Tim Farron

But assuming we talking about it being a sin according to the bible it seems pretty clear that gay sex is a sin as it is written down in black and white and there hasn’t been any scripture since to remove it’s sin status :

http://www.livingout.org/the-bible-and-ssa

so if he had said it was a sin to start with, would that have been acceptable ?

And how can a gay person be a christian unless they are renouncing the validity of the scriptures ? It seems to me that is just as, or actually probably a lot more, hypocritical. They should choose a different religion/fairy-tale.

on the day of judgment people will give account for every careless word they speak,

Like describing a Whale as a Fish, which he does a few lines later: “For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish”

But assuming we talking about it being a sin according to the bible it seems pretty clear that gay sex is a sin as it is written down in black and white and there hasn’t been any scripture since to remove it’s sin status :

As is touching pig skin and all manner of other things.

Like describing a Whale as a Fish

From the Greek k?tos meaning large sea creature. Take your pick. Probably the more troubling concept is how a bloke could be in the belly of a whale or fish for three days and come out alive at the other side, but I suppose that depends on how literally your particular sect takes its Bible interpretation.

I suppose there may be a special place in Hell for pisspoor Greek/Latin translation, though.

As is touching pig skin and all manner of other things.

…and eating shellfish.

Shall we suffer a witch to live???

I’m not sure what I would gain from claiming to be a Christian and then ignoring/overlooking the bits I don’t agree with.
I’m aware this could come across as being an antagonistic series of posts, it’s not intended to be.

I don’t see you as being antagonistic.

That said, the idea of ‘ignoring the bits I don’t agree with’ will depend entirely on what you understand faith to be drawn on.

In Catholic tradition (broadly speaking – so, including Orthodox, RCs, Anglicans), the faith has been explicitly predicated on what is sometimes called the three-legged stool: Scripture, Tradition, and Reason.

So, for example, if someone who claimed to speak for God declared that 2+2=5, and they could find some obscure ‘proof-text’ in the Bible to support them, both tradition and reason would trump such nonsense.

Then, as has been the case with certain views of women, or slavery, or whatever, where ‘proof-texts’ or even tradition have been found wanting in light of reason, then positions have changed. This, for example, is what the feminist theologians of the second half of the 20th century brought to the table: they said that the Church’s view of the body was insufficient, based as it was on faulty Aristotelian categories, and the Church needed to re-evaluate its understanding. Which in some parts it did, and in other parts is still wrestling with it.

Which is all to say that there is no single list of ‘bits’ that a person must either agree or disagree with.

And how can a gay person be a christian unless they are renouncing the validity of the scriptures ? It seems to me that is just as, or actually probably a lot more, hypocritical.

Don’t follow your thinking. Don’t Christians preach that none of us are without ‘sin’ (their words not mine), none are righteous, none are good etc?

So it follows that whatever amd no matter what a Christian does or is, they are still ‘proving’ the validity of the scriptures? (As with other religions, everything ‘proves’ scripture 😉 )

I get that they cherry pick which ‘sins’ are ‘worse’ than others. Even totally ignoring some. The results of the cherry-picking often weirdly coincide with the individuals personal prejudices. Miraculous!

Ok.

He’s a liar.
And he’s a hypocrite.

And to the Christians;

You have life experience that has shown you that gay people are just people.

Against all logic, against your own common sense and the evidence gained throughout your life YOU have chosen to believe that homosexuality is a sin.

I find it hard to trust people like that.
People who ignore their own knowledge and experience yet choose to believe some flawed ideology, be it political or religious.
Such people are easily led.

Love to all,
Pete.

Don’t Christians preach that none of us are without ‘sin’ (their words not mine), none are righteous, none are good etc?

so therefore a gay christian would have to accept that gay sex is a sin, but the ones I hear on the media don’t accept that, which I think is a bit messed up. Invent a different religion that doesn’t accept the scriptures then.

Remember, it was only 4 years ago that Alan Turing got his (heart-breakingly post-humous) ‘ pardon ‘ from the Queen.

‘Pardon’ for what? For him being driven to suicide after his genius/decisive help in saving the World from the Nazis and closing down WW2? It’s not Turing’s ghost who requires ‘pardoning’. Messed up bullshit country we are.

George Montague says it best:

George Montague was convicted in 1974 of gross indecency with a man. He says he wants an apology – not a pardon.
“To accept a pardon means you accept that you were guilty. I was not guilty of anything. I was only guilty of being in the wrong place at the wrong time,” he told BBC Newsnight.
“I think it was wrong to give Alan Turing – one of the heroes of my life – a pardon.
“What was he guilty of? He was guilty of the same as what they called me guilty of – being born only able to fall in love with another man.”
He added: “If I get an apology, I will not need a pardon.”
He added that there “never should have been an offence of gross indecency”.
“It didn’t apply to heterosexuals. Heterosexuals could do what they liked, in the doorways, in passageways, the back of their car.

Abrahamic religions (and descendant cultures) have long fueled negative prejudice towards homosexuals. It needs to stop now. Progress has been made. But things can go backwards very quickly. I would argue that the pendulum is swinging ‘that way’. Horrible. Shameful.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/gay-lgbt-hate-crimes-stats-rise-four-year-physical-verbal-homophobic-abuse-community-a7933126.html

Anecdote – leaving the M5 and heading home last week I saw a huge ‘anti-gay’ graffiti sprayed on the back of a large road sign. Visible to all motorists passing. This is the first time since 1970s/early 80s that I remember seeing such a disgusting display.

My Brexit-loving buddy (driving at the time) was as delighted as I was saddened. Make of that what you will. No I’m not saying all Brexiteers are hateful bigots. But there is a trend.

For him being driven to suicide

Not really relevant to the point but FWIW, I saw a documentary that included interviews with some of his friends and they said his suicide was triggered by his loss of mathmatical ability with age, nothing to do with being chased by the police. Maybe the editor cherry picked evidence to support that case, but it sounded plausible to me.

I thought he lost his mathematical ability due to the chemical castration drugs that he was forced to take.

EDIT – His conviction, for being gay, also removed his security clearance, so affected which job and where he could work.

Acording to Wiki they’re not even sure it was suicide: “On 8 June 1954, Turing’s housekeeper found him dead. He had died the previous day. A post-mortem examination established that the cause of death was cyanide poisoning.[131] When his body was discovered, an apple lay half-eaten beside his bed, and although the apple was not tested for cyanide,[132] it was speculated that this was the means by which a fatal dose was consumed. An inquest determined that he had committed suicide, and he was cremated at Woking Crematorium on 12 June 1954.[133] Turing’s ashes were scattered there, just as his father’s had been. Andrew Hodges and another biographer, David Leavitt, have both suggested that Turing was re-enacting a scene from the Walt Disney film Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs (1937), his favourite fairy tale, both noting that (in Leavitt’s words) he took “an especially keen pleasure in the scene where the Wicked Queen immerses her apple in the poisonous brew.”[134]

Philosophy professor Jack Copeland has questioned various aspects of the coroner’s historical verdict. He suggests an alternative explanation for the cause of Turing’s death, this being the accidental inhalation of cyanide fumes from an apparatus for electroplating gold onto spoons, which uses potassium cyanide to dissolve the gold. Turing had such an apparatus set up in his tiny spare room. Copeland notes that the autopsy findings were more consistent with inhalation than with ingestion of the poison. Turing also habitually ate an apple before bed, and it was not unusual for it to be discarded half-eaten.[135] In addition, Turing had reportedly borne his legal setbacks and hormone treatment (which had been discontinued a year previously) “with good humour” and had shown no sign of despondency prior to his death, even setting down a list of tasks he intended to complete upon return to his office after the holiday weekend.[135] Turing’s mother believed that the ingestion was accidental, resulting from her son’s careless storage of laboratory chemicals.[136] Biographer Andrew Hodges suggests Turing arranged the delivery of the equipment to deliberately allow his mother plausible deniability regarding any suicide claims.[137]”

My Brexit-loving buddy (driving at the time) was as delighted as I was saddened. Make of that what you will. No I’m not saying all Brexiteers are hateful bigots. But there is a trend.

Pot, kettle…

If you say you’re a certain religion but you’ll turn a blind-eye to the bits you don’t fancy, then what’s the point?

If it stops (or at least offers a disincentive for) you thieving, murdering folk or cheating on your spouse etc – then surely the other bits are conveniently covered by asking ‘forgiveness’? Don’t you still get a ride to paradise with Dad? I’m not a believer but I can atleast see the attraction of truly believing in eternal life with endless pie and gold. Plus a handy ‘guide-book’ whilst alive. Not forgetting the community benefits and social influence. Martyrdom opportunities for those inclined. The list is surely endless. It’s complicated and simple. It’s good and sinful. It’s empowering, powerful, influential, it’s also persecuted and weak. It’s simultaneously eternal and under threat. Covers all bases as far as I can see?

My Brexit-loving buddy (driving at the time) was as delighted as I was saddened. Make of that what you will. No I’m not saying all Brexiteers are hateful bigots. But there is a trend.
Pot, kettle…

‘Saddened’ and ‘hateful bigotry’ are not the same thing. Noting a trend neither. Happy to discuss.

Ordinarily, I don’t believe that anyone has the right to criticise the nature of a relationship between two consenting adults. So long as the relationship isn’t abusive or exploitative then everything is all good so far as I’m concerned.

But Tim Farron as an MP is a lawmaker and politician in a representative democracy. His job is to sift through the various arguments and adopt a compromise which satisfies legislation, party policy and constituents. There will be times when a politician has to back a policy that is at odds with their own belief (witness the large number of Conservative remainers backing Brexit, for example).

I get that it’s difficult to separate one’s own beliefs with a political standpoint, especially as we demand (but rarely ever get) politicians with personal integrity. I don’t have much time for Farron’s personal views on gay marriage, but at least he’s able to recognise that his views aren’t necessarily in step with the modern world.

As for the homophobic graffiti, I’m shocked and horrified that it’s a thing in 2017. I honestly thought that we’d gotten over this.

However, his defence that the media would be uninterested in his nuanced viewpoint about homosexuality is feeble.

Perhaps, but absolutely correct, it was a grubby line of questioning.

Tim’s issue is that Evangelical Christianity is incompatible with many issues on the Liberal Left hence his stumbling nonsense over this

But not the Liberal tradition in this country, the non conformist church was one of the main breeding grounds for modern liberal thought.

He made an very good speech at the end of last year, which you can read here. He comes across as a very thoughful, brave and decent man. Yet people on here use perjorative terms about him, which says a lot more about them than him.

Mefty – anyone who thinks it is right that public servants can discriminate against gay people is an illiberal bigot. And Farron voted for exactly that. He is in favour of the state discriminating against gay folk.

I am not really interested in your views, it has been quite self evident what you are for some considerable time.

mefty – Member

…. it was a grubby line of questioning.

I agree.

But I feel it was valid, as it highlighted his willingness to lie about his personal convictions.

He made an very good speech at the end of last year, which you can read here. He comes across as a very thoughful, brave and decent man. Yet people on here use perjorative terms about him, which says a lot more about them than him.

He’s a self confessed liar and hypocrite.
People don’t like that and voice their opinions in a robust and sometimes unpleasant manner.
It’s human nature, what people do, especially on the internet.

Crucially, are people reacting any differently to him BECAUSE the subject of his lie involves his religious belief?
If so, why?

I’m sorry if any of my comments have caused offence, I genuinely liked the bloke for a while.

it was a grubby line of questioning.

A fair question would be: “Do you beleive that gay people should be discriminated against in any way whatsoever.”

But I feel it was valid, as it highlighted his willingness to lie about his personal convictions.

It’s a question designed to force a lie because effectively ‘sin’ has two meanings. None of us could answer it truthfully. If I ask you: “Is gluttony a sin” you have to say yes, it’s one of the deadly ones, but then your opponents can represent that as you making a value judgment about over-eaters.

I suppose if you’re an atheist you can get out of it by saying ‘It’s a sin, but I don’t beleive in the concept of sins.’ but even that could be reported on front pages as “Ruusty Spanner claims ‘it’s a sin'”.

But I feel it was valid, as it highlighted his willingness to lie about his personal convictions.

He ended up lying because it was all the media were interested in talking about and his party was struggling to get coverage on the issues that they believed were important, which this certainly wasn’t. I think that is pretty understandable and you have to recognise the reality of modern politics and the importance of media coverage.

People don’t like that and voice their opinions in a robust and sometimes unpleasant manner.
It’s human nature, what people do, especially on the internet.

Just because people do it doesn’t make it right, but frankly it doesn’t bother me, just speeds up reading a thread as they telegraph the fact that there is no need to bother reading their posts.

@ turnerguy

Among Brexit voters, 59 per cent said cycling was unnatural, compared to a quarter of Remain voters.

Sixty-eight per cent of Brexit supporters said children should not be taught about cyclist’s relationships in primary school, compared to 29 per cent of Remain voters.

Half of Leave voters did not approve of male cyclists becoming parents, compared to 78 per cent of Remain voters who generally approved.

FTFY

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/homosexuality-decriminalisation-50-gay-sex-unnatural-rights-british-people-believe-same-sex-a7862191.html

Whichever way you slice it, I’m saddened by the overall figures. Saddened also that you feel somehow qualified to call me a ‘hateful bigot’ for noting a trend towards bigotry. What’s that all about? Reading comprehension?

As an atheist, no, I don’t believe in the truth of the concept of sin.
It’s a man-made construct that some people choose to impose on themselves.

Tim Farron made the conscious choice to believe that homosexuality is a sin.

He then chose to lie.
That’s the important bit.

My view, that sin does not exist, is irrelevant.

Sounds like Tim Farron should join the Tory party.

mefty – Member

I am not really interested in your views, it has been quite self evident what you are for some considerable time.

Yes I am a person who believes in equal opportunities and freedom from bigotry for all.

Remember he voted to allow state employees to discriminate against homosexuals . that is bigotry. Believing homosexuals are less valuable and should be discriminated against. The man is outed as a bigot by his own words

Saddened also that you feel somehow qualified to call me a ‘hateful bigot’ for noting a trend towards bigotry. What’s that all about? Reading comprehension?

I only meant bigot, not hateful bigot 🙂

But remainers seem to constantly lump all brexit voters in the same bucket and cast them all as ignorant and racist, and possible scum…

Sounds like Tim Farron should join the Tory party.

The party that championed gay marriage? DUP though…

He ended up lying because it was all the media were interested in talking about

He didn’t need to lie though. He assumed the media wouldn’t understand his position, but he didn’t actually try.

Rusty – he voted for allowing state employees to discriminate against homosexuals. that makes him a bigot. NO ifs or buts. He believes on the basis of his religious convictions that discrimination against homosexuals by the state is acceptable.

I got and am still getting a hard time on here for outing him at the time for this act but now he is condemned by his own words

He didn’t need to lie though. He assumed the media wouldn’t understand his position, but he didn’t actually try.

I can assure you that it is not easy to communicate any sort of nuanced ideas through the media. Think Rowan Williams.

Remember he voted to allow state employees to discriminate against homosexuals

In 2011 two judges of the Court of Appeal of England and Wales upheld previous statements in the country’s jurisprudence that the (non-canon) laws of the United Kingdom ‘do not include Christianity’.

from

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_the_United_Kingdom

As an atheist, no, I don’t believe in the truth of the concept of sin.
It’s a man-made construct that some people choose to impose on themselves.
Tim Farron made the conscious choice to believe that homosexuality is a sin.
He then chose to lie.
That’s the important bit.
My view, that sin does not exist, is irrelevant.

So if you were in a pub quiz with Tim Farron, if you were asked is gluttony a sin and he said yes, and you said no, you would expect Tim to be marked wrong, and you to be marked right? Which is the point. You’re an atheist and even you would have to lie to this question. You’d say gluttony was not a sin, when you know it’s famously on the big list of sins.

He didn’t need to lie though. He assumed the media wouldn’t understand his position, but he didn’t actually try.

I think he did, and if you think he didn’t then how do you explain the form the question took? It was obviously constructed to be impossible. The questioner could have asked “Should gay people be discriminated against in any form” which would have been easy to answer and deal with exactly the same issue.

I can assure you that it is not easy to communicate any sort of nuanced ideas through the media.

This.

The questioner could have asked “Should gay people be discriminated against in any form”

Farron voted to allow discrimination in state services against homosexuals

tjagain – Member
Rusty – he voted for allowing state employees to discriminate against homosexuals. that makes him a bigot. NO ifs or buts. He believes on the basis of his religious convictions that discrimination against homosexuals by the state is acceptable.

Well, he’s either a bigot, or someone willing to vote in a discriminatory manner because of his self imposed beliefs, despite the evidence of his eyes and a lifetime of experience telling him otherwise.

The latter worries me more, because he was prepared to lie about it.

Sounds like Tim Farron should join the Tory party.

No there are still a few in the other two parties who understand what liberalism entails.

Yes I am a person who believes in equal opportunities and freedom from bigotry for all.

You obviously don’t read your posts. Oh look, Peppa Pig is coming into land.

No there are still a few in the other two parties who understand what liberalism entails.

Whoosh.

Tim Farron should join the Tory party.

He did in 2010, didn’t have any problem voting for a budget that was completely at odds with his party’s stated aims….

Whoosh.

Back at you laddie.