Vote "IN" camp only seem interested in economic outcome?

Slowoldman – be fair no one ever called Galloway a little englander – though your general point is valid. Closet racists I think is the correct term.

Countries are about two basic things. An economy that allows people to feed, house,etc themselves and picking sporting teams. We do pretty well on the latter (generally turning up with 4 to everyone else’s 1) and on the former bigger blocs tend to do better in the long run. Oh yes and national food and drink – haggis, whisky, sorted.

Most other things about countries (nationalism, fighting wars etc) are bad.

And tighter integration is what stopped my father’s generation being the first in a very long time not to go and die in a Franco/Germano/Anglo and possibly Spanish war. Tie their heavy industry together and that war is more difficult.

I like integration – that doesn’t mean common currency – at least not without common fiscal policy.

One thing I do find very amusing is that as soon as you ask the in camp how they feel about tighter integration within the EU and more countries joining it goes very quiet.

For it, one of the UKs biggest failing is to have not integrated better. I’m not talking the euro but more the attitude to ignore and complain rather than take part, taking every decision as adversarial rather than collaborative fuelled by a euro skeptical old guard pedalling fear.

And I totally agree that it stinks, but that’s a different issue and one we will probably never get to change.

So why is sovereignty on the list? If you’ve accepted that our own political system disenfranchises people to that extent then why is it important if we cede a little bit of power to Europe? The only people who should give a sh*t about sovereignty are the people who currently hold the levers of power, which is why they go on about it so much. The rest of us are more bothered about the economy, human rights, workers protections, not fighting wars, a future for our kids and probably most of all, being able to visit nice places abroad with a minimum of hassle.

Skiing and uplifted MTB, dazh?

as you ask the in camp how they feel about tighter integration within the EU and more countries joining it goes very quiet.

Completely comfortable with it. I like the French, Germans, Spanish, Italians etc. We can learn a lot from them and their culture, and will only benefit from closer ties. Diversity is a wonderful thing, and I completely embrace it. I’d be happy for other countries like Turkey to join too. We could help them sort out their human rights issues and conversely they could help us deal with the Islamaphobia problem. What I find odd about this whole tighter integration thing is people ignore perhaps the best example globally of how it could work for the benefit of all constituent countries. It’s not done the USA any harm has it?

So why is sovereignty on the list? If you’ve accepted that our own political system disenfranchises people to that extent then why is it important if we cede a little bit of power to Europe? The only people who should give a sh*t about sovereignty are the people who currently hold the levers of power, which is why they go on about it so much. The rest of us are more bothered about the economy, human rights, workers protections, not fighting wars, a future for our kids and probably most of all, being able to visit nice places abroad with a minimum of hassle.

Because I don’t vote for those making decisions in europe. For example, why should Poland have the right to veto how the UK government wanted to reform welfare rules here in the UK? Is that the type of power you are happy to cede?

One thing I do find very amusing is that as soon as you ask the in camp how they feel about tighter integration within the EU and more countries joining it goes very quiet.

SOUNDS GREAT TO ME!!!

That do you?

What you mean is a federalized EU – which if we embraced the EU we’d have plenty of supporters against it (e.g. the Danish & Dutch)

As to more countries joining – all of these are very dependent upon circumstances.

We could help them sort out their human rights issues.

Haha. Some real jokers on this forum.

why should Poland have the right to veto how the UK government wanted to reform welfare rules here in the UK?

Because conversely we get the power to veto things they might want to do which harm us, and collectively we all end up a little better off because of it. Or we can just take our cricket bat home if we don’t get to bat first and no one gets to play.

Greater integration and a willingness to actually get properly involved in the EU is what I’m hoping will finally come out of an IN vote.

Essentially, I’m hoping the the country then realises that we DO have people we can vote into European Parliament seats to do good work. Will make a change from having UKIP people there, supposedly to represent us, then saying to everyone that we’re not represented. Go figure.

Oh – that and I’d probably be dead by now if it wasn’t for the EU. Hey ho.

Rachel

SOUNDS GREAT TO ME!!!

That do you?Ignore the haters. Rule Britannia, Britannia rule …

I’ll give them credit though. At least they can come up with a multitude of made-up reasons.

which would be so much more fun if it wasn’t such a serious issue

I would treat any economic forecasts especially over 14 years with a very high level of caution frankly

AND ME!! Freedom of movement for goods and services, people and capital gets my vote.

Because I don’t vote for those making decisions in europe

Only yourself to blame on that front, quite happy to vote in elections for MEPs myself.

And tighter integration is what stopped my father’s generation being the first in a very long time not to go and die in a Franco/Germano/Anglo and possibly Spanish war

Which sounds to me like I’m part of your father’s generation. My dad made it through WWII (partly I suspect through the relative safety of incarceration as a PoW), then afterwards returned to Germany as part of the occupying forces and found himself a German wife.

If we stopped ellecting ‘kippers as MEPs who have the worst attendency rating and among the highest expenses claims, maybe we’d have a better voice in Europe, it was UKIP and Tory MEPs who voted against greater transparency for tax havens last year after all.

As for the economy…. Well we’ve had the government telling us endlessly that is the most important thing , so obvs….

But it’s not just about €$£, in my line of work; cancer research I know we benefit hugely being able to employ European researchers easily and receive a lot of funding from EU grants and work on some brilliant EU collaborations.
Why anyone would want to damage that is beyond me.

Especially over some nebulous concept like sovreignity, that day to day actually means sweet FA to anyone but gets some very upset

I alsi think that closer integration with Europe could be brilliant, action to clamp down on tax avoidance, A proper Europe wide FBI seems by far the best way to deal with terrorism, people smuggling, fraud, drug trafficking etc etc

Pimpmaster Jazz – Member

But on a serious note, it (exit) would affect funding in countries like Wales which were and are being heartily shafted by the Tories.

let’s not forget George Osbournes Northern Powerhouse. largely floating on an ocean current of European money, poured into areas like south yorkshire – identified as some of the most bollocksed in Europe.

I like the French, Germans, Spanish, Italians etc. We can learn a lot from them and their culture, and will only benefit from closer ties. Diversity is a wonderful thing, and I completely embrace it. I’d be happy for other countries like Turkey to join too. We could help them sort out their human rights issues and conversely they could help us deal with the Islamaphobia problem.

1) Closer ties ? – fortunately we dodged membership of the euro, remember all those that said it would be essential. The rest of Europe will get ever closer, we opted out of that
2) Diversity is wonderful ? agreed, so let’s have a level playing field for the whole world
3) Islamophobia ? team us ! Much worse in Europe than here – UKIP 12% Front Nationale 25%, Austrian Presidential election lead by a far right candidate. Europe covered y miles of Barbed wire fences. Slovakia says no Muslims as we don’t have any Mosques. Switzerland votes for no Minarets (only 4 Mosques in the entire country btw)

identified as some of the most bollocksed in Europe.

You haven’t spent much time in Eastern Europe I gather

pondo – Member

“Because I don’t vote for those making decisions in europe”

Only yourself to blame on that front, quite happy to vote in elections for MEPs myself.

proportional representation too, innit?

more democratic than the good old British system…

jambalaya – Member

You haven’t spent much time in Eastern Europe I gather

what’s your point? the european development funds identified lots of areas in Britain as in need of help, so they turned on the financial taps. bloody great taps they were too.

this is what the tories did to south Yorkshire:

then the EDF money came along:

but, that’s about money, so not really applicable to this thread…

Stats are wonderful, but until you provide a full breakdown regarding factors used in the calculation it does not add much weight.

Go to the migration observatory website, I can’t give you a full breakdown in a forum post. But it completely refutes most of what you say, and without an agenda.

I love the EU for many reasons other than the economy. It’s brought big companies like Nissan and Honda to the UK to bring jobs to places where they were lost, it’s put money into revitalising rural areas like mid Wales and the Hebrides, it’s made things cheaper as I can buy from the whole of Europe with no import duty, it’s made it easier for me to go on holiday, it’s improved the quality of the beaches and environment, it’s improved funding for science (including research into medicines) and opened up an entire continent of jobs.

That and the big one- I’ve lived my entire life with peace in Europe. That’s worth more than anything.

A proper Europe wide FBI seems by far the best way to deal with terrorism, people smuggling, fraud, drug trafficking etc etc

We should set one up. The STWEuroBI. Bike thefts across the continent solved.

I’m not taking this seriously am I?

Ignore the haters. Rule Britannia, Britannia rule …

… and there you have it in a nutshell.

As I said. 1950… 🙄

munrobiker – Member
Stats are wonderful, but until you provide a full breakdown regarding factors used in the calculation it does not add much weight.
Go to the migration observatory website, I can’t give you a full breakdown in a forum post. But it completely refutes most of what you say, and without an agenda.

I love the EU for many reasons other than the economy. It’s brought big companies like Nissan and Honda to the UK to bring jobs to places where they were lost, it’s put money into revitalising rural areas like mid Wales and the Hebrides, it’s made things cheaper as I can buy from the whole of Europe with no import duty, it’s made it easier for me to go on holiday, it’s improved the quality of the beaches and environment, it’s improved funding for science (including research into medicines) and opened up an entire continent of jobs.

That and the big one- I’ve lived my entire life with peace in Europe. That’s worth more than anything

Great stuff. Come on folk, keep going. More positive posts for Europe.

One thing I do find very amusing is that as soon as you ask the in camp how they feel about tighter integration within the EU and more countries joining it goes very quiet.

Are we in the UK actually forced into ever closer integration?

The exiters seem to assume that even if everything goes to shit no rules will ever change. Given that no-one involved wants to see everything going to shit, this seems rather unlikely, no?

Greater integration is inevitable. Nation states will soon become irrelevant. NO BORDERS *FIST*

Tighter integration – as in working together, as a team.

Maybe it’s because I’m an old rugby forward, but tighter integration in your pack (particularly in the scrums) was always desirable and no one thought the were giving anything up by trying to achieve it. And it didn’t prevent individuality either.

But then I also got a buzz out of making sure the team won. Stomping off on my own to attempt to score tries was fine, and one on one it might well come off, but you very rarely beat the entire opposition team that way and it almost never won games.

Is anyone seeing an analogy forming.

One thing I do find very amusing is that as soon as you ask the in camp how they feel about tighter integration within the EU and more countries joining it goes very quiet.

Not here. Am all for greater integration.

Most of the arguments posed in support of Brexit that aren’t about immigration tend to be of the “But we’re British! Don’t want foreigners telling us what to do” ilk.

Scenario: Pro-Brexit England ensures that the UK votes for Brexit. Largely pro-EU Scotland votes for devolution and joins the EU.

Result – EU member state bordering England with no border controls in place, plus the possibility of tariffs on English goods and services sold over the border.

Scenario two: A vote for Brexit happens and the UK leaves the EU. A Boris/IDS led post-Brexit Tory government decides that now they’ve carte blanche to do as they please in order to appease business’ desire to cut “red tape”. They cut statutory pay and block any attempts to force parity with the rest of Europe just like they did in the 1980s.

Scenario three:

UK votes for Brexit, UK opts in to TTIP. Post Brexit leadership of Boris/IDS decides to pre-empt US corporate action against NHS and subsequently privatises health service.

All of those scenarios are somewhat dystopic, given – and pardon me for expressing my personal views here – I don’t trust Tories one little bit. Two of those post Brexit scenarios result in organisations other than the government influencing policy.

And who funds the IMF and World Bank? Leaving the EU doesn’t get you off the hook as easily as some would suggest!!

IFS published a report today showing 48.5% of working people in the UK pay no tax at all

I think this may have referred to Income Tax.

Considerably less than 50% of government recipts are from income tax in fact the figure is approx. 31%.
indirect taxation (consumption and environmental) is a similar proportion-VAT, insurance premium tax, vehicle excise duty, fuel duty etc. etc. was 33% of recipts in the last financial year

So anyone who buys good or services in this country contributes taxes, so to say those on the minumum wage pay no tax is a fallacy. Indeed as a percentage of low wage earners income indirect taxation is very significant

Source:
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/517448/Mar16_Receipts_NS_Bulletin_final.pdf

Not here. Am all for greater integration.

Talk to the sceptics. Give me your vision as to what a unified europe would look like. Oh, and one that addresses the current woes of the existing system.

Talk to the sceptics.

I have done, I’ve listened. But Brexit is not for me.

Give me your vision as to what a unified europe would look like. Oh, and one that addresses the current woes of the existing system.

I’ve already given my three visions of post Brexit Britain, all of which are feasible given the evidence. On balance, I prefer to be with warts and all EU.

It’s called personal choice, it’s why we’ve a referendum, not a directive.

Talk to the sceptics. Give me your vision as to what a unified europe would look like. Oh, and one that addresses the current woes of the existing system.

Have you read any of the preceding eleven posts on the page above yours?

But immigrants!

Of which, I will soon be one… from the “European” point of view.

Mustaches, pipes and Dreadnoughts!

Of which, I will soon be one… from the “European” point of view.

Don’t steal their jobs but some how not contribute.

I’ve already given my three visions of post Brexit Britain, all of which are feasible given the evidence.

I think you have a different definition of feasible to most people.

But without immigrants and Europeans who would the Daily (“hurrah for the blackshirts”) Mail get upset with?

It would be chaos.