to pissing in the Ocean.

Vote? For MEPs? But wouldn’t that mean… Us having a say?

Syntax error… Does not compute…. Syntax error…. etc

Without wishing to denigrate anyone who’s posted, I’ve found on facebook that shouty idiots are likely to be Out than In.

Funny,the main argument from the Express/Mail for leaving is how much it costs to stay in the EU.

As for the NHS, what gets my goat is the ex-pats who bugger off to live in Europe because the UK is going down the pan, contribute chuff all to the service then “pop” back over when things go wrong to get fixed.

It stands for international cooperation. You don’t like that?

Umm … no.

Is DrJ about to go DrJHJ?

Is DrJ about to go DrJHJ?

Now you come to mention it, that does look suspiciously like a Masonic handshake.

But, less speculatively, I don’t like the EU approach to trying to solve the migrant problem by kissing the ass of a dictator.

Do some research, Jimster. Very few “expats” use the NHS because you have to pay unless you have residency status, the waiting lists are long and the level of service is inferior to many countries expats live in. On the other hand Brits indulge in a great deal of medical tourism which pushes up the prices of say dental care in Hungary for Hungarians. 70 000 Brits took medical holidays abroad in 2008.

The cost to France of treating Brits is far higher than the cost to Britain of treating French (though there is a net profit to be made from British skiers even if they do spend half their holiday in hospital with a broken leg).

Edit to add the rules

This is actually quite easy when you start, and fun too.

Think of something you like, for example, I like bears.

So, I typed ‘European bear project’ into my favourite search engine, and now I can read about lots of groovy eu funded projects that are successfully helping the thing I like.

And It goes without saying that projects like the DINALP bear project are at their most effective if they’re effective across national borders.

Try it, see what you can find.

Can we have a list of things politicians who want out say, and what they actually mean…

They say…
“Liberate from meddlesome red tape”

They mean…
“All those workers rights you got under the EU like maternity leave and no discrimination, and labour laws?…kiss them goodbye for a kick off

They mean…
“All those workers rights you got under the EU like maternity leave and no discrimination, and labour laws?…kiss them goodbye for a kick off

But unfortunately what the man on the Clapham omnibus hears is “no more nonsense about bendy bananas, or blowing up balloons, or whatever”.

Return of our sovereignty

Those bastards in Europe wont let me violate the rights of the people i was elected to serve.

Ahwiles – I saw the bears, well one of them, a few years back in Cahors – off to its new home in the Pyrenees IIRC.

If we leave the following will happen –
1. The rich will get richer
2. The poor will get poorer
3. The middle (class) will believe what ever they are told.

So many people on the “Clapham omnibus” and numerous European consumer protection organisations (not to mention the British press) pointed out just how detrimental to farmers and consumers some of the “bendy banana” rules were and things got simplified in 2011. However if you want to sell a few apples from trees on your land, this applies to you.

Eurocrats don’t do “simple”, “easily understood” or “common sense”. Euro legislation is a mess, with the greedy and corrupt ready to exploit every well-meaning but badly thought out aid package, incentive or compensation created. When you look at the people who really benefit it’s the multinationals once again – lobby groups rather than farmers.

Economically and socially the the short term is likely to be catastrophic (value of the £, great opportunities to settle old scores a our expense) as no one has a crystal ball the long term is completely unknown

When you look at the people who really benefit it’s the multinationals once again – lobby groups rather than farmers.

Yep – it’s almost as if that was the whole idea …

But unfortunately what the man on the Clapham omnibus hears is “no more nonsense about bendy bananas, or blowing up balloons, or whatever”.

I’d wager that if challenged, your average man in the street wouldn’t be able to name a single (real) thing that being in the EU has affected them negatively. At best you’ll get “ummm, immigration?” which tells you all you need to know about Brexit really.

no one has a crystal ball the long term is completely unknown

And that applies to both sides of the argument. Whether we stay or go, it’s speculation as to what will happen next.

When you look at the people who really benefit it’s the multinationals once again – lobby groups rather than farmers.

NFU is in favour of staying in.

One single thing, easy: the level of pesticides, herbicides, fungicides and so on in my diet. The European food safety authority is firmly in the pockets of the multinational chemical companies who have the same attitude to their products as tobacco companies, lead in petrol and the nuclear industry – you can’t prove we are killing you so you can’t stop us poisoning you.

It’s very hard to provide proof that chemical in low doses are poisonous using statistics where things are compared with background levels. Some governments are more cautious in their approach than others. If a country tries to ban a product they are faced with a challenge from the European commission which goes to its lobby friends for advice and is told the product is safe. The national government is prevented from banning the substance so we go on consuming it.

Do we think the British government would ban them if they could?

NFU is in favour of staying in.

And yet if the UK were not in the EU the British government could protect British farmers from low international prices just as Switzerland protects its farmers. Perhaps the NFU has more faith in Brussels to look after farmers interests than the British government.

I don’t know about the British government but the French government is currently in a battle with the European commission having banned pesticides used on cherries and the import of cherries treated with the pesticide.

I really believe that both the British and French public health authorities are more accountable to the public and more likely to act in our interests than the European commission.

The lobby-sensitive commission has a bizarre record on tobacco: Commission and tobacco lobbyiists

Not surprising then that the Commission wants to ban e-cigarettes even though the European parliament recognises that they are far less dangerous than cigarettes and may heop people to give up smoking.

The European commission want to overturn a European parliament vote in favour of e-cigarettes

And yet if the UK were not in the EU the British government could protect British farmers from low international prices just as Switzerland protects its farmers.

Ermmm I think that idealogically they are tied to the globalism/free-trade concept which would effectively screw UK farmers.
You are envisaging a world where Britain would impose tariffs on internationally low-priced commodities, let’s examine an example shall we?
How about steel production?
This concept of protectionism is really working out with the full support of the UK gov’t

Getting back to the OP – Yes – for me the EU is about way more that purely national economic interests. It is about remaing part of a greater europe, without further heading towards a federal model. Embracing and enjoying our neighbours and working together. This may seem naive, and it will always be frustrating.

Surely these ‘trade deals’ brexiters are always on about are the opposite of protectionist import tariffs?

If we leave the following will happen –
1. The rich will get richer
2. The poor will get poorer
3. The middle (class) will believe what ever they are told.

To be fair, that’s already happening and isn’t showing any sign of reversing….

You are envisaging a world where Britain would impose tariffs on internationally low-priced commodities, let’s examine an example shall we?
How about steel production?
This concept of protectionism is really working out with the full support of the UK gov’t

Good read…

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/03/30/britain-sacrifices-steel-industry-to-curry-favour-with-china/

The lobby-sensitive commission

In your opinion is Boris Johnson more or less ‘lobby sensitive’ than the European Commission? We pretty much invented the lobbying industry. It used to be called the old-boys network and was based on public school and oxbridge attendance, the only that’s changed is that it’s been commercialised.

“they” = we. You vote for the British government. Did you vote for Leon Brittain to become vice president of the European Commission? I know I didn’t vote for Edith Cresson because she was named by Chirac (IIRC).

The current French Commissioner is Pierre Moscovici who knew about and covered up Jérôme Cahuzac’s tax fraud before being named commissioner by François hollande (even though Germany objected) and is now Europe’s tax commissioner. You really couldn’t make it up: someone so corrupt that the French wouldn’t vote for him anymore is named as a commissioner.

Ever heard of Jonathon Hill?, well he’s Britain’s commissioner. I don’t suppose anyone of you voted for him but he is very much one of the non-elected elite who really run Britain.

Edukator that link on e -cigs is from an e-cigs website so I think you need to take it with a large dose of salt

All it seems to say – when you filter off the hyperbole is the commission want to treat 20 mg as a medicine and the parliament does not.

The leaked document drafted by the EU Commission is basically trying to sneak medical regulation by the back door, something that e-cigarette suppliers and users will not stand for – See more at:

Basically the e-cig industry don’t want to be regulated. Not really a surprise that one.

I really believe that both the British and French public health authorities are more accountable to the public and more likely to act in our interests than the European commission

I think the more independent you are the more free from influence you are. How exactly do you sack a commissioner? Its like judges at arms lengths ensure “neutrality”.
Its also true that the EU commissioners look at what helps the EU which may well not be what helps France or their cherry growers.

In your opinion is Boris Johnson more or less ‘lobby sensitive’ than the European Commission?

A depressingly valid point – we have to stick with the EU because our own shower of shite are even worse.

Basically the e-cig industry don’t want to be regulated. Not really a surprise that one.

Pretty shocking that they’re not given no one knows what it their products…

A depressingly valid point – we have to stick with the EU because our own shower of shite are even worse.

That’s pretty much why I’ll vote In.

Please have a look at the background of the EU Commissioners and their “achievements” whilst in power, Junkyard. They are most definitely not neutral.

Its like judges at arms lengths ensure “neutrality”

They are people with strong agenda of their own. Have a good read up on Jonathon Hill, does he in any way represent your views or interests?

You’ve misunderstood – France banned the pesticide which is first and foremost a problem fro French cherry growers who will lose most of their income. But the public won’t be poisoned!

Did you vote for Leon Brittain to become vice president of the European Commission

But I did get to vote for my MEP, however the elected UK Gov’t chooses the European Commissioner for the UK so much like any other ministerial post.
I didn’t choose Dolores Umbridge Nicky Morgan for Education Minister, nor Gove for Injustice or Jeremy “I’m a” *unt for Health for that matter

A depressingly valid point – we have to stick with the EU because our own shower of shite are even worse.

Absolutely.

Its also true that the EU commissioners look at what helps the EU which may well not be what helps France or their cherry growers.

Seems that the EU always looks at what helps big business rather than the little guy.