TUPE advice please. Being transferred to a different site.

The bus depot where I work has just been sold to another bus company.
From the letter they have given us all today, it looks like our engineering department (that’s me) will be closed down and some of us moved to a different depot.

My existing contract says something along the lines of “You will be based at Kidderminster.You may be required to work at another depot as a temporary arrangement. This will be on a voluntary basis.”
I’m not going to volunteer to work at a depot well beyond cycling distance, so does that mean I will automatically be made redundant ?

Is there any obligation for my new employer to pay a travelling allowance on top of my normal wage to cover the extra expense of driving if I do volunteer, as I would consider transferring if it was worth it and I could carry on earning money while looking for something else more local ?

It looks like some of us are going to be made redundant anyway, so I guess if I’m uncooperative, I’ll simply be moved from the transfer list to the redundancy list.

The TUPE transfer is kinda irrelevant, as it means that you are transferring to a new employer under the same terms and conditions* as now. Therefore your entitlements regarding relocation payments etc. will be exactly what they are now, as if your previous employer had decided to make the move.

As for what those are, dunno without seeing your contract / terms and conditions / staff policies etc.

Much as I’m not a big fan of them a lot of the time, this is the sort of situation where a recognised trade union can be handy, if you have one and are a member, talk to them.

*for the most part, pension entitlements aren’t covered by TUPE.

bump for the union rep

went through the same thing last year
just get copies of all you contract and standard practice etc for your work

ime your new place will just assume that you are on their T&Cs (can work in your favour if so keep quiet!)

ultimately made redundant just b4 xmas but managed to get a decent redundancy out of it by union reps and being chummy to HR people (at both places)

I feel for you, I’m going through the same thing.
A move to a new office doubling my commute and I got offered £20 a week to cover costs. Realistically this wouldn’t even cover fuel!

Until last week they had me by the balls, put my CV out to a few agencies and now lets say the tables have turned 😀

My only advise would be as pro-active as you can. Get your CV out there ASAP just in case, you’ve got nothing to loose. Don’t be an ass or stubborn at work, try to work on a mutually convenient solution. If they’re not seen to be accommodating then as a last ditch effort you could try constructive dismissal?

If they’re not seen to be accommodating then as a last ditch effort you could try constructive dismissal?

Not a strategy I’d advise. If it’s for a legitimate reason, they can close down sites and relocate work all they like. If they are keeping the site open and just telling you that you have to go and work 50 miles away that would be different, but that doesn’t seem to be the scenario here. If they try and relocate you and don’t offer redundancy as an alternative then you might be onto something but, again, it sounds like redundancy is possible / likely so no, doesn’t sound anywhere near constructive dismissal from the OP.

Starting price ought to be 45ppm for each additional mile (there and back) for the first two years – and tax free, as if they were a business expense.

MTG have you been bought out by Stagecoach like other bits of Firstgroup?

It can depend upon what they class as a reasonable commuting distance.

Is there any obligation for my new employer to pay a travelling allowance

Nope.

If the other depot is within about twenty miles of your existing one, I’d say that they can just tell you that your place of work has changed; if you don’t accept it would be seen as a resignation, not redundancy.

I speak from experience of office moves and closures – Gloucester office closed, everyone moved to Cheltenham office, no expenses paid for example. Also, department moved from Cheltenham to Swindon, again, no expenses. All from a large employer with full involvement of unions too.

Short term if your normal work is specified in your contract then the second site is just being visited, so either your employer can pay travel costs or you can claim them back via a self assessment at up to 45p per mile.

Long term (more than a year) is a longer story but in any event the short term solution should give you some breathing space to look around for a new role if you want to without getting stiffed on travel costs.

Abellio London Ltd (Formerly Travel London Ltd) v Musse and others, EAT

If you were to leave then an EAT would reasonably see this as a dismissal, and unless there was an ETO reason for the change, rather than being specifically due to the transfer it self, then it would be automatically ruled unfair.

The material detriment clause in the TUPE regulations must be considered from the employees perspective, and an additional commute of an hour each day or whatever, would almost certainly constitute this.

Had this we got TUPED/DUPED,worked from chester lived about 16 miles away on a train route and cycleable which i did for 4 years.

They then tuped duped us to a base in northwich no transport there by train and about 15 miles further than chester.

So either travel with no allowance or leave, as i hadnt been there for 2 years.

Same thing is happening now with first selling out to Stagecoach, wirral depot and chester probably closing and moving to a new shed in the port, in between the two palces, so one depot, and two nice prime depots to sell, with probably few staff willing to transfer, a good little earner for my favourite bus comapny

Thanks everyone.
I currently work for First, It’s Rotala/Red Diamond who have bought Kidderminster and Redditch.
After months of rumours, we only got official notice that they had bought the two depots yesterday. We all assumed they were going to expand the business and take on more routes, until we got notice this morning that they are going to do all maintenance at their existing Redditch depot and transfer or make redundant First’s mechanics at Redditch and Kidderminster.

Nobody wants to travel further for the same money, but it’s worse for me as I see my commute as 1.5+ hours of training a day.
Even if they pay me 45ppm to drive my Land Rover to Redditch, or I buy a cheap to run motorbike, it’s still 1.5 hours gone out of my day plus the problem of then motivating myself to go out on the bike, whereas now I’ve got to cycle every day whether I want to or not.

One of our guys covered for a staff shortage at Hereford for a while and got travelling allowance for that.
Some drivers transferred to Worcester once to balance out a surplus/shortage of staff at the two depots and got a lump sum to cover additional travelling.
From what everyone’s saying here, it looks like Red Diamond have got no obligation to pay me to travel further to Redditch.

From a training POV one (or more) longer one per week could well be better than beating youself every day.

Similar situation to yourself, so I listen to podcasts when I drive of programs that I’d otherwise miss, and get in a 50 mile round trip when I cycle. In summer that can be 3 days a week. I do have the benefit of a relatively safe route though, which you may not have…

Oh, and I didn’t get any money for the compulsory transfer.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hereford-worcester-21183753

Like i said above, its a win win situation for the new owners, they get the old buses and routes,and 2 depots they can sell, and amalgamate all the services into one depot, that they already run, they then make the transfered staff move, or they take redundancy, so a cutback in wages/overheads etc.

But sadly its not much fun for the existing hard working staff, and for the customers of the bus company while the changes go ahead.

Best wishes fior the future Graham

BBC have used a stock photo there. There’s no deckers at Kidderminster and none that new at redditch. 😀

Kidderminster is being kept on as an outstation. There will still be buses based there, but no maintenance department. We are guessing that they might keep one or two mechanics on just to make sure all the buses start every morning and go out the gate with all the lights working.

If it’s for a legitimate reason, they can close down sites and relocate work all they like

Graham TUPE is too complicated to go into detail here but if your base is stipulated in your contract and it stipulates what happens if they change your base then the new company has to stick to this

If they cannot force you to move – ie it voluntary in your contract and they move I am uncertain what happens legally but I would imagine its redundancy. You cannot force them to keep the depot open and they cannot force you to move- They may be able to argue it is resigning but I imagine it is risky but this requires some legal input
They should pay as per your contract which will be HMRC is currently 45 p per mile

Union rep with 4 TUPES under my belt

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dont assume you will get redundancy just because its beyond cycling distance. if you dont want to go and you own a car it maybe within reasonable cummute distance by other means of transport.

its important to get all these questions answered in formal consultation and documented so you know where you stand, it will help, you, your colleagues and your new and old employer.

dont assume you will get redundancy just because its beyond cycling distance. if you dont want to go and you own a car it maybe within reasonable cummute distance by other means of transport.

In TUPE, material detriment is from the perspective of the employee, not the employer/transferer and as such it os down to him if there is a problem…

if he was going to be out of pocket for using his car then im sure this would be detrimental to him and lead to redundancy if he didnt want to go, but what if they paid the travel expenses and driving was as quick as cycling. im sure there are other factors to consider that would be favorable to the employee but you might not be as confident in risking resigning and going the constructive dismissal route.

dont listen to the lawyers and hr people on here, get the answers through consultation. it will probably all work out just fine

dont listen to the lawyers and hr people on here, get the answers through consultation. it will probably all work out just fine

Shudder.

Not an HR person, not a lawyer (union rep with two TUPE transfers under my belt)

And, surely when the information comes through consultation, then it will be from an HR person, perhaps with some input from a lawyer.

The company will put forward what they want you to think, it’s much more important to note what is possible, which is always going to come from outside – my first port of call would be my union.

dont listen to the lawyers and hr people on here, get the answers through consultation. it will probably all work out just fine

Listen to everyone informed it is a very complicated process generally and beyond most folk to be certain on many issues,

To repeat the contract you are currently employed with is still your contract whatever it says about changing bases is what applies here.

Its possible they could consider you refusing a job offer if you refuse to move but if it says its voluntary to move then you should be made redundant as that role does not exist.

Can they make you move – generally yes
IIRC 90 minutes [ each way] was called reasonable by public transport for a change

Think you may be getting TUPE mixed up with transfer of location.

TUPE is broadly where your contact gets transfered from one employer to another, but you get to keep your existing terms for a period of time (2 years?) before transfering to the new employers contract.

Sounds like your current employer just wants you to change location. If thats less than 10 miles you just have to accept it. If more, its either a negotiated financial amount or redundancy.

geez bokonon

And, surely when the information comes through consultation, then it will be from an HR person, perhaps with some input from a lawyer.

maybe but its a two way process and the answer from here are speculation without all the facts, not sure why your shuddering, the op has no idea who we are, wouldnt be quite right if i said, dont consult or listen to hr or lawyer, but listen to stw forum and your union now would it.

but listen to everyone to make your own mind up is probably a better idea.

OP you also said that some maybe made redundant anyway, if thats the case, then they may run a voluntary redundancy program, give you a bit of extra money and make their selection process easier. certainly worth consulting on or talking to your union about, if you are a member?

More info on this governmnet site.

https://www.gov.uk/employer-relocation-your-rights

Depends on if your existing contract has a mobility claus in it.

Sounds like your current employer just wants you to change location. If thats less than 10 miles you just have to accept it. If more, its either a negotiated financial amount or redundancy.

Are you sure its 10 miles? As 15 miles was the old ‘too far to travel’ distance.

Thanks again for the replies.
There’s a union meeting on Tuesday to try to find out more details of what’s going to happen. I’m not in a union, but I think it’s going to be an open meeting that anyone can attend.

We’ve got 17 buses in service every day at Kidderminster.
The drivers do a walk round check before they set off and there is always something wrong with some of them. Non start, bulbs out, windscreen washers not working and so on.
There’s always minor repairs needed during the day and when they finish and hand in their defect cards. Accident damage, bulbs again, heaters not working etc.
It seems unlikely that Diamond will want no mechanics at all at Kidderminster. I can’t see them sending a mechanic 15 miles from Redditch just to change a bulb.
It’s all guesswork at the moment, but if the current five mechanics, three service crew and one cleaner gets reduced to say, two combined mechanics/refuellers/cleaners, there’s a chance I might stay where I am at the same wage, just doing a slightly different job.

An update for anyone who’s interested.

It turns out that of the five mechanics working at Kidderminster, only one is in the traditional “wife, kids and mortgage, needs a regular full time job” situation.
Coupled with the only other bus company in town advertising two bus mechanics vacancies, it was quite amusing how quickly the new managements attitude went from “You’re lucky you’ve been offered a job at Redditch at all” to “We’ll pay you £15 a day travelling expenses”. 😀

It’s not ideal, and things haven’t settled down yet with possible promotions and resignations still to come, but it’s about as good as could be expected.

Better than a kick in the teeth as they say!

How’s your building project coming along?

Yes, Kidderminster garage used to do a lot of repairs for other First depots at Redditch, Worcester and Hereford.
With the loss of that work, no one could deny that we had too many mechanics on site for the buses we were running.

Everyone moaned about the changes Diamond were making, but as I understand it, they could have just made two positions redundant at Kidderminster and advertised two vacancies at Redditch on the open job market.
Even the original offer of a transfer on rota with no travelling allowance was better than that.

Building work is progressing.
Nailing on boards today, in between coming inside to stand by the fire and post nonsense on the internet.
It’s starting to look like a house.

interested – can I ask the pitch on that roof and how your making it please?

About to be made redundent and going to make a shed in the back garden whilst looking for work.

As an aside Graham, one of these really improves the accuracy of a mitre saw (length stops etc).

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Silverline-Hi-Spec-580483-Universal-Mitre/dp/B0015NRKFY

I don’t know the exact angle without checking. It’s about 1m fall over 4m. It will be a 3 layers of felt as if it was a flat roof.

I’ve managed alright with the saw on a Workmate and two roller stands.
There’s so many odd lengths with the slope of the roof that I don’t think a length stop would have helped all that much.

Looking good!