Vote "IN" camp only seem interested in economic outcome?

Can I raise a pertinent point at this stage.

If we leave, what impact will this have on the price of Kronenburg and manchego cheese?

Now I’m not saying that I’m going to base my decision purely on this. But its, you know… an issue…

jambalaya – Member

.. there was a stat which showed 60% of EU immigrants received some form of in work benefits wth the average payment £6k pa. …

and the figures for ‘born and bred’ Brits…?

5% of our company are Polish, they’ve all made their lives over here, bought houses, spend WEs spending their cash at DIY stores, doing up kitchens etc. They actually fly back home for dental / medical stuff as the standard is higher apparently….

Perfect example, I fully expect all those people would be able to get a work visa (and after 7 years a passport if they wanted). The point on the Health Service I have been trying to make on the other thread

and the figures for ‘born and bred’ Brits…?

Don’t know but they would be my priority

IFS published a report today showing 48.5% of working people in the UK pay no tax at all

Doesn’t mean they don’t contribute though, does it? Their work generates business for their employer which then pays taxes.

And flanag – your arguments also seem to be founded on the principle that immigration is bad. Is that because you don’t want foreigners here? Even though it can be shown that they benefit the economy?

too many people too dependent on benefits

As someone else has said, the state pension accounts for most of our benefit costs – although the pensioners’ argument is that they’ve paid their dues their entire working lives and are entitled to something.

Let’s look at benefits for a minute. The BBC has a good piece from 2014 BBC

Now that’s the global picture of spending. It’s easy to see a chunk of orange and blame “scroungers”, but what we’ve ended up doing is to persecute sick people and in some cases even blame people for contracting terminal cancer and deny them benefits.

The Mirror

Now, we all know that billions of pounds disappear offshore each year, to avoid being taxed. Should we not classify untaxed earnings for the super-rich as benefits too? Likewise, I agree that Working Tax Credits being paid to above average earners in the previous parliament is/was obscene – but for that I blame the cost of living and housing, which have not been tackled at source.

Sorry, I know this is a fair few miles away from the debate, but I feel very strongly about how welfare is misused to malign people.

almost 50% of EU migrants are officially highly skilled

%age claiming benefits is very small – they come here to work or to study

as forhttps://fullfact.org/immigration/do-eu-immigrants-contribute-134-every-1-they-receive/ Fact Check, here we go

Not great reading for the Brexit boys, another domino topples over

Don’t know but they would be my priority

F*** you too. My wife’s an immigrant.

An immigrant in a low paid job, e.g. £15k or even £20k pa is not paying enough tax to cover nhs, police and other services they are consuming, they are certainly not paying anyone’s pension

You have confused one person with the overall picture- can you negate the figures – NO hence you do this sort of attack – granted it might work on a DM reader or the average brexiter but the STW audience is slightly brighter and can see it for what it is ….nothing.

IFS published a report today showing 48.5% of working people in the UK pay no tax at all

Wow where do you get these passes that make you exempt from all tax?

As they also said that 56.2 % of the adult population pay income tax then someone has failed to understand what they actually said
It would help immensely if you said what you meant rather than said something that was obviously untrue.

Sorry, I know this is a fair few miles away from the debate, but I feel very strongly about how welfare is misused to malign people.

It’s directly relevant but it’s lines that keep getting trotted out.
Blame immigration, blame benefits, blame everyone else.

flanagaj – Member
An immigrant in a low paid job, e.g. £15k or even £20k pa is not paying enough tax to cover nhs, police and other services they are consuming, they are certainly not paying anyone’s pension
IFS published a report today showing 48.5% of working people in the UK pay no tax at all
This was what I was trying to argue earlier, but it seemed to be poo poo’d as I got the impression that migrants benefit the UK economy. I was trying to find a figure at what point you are paying more in than you cost the state for existing.
* I thought the police was covered by council tax though?

That is true for an immigrant (from wherever) on low pay. But the evidence (the thing you asked for, did you have a look?) overwhelming shows that overall immigrants are net contributors.

oh god, i hadn’t even thought about the cheese.

Gouda, Ossau iraty, Pecorino, Zamorano?

Brie for god’s sake!

BRIE!

Nigel Farage wants to put a drawn-out trade deal between me and decent cheese, the heartless bastard.

Immigrants who arrived in the UK since 2000 contribute more in taxes than they receive in benefits and other state assistance, on average. That’s based on research analysing the years from 2001 to 2011.

For those from the EU the picture was most positive: they were estimated to have contributed £1.34 for every £1 they took out. This what the headline claim refers to.

The same research found those from outside the EU put in £1.02 for every £1 received.

This is only part of the story though. Recent arrivals tend to be younger than those here for a longer time, and this can mean they’re less likely to be receiving state assistance. And if people come here when they’re working-age and leave before they get old, they’re much more likely to be putting in more than they take out.

Immigrants here for longer contribute less to public funds

The same research looked at all immigrants living in the UK between 1995 and 2012—these people could have arrived decades ago in some cases. For EU immigrants the contributions were smaller and those from outside the EU took out more than they put in.

EU immigrants living in the UK are thought to have contributed £1.05 for every £1 received and, for non-EU immigrants, 85 pence for every £1.

😀

Waits for the mental gymnastics required to spin that in a negative way. Or maybe just some misrepresentation.

IFS published a report today showing 48.5% of working people in the UK pay no tax at all

Wow where do you get these passes that make you exempt from all tax?

I’m pretty sure it’s bull***t. I can’t find anything on the IFS website from today, let alone a publication that states this nonsense.

Immigrants who arrived in the UK since 2000 contribute more in taxes than they receive in benefits and other state assistance, on average. That’s based on research analysing the years from 2001 to 2011.
For those from the EU the picture was most positive: they were estimated to have contributed £1.34 for every £1 they took out. This what the headline claim refers to.

The same research found those from outside the EU put in £1.02 for every £1 received.

This is only part of the story though. Recent arrivals tend to be younger than those here for a longer time, and this can mean they’re less likely to be receiving state assistance. And if people come here when they’re working-age and leave before they get old, they’re much more likely to be putting in more than they take out.

Immigrants here for longer contribute less to public funds

The same research looked at all immigrants living in the UK between 1995 and 2012—these people could have arrived decades ago in some cases. For EU immigrants the contributions were smaller and those from outside the EU took out more than they put in.

EU immigrants living in the UK are thought to have contributed £1.05 for every £1 received and, for non-EU immigrants, 85 pence for every £1.

Stats are wonderful, but until you provide a full breakdown regarding factors used in the calculation it does not add much weight.

Anyway. Aside from migration. Who feels really upbeat regarding the prospect of being a fully fledged member of a european super state? As I think the prospect of the same old status quo rumbling on indefinitely is rather remote.

I for one hope the whole sorry rats nest comes crashing down in a big heap post “vote to stay in”. It’s totally f*cked and very few seem to see that. Countries with totally different fiscal policies being subsidised by the EU, only for their highly skilled / motivated citizens to seek their fortunes in another member state where quality of life is better. How will said countries ever grow their economies whilst such a model exists?

flanagaj – Member

Slight generalisation there. Someone on minimum wage would actually be a net beneficiary of the state.

As long as you ignore the contribution they make through work.

(It seems like I post this most weeks, these days)

Waits for the mental gymnastics required to spin that in a negative way. Or maybe just some misrepresentation

You never need to wait long, more like the mental belly flop though

Stats are wonderful, but until you provide a full breakdown regarding factors used in the calculation it does not add much weight.

You never need to wait long, more like the mental belly flop though

It was a simple question. Define the equation as to what figures where used in calculating the “£1 they took out” figure. Was that too difficult to understand?

Stats are wonderful, but until you provide a full breakdown regarding factors used in the calculation it does not add much weight.

Anyway. Aside from migration.

😀 E2-E4

Who feels really upbeat regarding the prospect of being a fully fledged member of a european super state?

since that is not what is under consideration for the UK, what is the relevance of the question? On its own it does not add much weight. 😉

Stats are wonderful, but until you provide a full breakdown regarding factors used in the calculation it does not add much weight.

So you wanted facts so that you could just deny them

You Brexiters sure are deep thinkers.

The impact of mass immigration is real. My daughter started school two years ago and had to go to her third choice school due to intake numbers. The school that she started had to accept double the number of kids despite there not being a classroom to accept them. The solution – stick sixty kids into one classroom that previously held thirty and run two classes with two teachers side by side. Huge numbers of these families are Eastern European. Lots of the schools facilities including art and craft areas, open space and the trim trail area have now gone so that the ring numbers can be squeezed in.

I was in a primary class of 40 during Thatcher’s reign. Not a single face of colour in there either as this was London overspill Essex.

Better half is a teacher too. Her experience is that ‘immigrant’ kids often work harder than ‘born and bred’ English as their parents appreciate a world-class, taxpayer funded education.

Bloody immigrants, taking all our school spaces…

I for one hope the whole sorry rats nest comes crashing down in a big heap post “vote to stay in”. It’s totally f*cked and very few seem to see that. Countries with totally different fiscal policies being subsidised by the EU, only for their highly skilled / motivated citizens to seek their fortunes in another member state where quality of life is better. How will said countries ever grow their economies whilst such a model exists?

Leaving countries like Wales and Scotland?

On that note, where do you think a lot of the grant money for the original trail centres on FC land came from? Hint: it wasn’t the tooth fairy. 😉

Should the 1.2m UK emigrants living in Europe be sent back if we move out of the EU?

As that’s way more than immigration would allow.

On that note, where do you think a lot of the grant money for the original trail centres on FC land came from? Hint: it wasn’t the tooth fairy.

I think there are more pressing issues than funding for FC trail centers. As much as I enjoy riding them.

What is so entertaining about Brexit BS is that instead of focusing on the things that the EU can be genuinely criticised for they focus instead on making up stuff about issues that may make a nice headline but are obviously and easily falsified. Its an odd, if amusing, tactic…

only for their highly skilled / motivated citizens to seek their fortunes in another member state where quality of life is better.

We’re not talking about Jeremy *unt’s impact on the Junior Dr’s that’s another thread entirely 😀

yes, and in that one folk are moving in the opposite direction!!

So you wanted facts so that you could just deny them
You Brexiters sure are deep thinkers.

Your making somewhat of an assumption there. Where did I say I’d deny them?

I think there are more pressing issues than funding for FC trail centers. As much as I enjoy riding them.

A decision has to begin somewhere. And that’s as good a place as any. 😉

But on a serious note, it would affect funding in countries like Wales which were and are being heartily shafted by the Tories.

Where did I say you said you would deny them?
I just quoted you doing that but hey you deny it if it makes you feel good.

Anyway enough of this scribbling

What is so entertaining about Brexit BS is that instead of focusing on the things that the EU can be genuinely criticised for they focus instead on making up stuff about issues that may make a nice headline but are obviously and easily falsified. Its an odd, if amusing, tactic…

It’s FUD THM, though I think you’re probably well aware of that!

FUD

Admittedly both sides are guilty of this..

What is so entertaining about Brexit BS is that instead of focusing on the things that the EU can be genuinely criticised for they focus instead on making up stuff about issues that may make a nice headline but are obviously and easily falsified. Its an odd, if amusing, tactic…

I’ll give them credit though. At least they can come up with a multitude of reasons. The “IN” camp keep harping on “it will be bad for the economy ..” You just have to look at Gideon’s accurate 14 year economic prediction. I suppose you lot will be telling us next that I should accept those figures too.

Sovereignty

FFS! We live in a country with an unelected head of state who’s appointed by accident of birth, one half of the legislature filled with unelected lords, a democratic system which appoints a government based on the wishes of around a 3rd of the electorate, a political class which is in the pockets of finance, corporations and lobbyists, and a good chunk of the population who base their democratic choices on what the Sun and Daily Mail shove down their ill-educated throats. And you’re bothered about johnny foreigner having some say about fish quotas, farm subsidies and what a sausage is called?

both Galloway and Farage want us out, so I’m voting out

Which is largely why I’m voting in.

The line up of prominent Brexiters looks to me like a collection of xenophobic little Englanders.

Should the 1.2m UK emigrants living in Europe be sent back if we move out of the EU?

As that’s way more than immigration would allow.

Eh? **** that! I’ll be taking out Spanish nationality before that happens 🙂

😆

APPLAUDS

At least they can come up with a multitude of reasons.

None of which are actually true

The “IN” camp keep harping on “it will be bad for the economy .

Because if there’s one thing the last 2 elections have proven is that a multitude of rational arguments don’t stand up against a ‘you will be worse off’ argument for the voters who swing the majority.
They don’t care about arguments one way or t’other just the “what’s in it for me?”

We live in a country with an unelected head of state who’s appointed by accident of birth, one half of the legislature filled with unelected lords, a democratic system which appoints a government based on the wishes of around a 3rd of the electorate, a political class which is in the pockets of finance, corporations and lobbyists

And I totally agree that it stinks, but that’s a different issue and one we will probably never get to change.

One thing I do find very amusing is that as soon as you ask the in camp how they feel about tighter integration within the EU and more countries joining it goes very quiet.