Ukraine

Aha – I thought I saw some posts that have gone missing, thought I was going mad when I couldn’t find them 🤪

Except that no Luftwaffe officers were prosecuted after 1945. Goering was prosecuted but not for the bombing of civilians.

Also some people DO consider Hiroshima/ Nagasaki and the strategic bombing campaigns in Germany and Japan to be war crimes. They were never prosecuted but in all probability neither will Putin be.

Anyway that’s a very useful debate to deflect from Russian actions but probably best saved for another thread.

Maybe I’m an idealist but but executing PoW’s isn’t ever acceptable, treat, detain, question and process them, get them filling sandbags or the variety of other tasks they could help with, details to RC etc, etc.

If they’re hardline & non-compliant, they stay locked up in a cell until they can be held to account for being turds. I imagine most would be quite compliant and happy to be out of that meat-grinder.

Beating the shit out of them and killing them just feeds Putin’s narrative of a Nazi government and military, UKR playing right into their hands in terms of the propaganda game.

But yeah, Putin is likely never going to be in a dock answering for Russian doctrine, there may be some sacrificial lambs if it ever came to it in the form of some Generals. Or they just leave the PoW’s to the mercy of the UKR and never accept or ask for them back.

Which is exactly the aim.

Anyway that’s a very useful debate to deflect from Russian actions but probably best saved for another thread.

the poor ol’ Belgians (after WW1) had to put up with the instigator of 4 yrs of death and slaughter in their land, Kaiser Bill, living in the lap of luxury over the border in a Dutch mansion. But he was obviously a nice white haired old Royal.

Murdering innocents regardless of war is a crime but in wars it is only considered a war crime for those on the losing side. If the winning side has committed a war crime and there is no higher authority to bear on them then the only way is rely on justice which may not be on the victims side. Are those two atomic bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki considered war crimes? No, because it was committed by the victor in the name of stopping the war.

This is historically ignorant. The concept of war crimes and the International Criminal Court didn’t really take form until after WW2. None of the pilots who bombed enemy cities were held responsible for it, that was how it was done back then and it wasn’t considered a crime.

If you look at Iraq and Afganistan, you will find examples of U.S. soldiers being tried for war crimes. One of the things about the ICC is that it is only used when the soldier’s own country will not prosecute. Because the U.S. does prosecute soldiers who commit crimes, the ICC does not apply.

The crimes committed by U.S. troops were, with the exception of the CIA torture program, generally small scale crimes by rogue individuals or small groups. That will always happen in war, but that is a different thing to what is happening in Ukraine. The war crimes there are a deliberate strategy on the part of the Russian leadership, not a small scale breakdown in discipline among individual soldiers.

The U.S. torture program was an utter disgrace, but that too was a different thing than what is happening in Ukraine. In that case, the Bush White House put an utterly unscrupulous lawyer on the job and they basically found legal loopholes that let them argue that what they were doing was not illegal torture. It was nonsense and any sensible person would see it as torture, but that legal loophole is why they weren’t prosecuted. In that case, they acknowledge the law but argued that it wasn’t broken. In the case of Ukraine, Russia’s view is that the law is irrelevant and Ukrainians have no human rights. That’s an order of magnitude worse than anything the U.S. has done in the last 40 years.

I’ve been learning how surviving German officers and specialists made a big deal of framing themselves as experts prevented from achieving their full potential and transferring to NATO advisory positions after WW2. This led to a lot of bullshit being spread, especially about the skills and technology actually deployed.

Thanks, LazerPig

@thols2 cracking post, there’s a good article about the clash when a country alters domestic law to create those exceptions and international law somewhere, I’ll dig it out, was mandatory reading on a career course I did a while back.

I imagine Russia has very similar exceptions so therefore makes it easy to tell the troops they’re acting lawfully.

NASA was full of the buggers!

I’ve been learning how surviving German officers and specialists made a big deal of framing themselves as experts prevented from achieving their full potential and transferring to NATO advisory positions after WW2.

Thanks, LazerPig

Eg

(profanity throughout)

Anyway that’s a very useful debate to deflect from Russian actions but probably best saved for another thread.

Not trying to deflect the debate. If the war crimes need to make sense then it should be applicable to all. Hence, my view that victor sets the rules. Innocents on both sides are the victims.

The war crimes there are a deliberate strategy on the part of the Russian leadership, not a small scale breakdown in discipline among individual soldiers.

Until the war is won the notion of war crimes cannot be established because there is no higher authority bearing on Russia/Putih etc.

Yeah, let’s let might be right.

Or, no, let’s not.

I’ve been learning how surviving German officers and specialists made a big deal of framing themselves as experts prevented from achieving their full potential and transferring to NATO advisory positions after WW2. This led to a lot of bullshit being spread, especially about the skills and technology actually deployed.

I see we have at least one Mark Felton hater on here, so sorry, not sorry, I think he does some good stuff.  This is an interesting vid about how WW2 Luftwaffe fighter aces shaped and manned West Germany’s cold war air force, well in to the 1980s and even 90s.

And in the army too….

I’ve been learning how surviving German officers and specialists made a big deal of framing themselves as experts

Even in positions in their own government. The process of de-Nazification basically stopped in 1946 ish when everyone realised that without the petty bureaucrats the system of govt would break down. Konrad Adenauer Germany’s first post war Chancellor was famous for saying “Until we have clean water, we will continue to wash our faces with dirty water”

No I think Chewy does have a point there. The war needs to be won first. Also the recording of events and crimes scenes is hugely important. Eisenhower was adamant that there should be lots of films made of concentration camps because even at the time he knew there would come a point where people tried to deny it ever happened.

The Second World War was fairly unique in that the trials, imperfect though they were, happened fairly swiftly. Look at Milisevic, Mladic etc – these things take years. We have no idea under what circumstances Putin will leave power, but it cannot always be guaranteed that the Russian state will protect him.

Some good points here re denazification. A lot of people present Nuremberg as a way to draw a line and move on. Lots of soldiers who participated in appalling atrocities in the East went back to their prewar jobs – a lot of them were policemen!

Having said that there were war crimes trials throughout the 50s, 60s and 70s too but they tended to be of middle ranking officers and officials.

Until the war is won the notion of war crimes cannot be established

Nonsense. The evidence is utterly overwhelming. Getting a prosecution is another matter, but there is really no doubt whatsoever that Russia has been deliberately and systematically brutalizing and murdering innocent civilians.

What he said.

Evidence of a war crime is what determines whether it happened which is distinct from justice being served for that crime.

Hence, my view that victor sets the rules.

That’s partially true, The International Military Tribunal for the Far East (the Japanese equivalent of Nuremberg) was accused of this, and it’s a difficult charge to refute. In theory there wasn’t a specific charge that covered aerial bombing, but it’s also true that the Tribunal ignored the attack on Pearl Harbour despite it being illegal under existing laws (no declaration of war, no justification of being launched in self-defence) mostly as away of sidestepping the issue of the fire-bombing of Tokyo and the atomic weapons use, for the same reason the indiscriminate bombing by Japanese forces of Chinese cities was overlooked. (as it was in Nuremberg for that matter of the RAF and USAAF of European cities)

The Indian judges and barristers in the IMT were scathing; one called it “a sword in judge’s robes”.

Mentioned on here earlier and by me near the start of this thread, but the far right in America is pouring petrol with their disinformation beliefs. Which is being lapped up in Moscow. Article in the Guardian this morning.

If the war crimes need to make sense then it should be applicable to all.

Nicking garden gnomes is a crime. So is murder. They are not equivalent.

Filming and Booting POW’s is a warcrime. Raping, murdering and desecrating the corpses of civilians is a warcrime. They are not equivalent.

Let’s not assume that Ukraine and Russia are level on the scales of humanity. One side is deeper and dirtier and a whole lot more guilty than the other.

All this talk of war crimes and the connections with the cuban missile crisis reminded me of possibly the greatest and most spine-chilling documentary I’ve ever watched. Here’s an excerpt. Skip to 5.13 to see Mcnamara talk about Japan and how he, Truman and the American generals were war criminals. I can’t recommend this film enough, it’s the sort of thing that should be shown in schools and drummed into every single one of us.

The full film is here..

Fog Of War – Eleven Lessons From The Life Of Robert McNamara

Proportionality is a guideline in UK ROE, problem is it’s subjective, how do you define what is and isn’t? Only with significant hindsight and that creates more questions and problems.

Doesn’t help with the war-hawks and war porn junkies in this day and age who’ve never seen up close the effect on the human body of various weapons and munitions and who think it’s a game to be enjoyed before 10am.

But one thing for me that is immovable; deliberately targeting civilians is in no way, nor ever will be, proportional. The lessons of history are there to learn, problem is ole Putin gives zero **** about anyone else, even his own people.

Yep – he treats his own citizens in a similar fashion, just not quite so visibly on the streets.

Skip to 5.13 to see Mcnamara talk about Japan and how he, Truman and the American generals were war criminals

For context also listen to Dan Carlin’s podcasts called “Supernova in the East” (especially the last episode which deals with the firebombing of Tokyo by LeMay’s strategic bomber sqdns) about the rise of Imperial Japan, and how otherwise sane and intelligent people like McNamara end up in a situation where firebombing Tokyo is a logical and sensible thing to do*

* I’m not suggesting that it was a logical or sensible thing to do, but how people after 6 years of brutal warfare can get there. Also, let’s be clear, by any measure (either at the time or with hindsight) Curtis LeMay couldn’t ever be described by anyone as sensible or logical.

Nickc – just finished on episode 6 – very good on the human dimension of horrific events, and how people justify these decisions to themselves…

Curtis LeMay couldn’t ever be described by anyone as sensible or logical.

Wasn’t he the inspiration for General Buck Turgidson?

This is historically ignorant.

Excellent post thols2.

Nonsense. The evidence is utterly overwhelming. Getting a prosecution is another matter, but there is really no doubt whatsoever that Russia has been deliberately and systematically brutalizing and murdering innocent civilians.

Yup, the evidence is pretty conclusive. It’s also almost as if the person you’re replying to has never heard of the United Nations International Criminal Tribunal.

I’m still confused that some on here seem to think Putin and Russia are still communist/Socialist. They really aren’t, and that’s why there are American right wingers backing him

My point was less about Russia’s actual political policy and more about how American right-wingers seem to be drawn to it despite a recent poll showing 52% of Republicans, 56% of Trump voters, and 42% of all Americans think Russia is still communist.

…the far right in America is pouring petrol with their disinformation beliefs. Which is being lapped up in Moscow. Article in the Guardian this morning.

Yep. Which is the part that amazes me. Not so very long ago you’d be run out of town for suggesting that any good ol’ boy God-fearing freedum luvin Murican would support Russia.

Now those apparently same demographics are being drawn towards the right-wing authoritarianism because they like that “strong” Putin upsets the librul snowflakes and fights against the growing “evils” of gender equality, homosexuality, trans rights etc

This is the Grauniad article mentioned by the way:
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/apr/06/us-right-wing-republicans-russia-ukraine-disinformation

I periodically check the Fox News website and yesterday it had more articles about Hunter Biden’s Laptop than the war in Ukraine. The war itself didn’t even make the top 10 articles.

So for half of the US population the War has already receded into the background. Unlike us, they are not seeing news about the atrocities that have been and are being commited by the Russians right now.

because they like that “strong” Putin upsets the librul snowflakes

Yeah, I read an a article that describes them as Anti “anti-Putin” they’re not necessarily pro Putin, they’re just arguing against the people they perceive to be anti-Putin just to take the opposite view to keep up the partisanship

Whatever propaganda Fox News, Farage , Carlson etc are spinning for Putin

his war is not going to plan

It seems that the Ukrainians are pursuing the same tactics that worked well in the North again, this time in donbass and the east- hitting russian supply lines in the rear so their front lines are compromised

It actually turns out that this claim was legitimate, with at least 35 vehicles totally destroyed or damaged; mostly supply or fuel trucks, but with BMP/T-72 variant also. This is a serious blow. pic.twitter.com/087UsejCdo

— ?? Ukraine Weapons Tracker (@UAWeapons) April 6, 2022

Whatever propaganda Fox News, Farage , Carlson etc are spinning for Putin
his war is not going to plan

Sadly that won’t change the minds of the recipients of the Fox/Farage/Carlson/etc propaganda.

As Bret Schafer (Alliance for Securing Democracy) concluded in that Graniud article:

“Given that many within those audiences have been primed to dismiss and distrust the ‘mainstream’ media and expertise writ large, there’s no amount of factchecking and objective reporting that is likely to change attitudes once certain falsehoods become adopted as facts.”

Depressingly, it looks like the Home Office is still applying it’s ‘Hostile Environment’ ethos to refugees. A 51 page visa application to be made from whichever country you pitch up in, then a two week wait (at least) to process the application.

It would be easy to put it down to the usual incompetence but it appears that they’re doing everything in their power to put obstacles in the way of families wanting to take in refugees, with some absolutely farcical reasons being given for rejecting people

700 applications have been approved out of 32,000 made, and 250,000 families offering to take people in are sat their waiting for the Home Office to pull its ****ing finger out

I’m absolutely ashamed of this country and its absolutely pathetic and inhumane response to this crisis

I don’t know – American commentators seem to be saying there is broad bipartisan support for helping Ukraine, and this in a country where there hasn’t been bipartisan support for anything for years…

Where the reps and dems differ is, surprise surprise, admission of refugees…

Also agree with Binners – Uk treatment of refugees is shameful – sadly I’m not sure I expected much different…

I’m absolutely ashamed of this country government and its absolutely pathetic and inhumane response to this crisis everything.

Depressingly, it looks like the Home Office is still applying it’s ‘Hostile Environment’ ethos to refugees. A 51 page visa application to be made from whichever country you pitch up in, then a two week wait (at least) to process the application.

Local TV news have been following a guy who’s been trying to get his extended family into the UK since the war started. He met them at the Polish border, got them as far as Holland, and has now had weeks fighting the system to try and get them visas.

Announced today his family – the family of a UK citizen – have given up on the UK and are heading to Ireland.

Absolutely **** disgraceful.

“over 40” Russian vehicles destroyed by Ukrainian Artillery fire on a Russian rear base.

How close did they have to be to shell behind enemy lines? How did they get that close?

and 250,000 families offering to take people in are sat their waiting for the Home Office to pull its ****ing finger out

A caller told a local radio station that he was told to send in a gas safety cert and show evidence of adequate household insurance cover. No one at the home office could tell him what “adequate” means

binners
Full Member

700 applications have been approved out of 32,000 made, and 250,000 families offering to take people in are sat their waiting for the Home Office to pull its ****ing finger out

Inevitable really. Johnston gets to make headlines with the announcement then Patel gets to entertain herself by making it practically impossible to do.

How close did they have to be to shell behind enemy lines? How did they get that close?

Depends on the size of the artillery, I know the British Army have stuff that can lob a shell over 15 miles, I presume the Russian pieces that the Ukrainian use are similar. So not that close in the scheme of things.