Ukraine

Pretty sure the west are sticking to a greyish line regarding supplying defensive military equipment, the minute we start supplying clearly offensive weaponry escalation with Russia could ensue, so doubt we'll see any Apache or the likes heading over soon.

It's just getting more depressing over there though, every day it's more and more misery, all the Ukrainians are getting is death and destruction in their own country, and on the other side, Russia don't seem to care about the numbers of casualties they suffer as they just lie about it anyway, i honestly thought this might calm down if there was a way of backing out for Russia without losing face, but it just keeps going, and we're only a couple of months away from better weather and conditions.

honestly thought this might calm down if there was a way of backing out for Russia without losing face

Putin wants Ukraine entirely, he's hoping that the west will tire of supporting Ukraine, but he was never going look for an exit that didn't involve him ruling kyiv

all that new kit and trained troops they’ve received recently have been noticeable by their absence in the Bahmut/Soledar area, they’re clearly being held back for something

Whilst it would be great if Ukraine mounted another surprise counter-attack and cut-off Crimea or something I'm not sure where you make that claim from. The snippets we see on the news and other sources is hardly a complete picture of what forces Ukraine has deployed there.

I'd love to see a few kilos of offal dumped over Nebenzya's desk at the UN, or, ideally over him at the desk in the UN.....

And another grumble about twitter.. Elon really has seemed to have done a job on this after he bought it. The reporting from Ukraine has changed, no notifications form people I follow, loads of crap pushed from people I have never heard with....

I don't want to make this a twitter thread but it really has changed a lot. Annoyingly.

Pretty sure the west are sticking to a greyish line regarding supplying defensive military equipment, the minute we start supplying clearly offensive weaponry escalation with Russia could ensue, so doubt we’ll see any Apache or the likes heading over soon

There isn't really a difference between defensive and offensive weapons themselves, at least with tactical weapons. If you're on the offensive, all your weapons are offensive weapons. If the other side is on the offensive, all your weapons are defensive. The major reasons, as I understand it, for not supplying Apaches are that the training and maintenance would be difficult and they wouldn't really be much use without Ukrainian air superiority. HIMARS and spotter drones are much more useful to Ukraine.

honestly thought this might calm down if there was a way of backing out for Russia without losing face

There is no way for Putin to avoid losing face, he bet the farm on annexing Ukraine and failed spectacularly. He humiliated himself with his stupidity and incompetence. When people talk about a face-saving exit strategy for Putin, they really mean a Ukrainian capitulation. Russia invaded Ukraine. Why do people think Ukraine owes Putin anything?

I don’t want to make this a twitter thread but it really has changed a lot. Annoyingly.

I don't like blocking people, even one's I really dislike, but my timeline has become chock full of *#@£s and I have actively search out info to get up to date on Ukraine

There is no way for Putin to avoid losing face, he bet the farm on annexing Ukraine and failed spectacularly. He humiliated himself with his stupidity and incompetence. When people talk about a face-saving exit strategy for Putin, they really mean a Ukrainian capitulation. Russia invaded Ukraine. Why do people think Ukraine owes Putin anything?

This is exactly it. Putin and Russia have now created a complete 'nothing but success' requirement, and Ukraine and rest of the world is not responsible for giving him some space.

The ONLY time we should have an influence on Russia is around nuclear security - they will have massive issues now maintaining not only missiles but ships and subs with nuclear on board. They have struggled for years to maintain and secure them, this now creates the opportunity for someone in Russian state or terrorists to make use of the weapons, and long term a huge environmental issue.

I don’t like blocking people, even one’s I really dislike,

The only way to make Twitter useful is to ruthlessly block trolls and shitposters. Parody accounts are a different matter, some of them are pretty funny, but anyone who just shitposts all the time isn't worth following. I blocked Elon Musk long ago, he doesn't seem to have anything worthwhile to say.

not sure where you make that claim from.

It was an informed hunch based on what we've seem Ukraine do in the past, how they've used fresh resources before what's coming out via various OSINT channels and how the current situation is being interpreted by the analysts who've had a good track record on the conflict so far.

Since none of us have a direct line to the inside of Valerii Zaluzhnyi's head that's the best I can do.

At the time I posted there was a sense that the Russian assault on Bahmut had culminated and the ground as frozen. Now It's 8 degrees and raining in Kherson with temperatures due to stay above freezing all week so a combination of mud and the worsening situation around Bahmut and Soledar since then may have altered the Ukrainian's calculations.

Time will tell.

The only way to make Twitter useful is to ruthlessly block trolls and shitposters.

I'm confused. The only stuff I see which is not from accounts I follow is advertising. I've never seen a need to block anyone.

I have actively search out info to get up to date on Ukraine

What other way is there apart from following those who post about Ukraine?

You search say #Savtove, then click on Latest, except Elongated has removed the Latest button which makes it annoying

You search say #Savtove, then click on Latest, except Elongated has removed the Latest button which makes it annoying

It's still there for me - just checked, you had me worried there! I use the 'latest' button loads.  I've had a dormant Twitter account for years, but hardly ever used it until relatively recently. I now use it almost solely to monitor news from Ukraine. That is pretty much all I see, and I can't say I've noticed a drop off.  With one or two exceptions, I don't really follow celebs or public figures unless they are also trusted commentators on Ukraine.

It’s still there for me – just checked

Still there for me too.

Still there on Android, gone on web and iPhone

Time for a twitter thread 🤷‍♂️

https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/new/

Hi Dont post too much but I like this thread to keep me in the loop - I also use This sub quite a bit but fair warning - there can be some rather graphic videos here - generally labeled as such before you click

A mixture of first hand and in the country reporting along with external - as ever its the internet - take some with a pinch of salt

Hope its helpful - Slava Ukraine

The ONLY time we should have an influence on Russia is around nuclear security – they will have massive issues now maintaining not only missiles but ships and subs with nuclear on board. They have struggled for years to maintain and secure them, this now creates the opportunity for someone in Russian state or terrorists to make use of the weapons, and long term a huge environmental issue.

Think this is going to be a massive issue going forwards. The state of some of the Russian fleet already is worrying when you read articles about the likes of the Admiral Kuznetsvo (though that ain't a nuke power carrier) even before it went into service, let alone now.

Wagner commander deserts to Norway

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-64296979

acc to his lawyer "Mr Risnes said his client left Wagner after witnessing war crimes in Ukraine, including seeing "deserters being executed" by the Wagner Group's internal security service.

^^ Was going to post that.

I imagine he has some horrific stories to tell.

 they wouldn’t send Apaches anyways. Too long to train, too unreliable

And they'd last no longer than an other helicopters (including Russian attack helicopters) in the same environment. You can only operate helicopters like the Apache when you have air superiority over the airspace they operate in, and the Ukrainians certainly don't have that; otherwise they're just massively vulnerable targets, I doubt the MOD or DOD would appreciate pictures from Russians of smoking ruins in an Apache shaped hole in the ground.

Wagner commander deserts to Norway

This could be very interesting!

I know almost nothing about tanks - but found this seemingly single article suggesting challenger 1 ranks taken out of service by Jordan should be bought and sent instead of the 14 challenger 2’s we’re sending. Is there anything in that - or are these likely l to be run down / in a state of disrepair / lack of ammo and spare parts for them etc? I don’t know how they compare to Russian armour - seems like the Russians have a lot of kit older than the challenger 1 anyway…..

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/01/16/britain-sending-ukrainians-wrong-tanks/

Challenger 2 is more capable but given the choice of 400 Challenger 1s or 14 Challenger 2s I'd take the Challenger 1s (assuming they're not completely knackered).

https://www.reddit.com/r/TankPorn/comments/4o6fiu/what_are_the_differences_between_the_challenger_1/

Haven't read the article, but I would imagine Jordan would rather sell their 400 Challenger 1's than give them away..........

We should sell Jordan a load of Challenger 2s. They could then sell a load of Challenger 1s to Ukraine.
They could be shipped via the uk , i know its 3 sides of a square. For them to be overhauled by Vickers or Babcock engineering or whoever has a maintenance contract.
Then everyone's a winner, except Putin.

With say 100 mbt in addition to all the liberated T72s eyc, plus a few dozen Leopards the UKAF wpuld be formidable. With decent logistics back up of course.
Probly more tanks than driver's, gunners, commanders though.

We should sell Jordan a load of Challenger 2s. They could then sell a load of Challenger 1s to Ukraine.
They could be shipped via the uk , i know its 3 sides of a square. For them to be overhauled by Vickers or Babcock engineering or whoever has a maintenance contract.

I guess you don’t work in logistics or planning? I expect Ukraine would prefer in-service Leopards fuelled and armed sometime next week.

Yeah, but having seen pictures of dozens of Russian tracked vehicles stuck fast, axle deep in mud last March and April i dont think there's a great rush.
Roads can be mined and pre targeted fpr mortars and artillery, so you have to go off road for safety, where its muddy.
And I appreciate it would take 4 years for the uk to coral, ship, transport, refurbish and deliver 100 serviceable challenger 1 tanks into Ukraine. Then another 3 years to rebuild 100 challenger 2s and get them to Jordan.
And that would probably involve the ISMC lending some boats capable of carrying more than 4 tanks at a time.

Such is the state of uk heavy manufacturing at the moment we don't have teams of engineers with the necessary skills to do the job available. Or the boats or the tank transports or the money or the willpower to achieve anything that will make a significant difference in a realistic time frame.

Which is a shame.

The police were called in to pacify the soldiers.

Wouldn't it make more sense to draft the police to the front line then?

https://twitter.com/ChrisO_wiki/status/1615426859042471936

Such is the state of uk heavy manufacturing

At various times few countries have had any worthwhile tank production.
Most MBTs were designed in the 1970s and have been upgraded rather then built from new.
In 2016 the US developed one Abrams per month using a few dozen workers and also see the more recent timeline on Leopard 2.
It isn't just the heavy manufacturing; materials change with every iteration, systems change and Challenger 3 will have UK armour, French sights, Italian night vision with German gun and suspension systems
Russia isn't any different, captured Russian tanks have also had French sights and fire control systems (as one example)
The difference is quality and that costs. Russia might make ten MBTs for the same cost as one western MBT and as an island nation, supported by NATO with no wish to annex our neighbours, we don't generally need the manufacturing. Until we do 🙂

An interesting thesis that goes beyond the “mad bad Vlad” narrative

https://amp.theguardian.com/books/2015/feb/19/frontline-ukraine-crisis-in-borderlands-richard-sakwa-review-account

See also:
https://jonathancook.substack.com/p/how-the-left-became-cheerleaders

The difference is quality and that costs. Russia might make ten MBTs for the same cost as one western MBT

Attributed to Stalin - “quantity has a quality all of its own”.

Quantity won’t do much for you, if you don’t know how to use it, see the the Russian invasion on the 24th of Feb 2022.

quantity has a quality all of its own

A logic that only really works when you can crank out T-34's by the thousand and have the logistics train to keep them in the fight.

French sights

from Glasgow

Italian night vision

also from Glasgow unless we’re not talking about the same thing

https://www.thalesgroup.com/en/united-kingdom/news/rising-challenge

An interesting thesis that goes beyond the “mad bad Vlad” narrative

The review leans in the opposite direction with Vlad being sinned against by the perfidious West. (TBF this may be a feature of the review's length rather than bias by the authors, reviewer and book). It's difficult to know where the truth lies.

Bad news on senior ukr officials dying in a heli crash. surprised it hasn't happened sooner tbh

French sights
...from Glasgow
Italian night vision
...also from Glasgow unless we’re not talking about the same thing

I'm pleased that the UK is benefitting from this

Thales Board of directors, all well-known Glaswegians 🙂
Patrice Caine
Charles Edelstenne
Bernard Fontana
Delphine Gény-Stephann
Anne-Marie Hunot-Schmit
Philippe Knoche
Philippe Lépinay
Armelle de Madre
(The French Government, represented by) Emmanuel Moulin
Nadine Relier-David
Anne Rigail
Loïk Segalen
Anne-Claire Taittinger
Ann Taylor
Eric Trappier
Marie-Françoise Walbaum

I was thinking of the Leonardo (S.p.A. HQ in Rome) night vision system, but I guess that they've settled on Thales kit as well

That Christopher steele review raises some valid points but

This bit

Even today at this late stage, a declaration of Ukrainian non-alignment as part of an internationally negotiated settlement, and UN Security Council guarantees of that status, would bring instant de-escalation and make a lasting ceasefire possible in eastern Ukraine.

Stood out as bollox, putin has made it quite clear, this war is about capruring Ukraine, I'm amazed anyone still thinks that 'NATO made him do it' is still any sort of justification

Stood out as bollox, putin has made it quite clear, this war is about capruring Ukraine, I’m amazed anyone still thinks that ‘NATO made him do it’ is still any sort of justification

Exactly

He’s written a lot of articles criticising the west re Ukraine, very little aimed at the country that actually invaded.

He’s written a lot of articles criticising the west re Ukraine, very little aimed at the country that actually invaded.

Quite. It amazes me that anyone is able to see any grey area in this situation.

When propaganda is done badly

https://twitter.com/RusEmbSwe/status/1615391927242719244?t=RU4eVhgebelcEL_rzIPB9Q&s=19

(I did check the accounts label in Twitter)

ha ha from that thread

I saw that bit of the map ^ and thought exactly the same thing 😄

So wait, we should want to live in Russia because the petrol is cheaper? Wow that's a great incentive. I bet property's pretty cheap as well.

Life is cheap too 👎

Even today at this late stage, a declaration of Ukrainian non-alignment as part of an internationally negotiated settlement, and UN Security Council guarantees of that status, would bring instant de-escalation and make a lasting ceasefire possible in eastern Ukraine.

It would not. This is just a rehash of Russian misinformation that has been going around since the war started. Why does anyone still take this nonsense seriously?

Thales Board of directors, all well-known Glaswegians

Yes its well know man that Thales is French. However the optical systems will be designed and built in the U.K. by a host of skilled U.K. personnel and suppliers. If you want to call that kit French then that’s up to you

Yes its well know man that Thales is French. However the optical systems will be designed and built in the U.K. by a host of skilled U.K. personnel and suppliers.

I'm as proud as you that the contract is in the UK

If you want to call that kit French then that’s up to you

Semantics. It grieves me that pioneering companies such as Barr and Stroud have changed in the way that they have, but I'm a dinosaur and that's a thread for another day 🙂

Politico.com reports that the unconfirmed US security package for Ukraine (~$2.5bn) will include Bradley and Stryker vehicles and the Saab-Boeing GLSDB that we discussed in November.
ATACMS and Abrams won't be included
https://www.politico.com/news/2023/01/18/major-military-package-ukraine-russia-00078331

Our boy from the village, Fynn Watt, has been busy.
Interviewed by John Pinaar on Times radio last week, now getting the latest batch of donated 4x4’s as well as another ambulance and a van or two. Eight vehicles in this convoy currently being worked on to get them ready for delivery in Feb.
They are all used as medevac vehicles to join the ones already sent, saving lives Far East and front line. They get camo sprayed out there as the ambulance colours attract enemy fire, medics are a favourite of the sniper apparently. One of the earlier transits sent has a bullet hole in the windscreen as if to prove a point.

They get camo sprayed out there as the ambulance colours attract enemy fire, medics are a favourite of the sniper apparently

Nice

Allegedly (from a pro Ukrainian source) the Russians use/have used Ambulances to avoid enemy fire and just assume everyone else does so theyre legitimate targets.

Another crime to add to the list. Assuming the people responsible are ever brought to justice.

Germany isn’t covering itself in glory over the supply of leopards.

Ok, if you don’t want to send yours, but refusing to allow others to send theirs??? I can’t decide if it’s just too many German business interests in Russia or a hangover from WW2.

Bulgaria secretly helped Ukraine out at the start of the war despite a massive dependence on Russian energy and Russian sympathisers in their government: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jan/18/bulgaria-secretly-supplied-ukraine-fuel-ammunition-first-months-war-russia

Shame on Germany 🤷‍♂️👎

Joint Statement – The Tallinn Pledge
We the Defence Ministers of Estonia, the United Kingdom, Poland, Latvia and Lithuania; and the representatives of Denmark, the Czech Republic, the Netherlands, and Slovakia met today, 19 January, to reaffirm our continued determination and resolve to supporting Ukraine in their heroic resistance against the illegal and unprovoked Russian aggression. We condemn Russia’s attacks designed to terrorise Ukraine’s people, including intentional attacks against the civilian population and civilian infrastructure which may constitute war crimes. We reject Russia’s ongoing violation of Ukraine’s sovereignty, independence and territorial integrity, and its illegal claims to have annexed Ukrainian territory.

We recognise that equipping Ukraine to push Russia out of its territory is as important as equipping them to defend what they already have. Together we will continue supporting Ukraine to move from resisting to expelling Russian forces from Ukrainian soil. By bringing together Allies and partners, we are ensuring the surge of global military support is as strategic and coordinated as possible. The new level of required combat power is only achieved by combinations of main battle tank squadrons, beneath air and missile defence, operating alongside divisional artillery groups, and further deep precision fires enabling targeting of Russian logistics and command nodes in occupied territory.

Therefore, we commit to collectively pursuing delivery of an unprecedented set of donations including main battle tanks, heavy artillery, air defence, ammunition, and infantry fighting vehicles to Ukraine’s defence. This substantial assistance to Ukraine comes from our own national stocks, and resources illustrating the mutual understanding of the severity of the situation and our commitment to urgently increase and accelerate support for Ukraine. Having made this “Tallinn Pledge”, we shall head to the Ukraine Defence Group meeting in Ramstein tomorrow 20 January and urge other Allies and partners to follow suit and contribute their own planned packages of support as soon as possible to ensure a Ukrainian battlefield victory in 2023.

Donations list per country

1. Denmark: Denmark is continuing military and civil support to Ukraine. Denmark will also continue to provide training of Ukrainian forces, including but not limited to the UK-led programme of training for Ukrainian recruits. Denmark has donated or financed military aid for close to 600 million euros. Weapons donations and military support will continue in close cooperation with allies, and in accordance with Ukrainian needs.
2. The Czech Republic: The Czech Republic will continue its support to Ukraine via delivery of military material, always in close cooperation with our partners and reflecting the Ukrainian needs. We are working with our defence industry to increase their production capacities in order to provide even more support, especially in terms of producing large calibre ammunition, howitzers and APCs. A key component of our contribution will be maintenance of the already delivered equipment and increased MRO capacity.
3. Estonia: The Estonian package consists of tens of 155mm FH-70 and 122mm D-30 howitzers, thousands of rounds of 155mm artillery ammunition, support vehicles for artillery units, hundreds of Carl-Gustaf M2 anti-tank grenade launchers with ammunition with the total replacement values of approx. 113 million euros. In addition, Estonia will continue to provide both basic and specialist training to hundreds of Ukrainian Armed Forces members in 2023.
4. Latvia: Latvia is preparing new donations with additional tens of man-portable air-defence systems (Stinger) and additional air-defence elements, two M-17 helicopters, tens of machine guns with ammunition, several tens of UAVs and spare parts for M109 howitzers. Latvia is also hugely investing in the training of Ukrainian soldiers. In 2023 Latvia is planning to train around 2000 Ukrainian soldiers in various programmes starting from basic infantry training to specialized courses.
5. Lithuania: the new Lithuanian lethal support package consists of dozens of L-70 anti-aircraft guns with tens of thousands of ammunition, and two Mi-8 helicopters with the total replacement value of approx. of 85 million euros. Still this year, we will invest 40 million euros for procurements in support of Ukrainian military. This will include anti-drones, optics, thermo-visual devices and drones. Also, 2 million euros will be transferred to the UK International Fund for financing the heavy weaponry acquisitions projects such as artillery systems and ammunition, direct fire platforms or armoured fighting vehicles. The total value of Lithuanian upcoming lethal support package is 125 million euros.
6. Poland: Poland will continue to provide military and humanitarian assistance to Ukraine as long as necessary. The new Polish package consists of S-60 anti-aircraft guns with 70,000 pieces of ammunition. Poland already donated 42 Infantry Fighting Vehicles along with training packages for two mechanized battalions. In addition, Poland continues delivery of 155mm KRAB howitzers and supplying UKR with various types of ammunition. Medical and engineering training is also constantly provided. On top of that, Poland is ready to donate a company of Leopard 2 tanks with 1000 pieces of ammunition. Pending this, a wider coalition of Leopard 2 tanks donors will be established.
7. Slovakia: In addition to the heavy equipment already donated, Slovakia will continue intensive discussions with Allies on the possibilities of unlocking further equipment for donations to Ukraine. The effort currently focuses on possibilities related to main battle tanks, infantry fighting vehicles, air defence systems, but also increased production of howitzers, demining equipment and ammunition. Concrete details will be developed in due time based on continued exchanges with Allies and partners. Slovakia will continue to train Ukrainian soldiers and expand the training as required by Ukraine.
8. United Kingdom: The United Kingdom’s accelerated package consists of a squadron of Challenger 2 tanks with armoured recovery and repair vehicles; AS90 self-propelled 155mm guns, while preserving their commitment in Estonia; hundreds more armoured and protected vehicles; a manoeuvre support package, including minefield breaching and bridging capabilities; dozens more un-crewed aerial systems to support Ukrainian artillery; another 100,000 artillery rounds; hundreds more sophisticated missiles including GMLRS rockets, Starstreak air defence missiles, and medium range air defence missiles; 600 Brimstone anti-tank munitions; an equipment support package of spares to refurbish up to a hundred Ukrainian tanks and infantry fighting vehicles. The package is further augmented by continuing basic training and junior leadership training for the AFU in the UK with 9 International partners. With the aim of training around a further 20 000 AFU personnel in 2023. The UK is also coordinating the International Fund for Ukraine which has raised almost £600M with partners. The first package of support from the fund will be announced shortly.

The Ramstein meeting's going to be interesting - will the US, Germany and France join in?

The often shared O'Brien is going with this

https://twitter.com/PhillipsPOBrien/status/1616160409601327124?t=o4rKNzEPAsQJIV6zPXesKg&s=19

Three two-minute reads that may be of interest:
Today's latest US list of security assistance...

Western MBTs will benefit Ukraine and the west now and in the future... https://theconversation.com/ukraine-war-supply-of-advanced-tanks-will-give-kyiv-an-edge-over-russia-and-move-it-closer-to-nato-197592

Russia's information war is framed to bolster the cause at home and to cause western indecision... https://theconversation.com/ukraine-war-as-russia-falters-on-the-battlefield-putin-is-trying-to-raise-the-stakes-197937

I’ve heard on a podcast this morning that Germany will dig its heals in. Also Germany is still not living up to its 2% NATO commitment 🤷‍♂️

We’ll see what happens at Ramstein I guess.

Judging by the way so many countries are getting their announcements out early ahead of Ramstein and being widely praised for their largesse it seems like a coordinated move to heap as much pressure on Scholtz as possible for today.

His 'only if the US sends Abrams' gambit was in such bad faith, the Abrams and the Leopard are completely different in the the kind of logistical train they require (the Abrams runs off bloody jet fuel FFS!) and there are genuinely logical reasons not to send them that just don't apply to the Leopard 2's.

I'm half expecting several countries with Leopards (probably lead by Poland) to announce that they're just going to send them anyway and to hell with the consequences.

It looks like the relatively mild winter has scotched the notion of a winter offensive that I and may others expected to see and all eyes are now on the expected Spring offensives once mud season starts to end, hence the urgency, vehicles will need to be pledged now if Ukraine is to have them delivered and crews trained in time for the Spring.

Yeah, Germany keep moving the goalposts, initially it was no to exporting Leopards, then we’ll only do it if other countries send tanks - so Britain is sending tanks. Now Germany has moved the goalposts and said, we’ll export only if the US send Abrams 🤷‍♂️. Dickcheeses!

the Abrams and the Leopard are completely different in the the kind of logistical train they require (the Abrams runs off bloody jet fuel FFS!) and there are genuinely logical reasons not to send them that just don’t apply to the Leopard 2’s.

It's a turbine engine but it can run on a wide range of fuels including diesel, it doesn't actually need jet fuel (which is basically just kerosene anyway). They apparently need a huge amount of fuel so they need a huge logistics train of fuel trucks, etc.

The engines will need specialist technicians and equipment for major overhauls, more like helicopter engines than truck engines. Probably, the powertrains will need to be shipped back to Poland for overhauls rather than setting up facilities in Ukraine whereas regular diesel engines should be able to be serviced in existing Ukrainian depots.

Also, the U.S. spec Abrams have depleted uranium armour. That's subject to export restrictions so they would have to be rearmoured before they could be exported to Ukraine.

The Scholtz thing is really perplexing. Like, really. Germany changed teh fabric of teh countries constitution to send offensive weapons to Ukraine. Hence, teh first offer of bandages and helmets. Germany has been in a peace keeping role for ever so actively supporting the export of offensive weapons needed the constitutional change.

So, the missiles, bombs, Gepards etc are being sent to theatre. Why not Leopards (nearly typed leotards.... )

Are they mighty in name only but actually rubbish? Have super secret stuff onboard as a risk if captured? Stalling for training crews? No cupholders? Just what is the issue? I actually hope other countries send them as they can talk about it afterwards but they are needed, now. And don't get me started on Swiss selective neutrality and blocking ammo for ukraine either.

Just, what is the actual issue besides lacking the cahones to get it done. Sanna Marin and Katja Kallas have bigger balls than him right now. Playing the "after you, Claude" with America and the Abrahams is just damn pathetic.

No cupholders?

At least our Challengers are equipped with "boiling vessels" so the Ukrainians will be able to engage the enemy having been fortified by a nice cup of Earl Grey.

At least our Challengers are equipped with “boiling vessels” so the Ukrainians will be able to engage the enemy having been fortified by a nice cup of Earl Grey.

I *really* want this to be true. Tanks with a kettle, bone china and Earl Grey listening to Vivalidi before blowing the enemy to smithereens.

It's true, all British tanks famously have a some kind of kettle installed.

listening to Vivalidi

Vivaldi! Pah!. Surely Elgar or Holst dear boy

Er, Wagner..?

Sanna Marin and Katja Kallas have bigger balls than him right now

Quite.

U.S. spec Abrams have depleted uranium armour. That’s subject to export restrictions so they would have to be rearmoured before they could be exported to Ukraine.

I've never understood this. If the US want to help Ukraine, surely they can change their export restrictions?

Sanna Marin and Katja Kallas have bigger balls than him right now

Seems to be the case that when push comes to shove (not that way, stop s****ing) the women have bigger balls than the men.

I’ve never understood this. If the US want to help Ukraine, surely they can change their export restrictions?

It's not just politics and export controls. It's about if (when) one of these falls into Russian hands, and they are able to do a full technical exploitation of the armour to understand its capabilities and vulnerabilities.  This would obv have major implications for US armour in any future confrontation with Russia or countries equipped by them.  Weapons intelligence specialists on both sides are constantly trying to obtain high end enemy kit, covertly or overtly to understand it and develop weapons or countermeasures to defeat it.

Will it end up with Poland sending their leopards and the yanks replacing them with Abram's?

The process for that has been ongoing since August. Needs Abram training to complete in Poland, and agreement from Germany for logistical support on the Leopards for a third country. Germany going from non-interventionist country militarily, to supporting tanks in a country at war with Russia… it’s a huge step that’s hard to understand here in the UK (and frustrating to the point of anger for many in countries to the East of it). Germany will only move under cover of an international agreement… so that it is the UN (impossible) or NATO (incendiary) making a move, not Germany deciding unilaterally. They have good historical reasons to act this way. The “world” needs to act if it wants Germany to risk its tanks in the war (even if they only made rather than own those tanks).

It’s about if (when) one of these falls into Russian hands, and they are able to do a full technical exploitation of the armour to understand its capabilities and vulnerabilities.

Thanks, I realise that with regard to technology, and I can understand it with reactive armour, but I'd assumed (perhaps wrongly) that DU armour was just plate, so not secret. But on reflection, they probably wouldn't have export control if that was all.

It’s about if (when) one of these falls into Russian hands, and they are able to do a full technical exploitation of the armour to understand its capabilities and vulnerabilities

With my paranoia hat on, is this why Germany are making provision of M1 Abrams to Ukraine a condition of the supply of Leopard 2s? Is Germany in cahoots with Russia? Sounds a bit improbable and I certainly hope not!