UK Election!

The guardian is not left wing!  Its liberal and thru most ofrecent history has not supported labour – only doing so when labour has moved right

Or more realistically you are just much further left of centre than your subjective perspective tells you..

Its the political centre of the UK is much further right than in most of europe.  I am lookiing at international views

“Why does everything have to be neatly pigeon holed as left or right? it’s a very simplistic, childish, even, way of looking at things.

Problems require the correct solutions, not be dictated by some partisan ideology regardless of whether its suitable.”

Possibly the most sensible opinion ever posted in an STW politics thread!

FWIW, I think STW is generally liberal politically, and that’s not something I’ve ever thought of in terms of left and right wing ideology (but understand that might not be a ‘traditional’ view).

FWIW, I think STW is generally liberal politically, and that’s not something I’ve ever thought of in terms of left and right wing ideology (but understand that might not be a ‘traditional’ view).

I would agree. Liberal which as you say is not left wing.

the political centre of the UK is much further right than in most of europe

I’ve worked in a lot of European countries, particularly Germany, and I assure you that is simply not true.

The guardian is not left wing!

I rest my case your honour.

I’m sorry, when you said LW policies I didn’t realise the radical was silent ;-)

Kickstart economic growth

Making work pay
Greater in-work security, better pay, and more autonomy in the workplace improve the lives of working people and bring substantial economic benefits. Britain’s outdated employment laws are not fit for the modern economy, and recent Conservative legislation has fuelled hostility and confrontation leading to the worst period in industrial relations since the 1980s.

For too many people a job does not offer the route out of poverty it should: either because work is insecure, inflexible, or low paid; or because people face barriers when trying to move into a better job. Responsible businesses face being undercut when rights are not enforced properly.

Labour will stop the chaos and turn the page to create a partnership between business and trade unions, by implementing ‘Labour’s Plan to Make Work Pay: Delivering a New Deal for Working People’ in full – introducing legislation within 100 days. We will consult fully with businesses, workers, and civil society on how to put our plans into practice before legislation is passed. This will include banning exploitative zero hours contracts; ending fire and rehire; and introducing basic rights from day one to parental leave, sick pay, and protection from unfair dismissal. We will strengthen the collective voice of workers, including through their trade unions, and create a Single Enforcement Body to ensure employment rights are upheld. These changes will improve the lives of working people across the entire UK.

Labour will also make sure the minimum wage is a genuine living wage. We will change the remit of the independent Low Pay Commission so for the first time it accounts for the cost of living. Labour will also remove the discriminatory age bands, so all adults are entitled to the same minimum wage, delivering a pay rise to hundreds of thousands of workers across the UK.

I’m a lib dem who voted labour, and I think we should increase spending on defence…

So what the does that make me? a political vagrant?

How long would it take – and at what cost – to send a cold flannel to Edinburgh to cool a fevered brow?

Everyone just relax – STW won’t make any material change to the UK unless…there are some cabinet members hiding behind some of the user names; Kier, are you there?

I don’t expect any argument to deflect you from your opinion, so I’ll say no more.

fair point – and I wont be able to change anyone elses minds either.  Its one of those things.  People claim to be more left wing than they are and will hear nothing different – same as everyone is an above average driver and a good dog owner :-)

Jonv – fine words – where are the concrete commitments?  all that is is fine words without substance

Anyway – I shall bow out as above

Just one4 more

I’ve worked in a lot of European countries, particularly Germany, and I assure you that is simply not true.

Pensions, benefits and employment rights all much higher than the UK

…And this is why my friends, it’s a bloody miracle Labour managed to get a majority this time and why they are the natural party of opposition ordinarily. ;-)

So does that make germany left or right?

Jonv – fine words – where are the concrete commitments?  all that is is fine words without substance

FFS, we’re 5 days in.

But, FWIW

by implementing ‘Labour’s Plan to Make Work Pay: Delivering a New Deal for Working People’ in full – introducing legislation within 100 days.

OFC you’ll say we have to see what the legislation is, but also OFC in the real world you write a manifesto ‘in terms’ and then when elected decide what you can implement. And with that majority – they can introduce pretty much what they want with high confidence of getting it through.

Kick off!

A row has broken out between potential Tory leadership rivals Suella Braverman and Kemi Badenoch after Mrs Badenoch accused the former home secretary of having a “very public” nervous breakdown.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cg3eqy1r5q0o

I’m a lib dem who voted labour, and I think we should increase spending on defence…

So what the does that make me?

Since that also describes me, obviously you must be intelligent and very sensible.

The right have normalised economic thinking for the Labour.  Centrists have adopted this without any scrutiny.

It’s totally clear from everything Reeves has said thus far.

In other words all pragmatic and leftist options are off the table in favour of shitty market solutions to huge problems caused by shitty market solutions.

We will see anyway. Currently I think the Labour economic programme is destined to fail / damp squib unless someone turns some proper taps on for something of a well targeted magnitude.

Since that also describes me

Can I thank you both. And I’m glad the LibDem seat count ended up so high. I hope that compensates in some way for you having to vote tactically. And I also hope that the Labour government remain cognisant of the votes you (and Green supporters) lent them to get them over the line.

Love it!

Ms Braverman has faced a furious backlash since she launched an extraordinary attack on the LGBT+ community during a speech in Washington, in which she described government buildings flying rainbow flags as “occupied territory”.

She added: “Basic truths about our party are not easy to hear. But I’ll keep telling them on behalf of the common sense, patriotic, conservative majority.”

She’s gone full crazy!

“occupied territory”

Even by her standards, wow.

I suspect she might be right wing after all.

Even by her standards, wow.

I suspect she might be right wing after all.

I wonder what the leader of the UK conservative party has to say about this? Technically it’s Rishi Sunak, still, I think?

Okay so they fight to stop the far-right making further advances in elections, including in the next general election, has started.

Unite against fascist Tommy Robinson in London

SAT 27 JULY: DEMONSTRATE: Unite against fascist Tommy Robinson in London

The threat posed is heightened by a toxic climate of racism, in the wake of the breakthrough of Nigel Farage and his racist Reform UK party in the general election, which now boasts five MPs. Fascist Robinson endorsed Farage, and hard right Tory Suella Braverman, and called on his supporters to vote Reform UK. 

Internationally fascists and the far right have made frightening gains in the European elections, taking some 30 percent in France, Italy and Austria. While anti racists and anti fascists dominated the streets in the week before the French election, and are right to celebrate the fascist Le Pen and her RN party’s failure to win the election, we must continue to sound the alarm at the horror fascists and the far right in the ascendancy in France, where the fascist RN went from 89 seats to 143, and across Europe. Trump returning to the White House in November is a real prospect. 

As the above article points out Yaxley-Lennon has to keep constantly rebranding himself because anti-fascists relentlessly expose him and his supporters as thugs. He presumably believes that Nigel Farage’s Parliamentary breakthrough will give him mainstream credibility. Simply ignoring Yaxley-Lennon is not an option.

Fascism needs three vital things to thrive….. economic instability, a section of society to scapegoat, and for good people to ignore them.

Simply ignoring Yaxley-Lennon is not an option.

Why?

Oh, I see, it’s a counter demonstration.

Braverman – does she actually believe this baloney?  Or knowingly grifting?  Or lost her marbles?

Takes me back does that Ernie

*Wipes nostalgic tear away*

I almost got expelled for putting these up around my school

tjagain
Full Member
Braverman – does she actually believe this baloney? Or knowingly grifting? Or lost her marbles?

Personally I dont think she does but she knows others do, which makes her even worse in a way.

It’s all in the pursuit of influence and power imo but I suppose we’ll never know what the hell is going on in that head of hers. Nothing good that’s for sure.

I would agree. Liberal which as you say is not left wing.

Nor right wing, it’s the opposite of authoritarian. Can I take it from your negative influence you’re more in favour of

Also stick this in your right wing (might be a handy splint as your left one seems rather over developed)

https://www.politicalcompass.org/analysis2?ec=-8.0&soc=-7.74

:heart:

Im right in the bottom left corner which shows how daft that is being as most of my pals who are political are way to the left of me.  Ernie would be on the next page if not the one after :-)

Nope – the left wing solutioin is nationalization

As an ex water industry civil engineer I support that aim.

It’s a general rule of thumb, I have no doubt there are people well to the left of me and more libertarian. Interesting though, from what you say you sound like you should be trending more to the upper left. (my previous post should have read “Can I take it from your negative inference you’re more in favour of authoritarianism” but I’ve been enjoying €0.98 Leffe)

As an ex water industry civil engineer I support that aim.

As a nuclear worker (sorry TJ, engineer) I second that.

Also stick this in your right wing (might be a handy splint as your left one seems rather over developed)

I posted this link earlier What political alignment is the British Public? About 50% are “centre, slightly left, slightly right”, 32% left of centre, 24% right of centre.

Most of us live within the realms of possibility.

Which in this realm means we live in a significant upgrade.

Other, and much worse, realms remain an ongoing option. But not for now.

Can I thank you both. And I’m glad the LibDem seat count ended up so high. I hope that compensates in some way for you having to vote tactically.

I would have voted Labour normally (had a great Labour MP when I was in Hammersmith), but here Lib Dem was the way to go so that’s what I did and now we have a Lib Dem MP! Hope that helps.

Overall though, this discussion puts me in mind of someone who has been starved for 14 years, and now that someone has turned up with some decent looking food, is complaining because they haven’t provided the correct sort of soup spoon. Why can’t we just enjoy that things are better without having to instantly try and tear it down?

People claim to be more left wing than they are and will hear nothing different – same as everyone is an above average driver and a good dog owner 

im not sure that’s as good a comparison as you think.  People who are quite left leaning certainly seem to be in some sort of race to out-left each other but people on the right consider it a massive insult to describe people as left wing, a sign of weakness.

The idea that two words from the French Revolution which were intended to divide views into a pair of binary states are today used to describe a spectrum of complex modern politics is farcical; the idea that one should be virtuous and the other despised is just tribal nonsense.

I’m very left wing according to a couple of friends & acquittances, these folk believe in stuff like the “small state”, that there’s too many of “them” here and posted up Reform supporting material during the election – so am I really left wing?

 and I think we should increase spending on defence…

Just in general or on specific things?

Setting arbitrary percentages of budget to spend on something will just create waste and misspend plus mean money isn’t available for other areas that may actually be more important.

In fact if we wanted to increase defence spending we could just allocate costs that other countries allocate to “defence”, that we currently don’t, like veterans ‘healthcare’.

Sorry to bring facts into a ‘belief’ but nearly half the USA’s ‘defence’ spending is veterans based – looks to me like the UK is already spending enough.

I’m very left wing according to a couple of friends & acquittances, these folk believe in stuff like the “small state”, that there’s too many of “them” here and posted up Reform supporting material during the election – so am I really left wing?

I don’t know.  You are not as right wing as them but that doesn’t mean you are left wing.  What stuff do you believe in?

The idea that two words from the French Revolution which were intended to divide views into a pair of binary states are today used to describe a spectrum of complex modern politics is farcical; the idea that one should be virtuous and the other despised is just tribal nonsense.

Yes it is over simplified but it gives you a starting point on the larger intentions of a party or fundamental beliefs of a person.  Whether you are tribal about it is up to you.

This article by YouGov shows the ‘right-wing things’ that left-wing people believe in and vice versa.  To further complicate the picture, studies have shown that if Labour (left wing govts) do things now that some right wingers think are OK or good, then they’re more likely to believe that they are ‘stolen’ right wing policies and it reinforces their belief that right wing policies are the correct ones, and vice versa. 

As a rule, everyone believes they are closer to the centre than they are, and others are further to the extremes.

This is interesting

If Reform hadnt won and based on polling asking who people would have voted for if Reform werent standing, and assumes 25% of Reforms wouldnt have voted,

I went through each seat from the election to see how the results would change if Reform UK hadn't stood any candidates and the result (to my surprise) didn't change quite as dramatically as I thought they would:

LAB: 384 (-27)
CON: 162 (+41)
LDM: 64 (-8)
SNP: 7 (-2) pic.twitter.com/YQjD34g3us

— liv ? (@liveraldemocrat) July 10, 2024

polling from moreincommon after the GE

Using this? pic.twitter.com/NiDdPz1gL2

— MD. We’ve never had it so bad. ?????? (@surfdoctor) July 10, 2024

It seems that being left wing on this thread is like the wheel size wars from a few years ago – pick your size and then be a dick about it

I picked full 29er, I wonder if that has any correlation with me being a large state, socially liberal, left leaning centrist?