Tim Farron

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  • Tim Farron
  • tjagain
    Member

    ninfan – Member

    I tend to live in a black and white world. I am an imperfect being.

    Thats a terrible shame TJ, we’ll pray for you[/quote]

    Lols – I am glad someone caught the reference

    thegreatape – Member

    I tend to live in a black and white world

    I knew you were old, but not that old! [/quote]

    Even more Lols – that one was unintentional 🙂

    mefty
    Member

    I did draft a reply to a few points but I lost it. So here is a quick precis.

    Use of bigot – it has to be correctly used in the first place – just because you believe something is sinful doesn’t mean you show prejudice against someone and I don’t think Farron does. But generally, perjorative terms of any kinds are thrown around too often, we are fortunate to have a language with many words, it is good to show ambition.

    The quote etc – four times at most and I will continue to use it as it illustrates his extreme views which based on more recent postings he still seems to hold, so even if he apologized which he didn’t on the forum, I think it would be an apology for being caught out. My underwear has never been soiled reading this site. On Sadiq Khan, I don’t recall any threads but I certainly wouldn’t have sufficient knowledge of the muslim faith to know how widely held certain beliefs are etc. Tim Farron is hardly a political bedfellow – obviously a metaphor.

    Premier Icon Northwind
    Subscriber

    “A person who is intolerant towards those holding different opinions”

    If you say something is a sin, it’s hard to argue you’re not being intolerant

    “An immoral act considered to be a transgression against divine law.
    ‘a sin in the eyes of God’
    1.1 An act regarded as a serious or regrettable fault, offence, or omission.

    I wouldn’t say bigot personally just because it’s such a charged word, but I don’t think it’s an unfair comment.

    mefty
    Member

    If you say something is a sin, it’s hard to argue you’re not being intolerant

    Not really, you are only intolerant or prejudicial, if you do something – just thinking something doesn’t mean you are intolerant or prejudicial, doing something to stop them doing it would be.

    Premier Icon Northwind
    Subscriber

    mefty – Member

    Not really, you are only intolerant or prejudicial, if you do something

    Colour me unconvinced. It’s certainly a step better than acting on it but it doesn’t mean it’s not there.

    mefty
    Member

    Do you not have conflicting beliefs? I certainly do and I think most people, who give it some thought, do too.

    I would have thought that tolerance relies on having a different opinion to even exist. If everyone thought the same then there’s no scope for showing tolerance. If two people hold different views, can take a stance where they accept the others right to hold a different view, can put that difference of opinion aside and while acknowledging it still get along as well as they would if it wasn’t there, then tolerance is shown, perhaps even acceptance, of the person and their opinion. That’s what it means to me anyway, and I don’t think disagreement is the same is intolerance. Disagreement or difference of opinion is just a thing, intolerance is a negative but optional response to it.

    geetee1972
    Member

    I’m an aetheist but even I know that Christianity teaches you to love the person but not the sin. Being a Christian doesn’t automatically make you a bigot but it might. Until you’ve spent time listening and understanding the person best not judge (or else you will be the bigot and a hypocrite).

    Premier Icon kelvin
    Subscriber

    I don’t think disagreement is the same is intolerance.

    Very true. However, calling for public servants to be allowed to withdraw their services from homosexuals is not just “disagreement”. It is discrimination.

    love the person but not the sin

    You can acknowledge that what a muderer has done is wrong, and still show love for them. If you “love” someone who is gay, but still think that being gay is wrong, that will be viewed quite differently by many. It may be a logical position, but that doesn’t mean that a politician who thinks that way can expect to win the votes of people who consider themselves socially liberal.

    kerley
    Member

    He just needs to switch to tory party, he would be seen as liberal in there.

    If you “love” someone who is gay, but still think that being gay is wrong, that will be viewed quite differently by many. It may be a logical position, but that doesn’t mean that a politician who thinks that way can expect to win the votes of people who consider themselves socially liberal.

    Indeed, politics is a different ballgame altogether.

    If Farron did vote in favour if same sex marriage, which I think someone said earlier in the thread, then surely that demonstrates tolerance of others views or opinions despite him not sharing them?

    I assume that his stance on the registrar thing is based on the principle that someone should not be forced to participate in something that goes against their conscience, rather than a desire to prevent gay people getting married altogether.

    Premier Icon jambalaya
    Subscriber

    If you say something is a sin, it’s hard to argue you’re not being intolerant

    No it isn’t. Observant Muslims (and other reigions) don’t drink alcohol but they accept others chose to.

    If you are a “strictly” religious Christian, Jew or Muslim homosexuality is a sin / forbidden

    I am Christian and I can inderstand those people Farron included who believe it’s a sin but it’s not my view.

    As I posted earlier the interview with Farron on Soundcloud is spot on, Atheism isn’t a neutral position it’s wedded to anti-religious prejudice in many cases

    Junkyard
    Member

    you are only intolerant or prejudicial, if you do something – just thinking something doesn’t mean you are intolerant or prejudicial, doing something to stop them doing it would be.

    Jesus said you committed the sin by thinking about it and its hard to argue if i said something stupid /racist like all black people should be kicked out of the country and be deported then i am only a bigot or intolerant if i act on this ;saying it is perfectly fine and not bigoted.
    Its a ludicrously weak argument you are making here to defend someone who shares your faith.

    Christianity teaches you to love the person but not the sin.

    Why does god say you stone them to death for it being an abomination then ?

    mefty
    Member

    It is discrimination.

    Positive discrimination.

    Junkyard
    Member

    Observant Muslims (and other reigions) don’t drink alcohol but they accept others chose to.

    allah cursed the drinker and all who were invoved in its production. I am not sure this is accepting. Apparently cursing folk is now tolerant 🙄 The religious really do clutch at straws to defend the inconsistencies within their faith and their bigotry- IMHO it goes with being of faith as inevitable as you have a moral code [ all be it a poor one based on the morality of 3-4 millennia ago hence so many of you ignore the bits on gays and all the the stupid stuff in there – tbh its so bad even those of faith cannot abide by it never mind me ] to live by and those who dont are sinners who are not going to heaven. To try and argue you or god are not judging them is as amusing as it is ludicrous

    Are you genuinely interested in why Christians don’t believe they are required to put homosexuals to death, and all those other OT things they don’t do? Or is it just convenient to claim that it’s an inconsistency and do rolly eyes? If it’s the former, a few moments of googling will reveal plenty of articulate explanations from people who know what they’re talking about.

    Junkyard
    Member

    I studied theology[ not my main subject to be clear] at Uni but thanks for your input and the advice to google
    There is no wriggle room in believing it , its very clear it is abomination and stone them to death though it is amusing how many christians ignore the teachings and then want to lecture me on why not following the teachings is christians
    The christians who do that really ought to read revelation some fairly forthright views on what happens to the churches who ignore the teachings- assuming that is a bit they believe

    My view The idea is nonesense
    the practice is irrational to the point even christians ignore the bible as so much of it is “inconvenient”

    Seems to me many christians have not actually read much of the Bible or if they have they have massively cherry picked- granted I can be accused of the same . However god really does not tolerate homosexuals and if the biblical attitude was expressed by you or I in our jobs we would be in a disciplinary

    Atheism isn’t a neutral position it’s wedded to anti-religious prejudice in many cases

    This is a confusing statement. Are you arguing ‘many’ or ‘all’? Because if it is not all (cases) then you don’t get to simultaneously define atheism’s ‘position’ predicated on an observance of ‘many’. I would argue (as an atheist) that my ‘position’ is entirely my own, regardless of your or anyone’s declaration otherwise. Some religions (or more correctly some forms of some religions) I am vehemently against, others not so much. Others not at all. I do not/did not have a ‘guide book’ or childhood induction (was raised agnostically) to tell me ‘what to believe’. So my starting position (lack of belief) was indeed ‘neutral’.

    Presumably many theists don’t automatically subscribe to all other religions, or are even opposed to (some of) them?

    Interesting thread, and one through which runs the ‘paradox of tolerance’, as yet not addressed?

    Am going to invoke Karl Popper:

    I do not imply, for instance, that we should always suppress the utterance of intolerant philosophies; as long as we can counter them by rational argument and keep them in check by public opinion, suppression would certainly be unwise.

    (my bold)

    The problem/paradox I see that is not covered by Popper’s quote is this:

    The ‘intolerant philosopher’ will more often naturally believe (and label) any opposition to his/her intolerance to be ‘intolerance’. ‘I’m not the bigot, you’re the bigot, for calling my beliefs bigoted’

    This leads to a feedback loop where the calling out of bigotry will get you labeled a ‘bigot’ by the bigots (or the defenders of ‘intolerant philosophy’)

    ‘Tolerance’ itself is (IMO) more of a slow-burning battle-ground between authoritarianism/fascism and liberalism/egalitarianism.

    When those two idealogical opposites start to close in (and even begin resembling each other) – you know that something better has to evolve. From the ashes of civility? (ie – the universal level of debate is more Twitterish of late)

    Thanks JY. It was a genuine question BTW, although I appreciate that may not have come across, such are the limitations of typing on a forum.

    I was prompted to read a bit more about it simply because it’s a very good question. And when I did so, the explanations that I read for why the OT laws the Israelites followed do not all apply to Christians did seem to me to be logical in light of the supporting sources from the NT that were cited and drawn on to reach those conclusions.

    I have to concede though that I have not studied theology, so I am not qualified to critique the reasoning of those that have, either you or the many other theologians that have reached different conclusions.

    Presumably many theists don’t automatically subscribe to all other religions, or are even opposed to (some of) them?

    Many? A few? Some? Most ?

    Personally can’t understand a narrow focus on one religion (outside convenience and context). Much more interesting IME to see what insights/guidance/knowledge can be derived from all of them including the similarities between theist and non-theist religions (eg Living Buddha, Living Christ).

    Many? A few? Some? Most ?

    It was slight sarcasm in response to #jambafact – ‘atheism is not a neutral position’

    I know. I was teasing 😉

    Junkyard
    Member

    I have to concede though that I have not studied theology

    Hardly an expert either

    I just find it interesting how many christians ignore the Bible be it on homosexuality , creationism, contraception or any other number of facts.

    FWIW the NT Is a cracking read and there is very little if anything to disagree with about the account of Jesus- some great parables as well

    Despite what he said about the rich the rich christians dont seem intent n giving their , or their churches, wealth away
    Revelation shows a vengeful hate filled god but it is relevant to th e”modernising” debate

    Personally can’t understand a narrow focus on one religion (outside convenience and context). Much more interesting IME to see what insights/guidance/knowledge can be derived from all of them including the similarities between theist and non-theist religions (eg Living Buddha, Living Christ).

    +1

    Which reminds me, ‘The Golden Bough’ (vols 1-12) by Sir James Frazer (sp?) is a must-read for anyone interested in comparative religion, philosophy, anthropology…

    Will look it up. Looks like free downloads.

    Reminds me of a work trip to India in late 90s when I was reading LBLC, the Gita and M Gilbey’s “We believe” at the same time.

    kerley
    Member

    Despite what he said about the rich the rich christians dont seem intent n giving their , or their churches, wealth away

    Exactly, people say they are Christian but certainly don’t show it in their actions towards less privileged. I am more christian than a lot of Christians I have come across.

    Premier Icon Northwind
    Subscriber

    mefty – Member

    Do you not have conflicting beliefs? I certainly do and I think most people, who give it some thought, do too.

    Yup, loads. Sometimes I have to work very hard to overcome my own intolerances and biases- I don’t pretend they don’t exist just because I didn’t act on them though.

    I am more christian than a lot of Christians I have come across.

    God bless you

    TurnerGuy
    Member

    “A person who is intolerant towards those holding different opinions”

    If you say something is a sin, it’s hard to argue you’re not being intolerant

    “An immoral act considered to be a transgression against divine law.
    ‘a sin in the eyes of God’
    1.1 An act regarded as a serious or regrettable fault, offence, or omission.

    I would have thought that whether it is a sin or not is clearly defined by the definition you provided, so saying it is a sin is a matter of fact and cannot be argued, and intolerance has nothing to do with it.

    I would have thought that whether it is a sin or not is clearly defined by the definition you provided, so saying it is a sin is a matter of fact and cannot be argued, and intolerance has nothing to do with it.

    Junkyard
    Member

    so saying it is a sin is a matter of fact and cannot be argued, and intolerance has nothing to do with it.

    Its a fact as to whether someone is a poofta or a paki or the N word so these are not the terms of a bigot as they are just matters of facts

    Its not a great argument you just made is it ?

    TurnerGuy
    Member

    Its a fact as to whether someone is a poofta or a paki or the N word so these are not the terms of a bigot as they are just matters of facts

    b ut you are using offensive slang terms there, are you not? Sin is the original word that was used.

    If someone is Gay, or Pakastani, or Black, then that is what they are and I have not made a bigoted statement. Your phrase uses bigoted language.

    I don’t see the point in the argument, it’s a sin by definition, but who cares – only religious people who think it matters, and therefore are themselves bigoted.

    A previous boss confessed that back-door sex was the only thing his wife allowed as they had too many kids, but I wasn’t aware anyone was bigoted against him because it was a sin.

    And you can extend bigoted to all sorts of things. Can I not be bigoted against people from religions with misogynistic or homophobic views (therefore most of them :-)) ?

    Why should I be tolerant toward people with those views?

    Junkyard
    Member

    offensive slang terms there, are you not? Sin is the original word that was used.

    Its not as pejorative as the words I gave as examples but there is no way its a compliment and how accurate it is is not the real issue [ which is what my point was]
    To be fair christains think everyone is a sinner but they dont think all acts are sinful IMHO calling homosexual love sinful is offensive

    TurnerGuy
    Member

    IMHO calling homosexual love sinful is offensive

    but that is what the bible says so you have no reason to think it is offensive. It’s sinful, end of.

    You could, however, be justified in being offended if someone said homosexual love was wrong.

    Whether that is of matter to someone depends on whether they are religious.

    You can’t believe in Jesus and the bible and the phophets and then say that homosexual love is not sinful.

    It’s a pointless argument as it is there in black and white.

    tjagain
    Member

    mefty

    Not really, you are only intolerant or prejudicial, if you do something – just thinking something doesn’t mean you are intolerant or prejudicial, doing something to stop them doing it would be.

    Well well well.

    Farron did something – something pretty abhorrent in my eyes in that he voted to allow public servants to discriminate against homosexuals. so Farron did more than think – he allowed his thoughts too influence his actions thus by your own words he is proven to be intolerant and prejudicial

    Whereas I have never allowed my thoughts on the matter to affect one iota how I acted. Why? Because to act in a prejudicial manner is very much against my moral code and is abhorrent to me. Indeed I make sure I act more than fairly including taking people to their place of worship many times when it is not a part of my duty to do so.

    So by your own words and definitions mefty I am not not intolerant and prejudicial but Farron is

    Hoist by your own petard.

    Farron did something – something pretty abhorrent in my eyes in that he voted to allow public servants to discriminate against homosexuals

    You could open them and realise why others reach a different conclusion. He didn’t as is clear

    Junkyard
    Member

    As could you – I love the way you give advice you yourself could actually do with implementing.
    Its enjoyable watching him get to you without even trying and by simply ignoring you where as I personally love being ignored by you. the only person to get a free pass from your trolling gentle abuse – Bless you and praise the lord 😉

    but that is what the bible says so you have no reason to think it is offensive. It’s sinful, end of

    So if the bible said being asian or black was a sin then it would not be offensive to say this to them?

    You can’t believe in Jesus and the bible and the phophets and then say that homosexual love is not sinful.

    agreed but that is still offensive

    mefty
    Member

    something pretty abhorrent in my eyes in that he voted to allow public servants to discriminate against homosexuals.

    Of course he did in your eyes, because you as a morally superior being, you know that that public official would have to be feeble minded to believe such things and therefore forced to do the “right” thing. On the other hand, Farron voted to allow him or her their conscience whilst preserving the obligation of the state to provide the ceremony, thus not prejudicing the couple’s position. A compromise that recognizes everyone’s views and keeps them all happy.

    Whereas I have never allowed my thoughts on the matter to affect one iota how I acted.

    Well that’s what you say, but based on what you say on here I don’t give it any credence.

    mefty
    Member

    Yup, loads. Sometimes I have to work very hard to overcome my own intolerances and biases- I don’t pretend they don’t exist just because I didn’t act on them though.

    Do you self identify as a bigot then?

    The point I am making is that politicians are as human as us, but with the additional scrutiny they face, the contractions that we all suffer from can become exposed and I don’t think it is right to write someone off on that basis alone. Calling them bigot, which I appreciate you probably wouldn’t, does that.

    Junkyard
    Member

    Amazing how forgiving the christian is of Farron* and how scornful of TJ

    Thankfully some bias, and poor arguments, are very easy to see

    slowster
    Member

    The point I am making is that politicians are as human as us, but with the additional scrutiny they face, the contractions that we all suffer from can become exposed and I don’t think it is right to write someone off on that basis alone. Calling them bigot, which I appreciate you probably wouldn’t, does that.

    I agree with you, but I just couldn’t resist (sorry)…

    [video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TbhPWAMx2y0[/video]

    Premier Icon kelvin
    Subscriber

    You can’t believe in Jesus and the bible and the phophets and then say that homosexual love is not sinful.

    Utter bullocks.

    Arguably true but more importantly, what a wonderful choice of phrase 😉

    Mr Woppit
    Member

    You can’t believe in Jesus and the bible

    Quite so. 🙂

    TurnerGuy
    Member

    Utter bullocks.

    afraid not.

    the definition of what a sin is is in the bible – so whatever acts it says are a sin, are a sin. That must be pretty simple to understand, right ?

    Whether you find the concepts of sin and things being labelled a sin, and religions having the gall to catagories actions as evil/a sin, as offensive is something different and fair enough.

    But you still can’t get past the fact that it is a sin, as it meets the definition.

    If you believe in the bible you have to accept that those things are sins, you can’t get round it. If you don’t like it then you have to follow some invented ‘middle-ground’ – I suppose like liberal muslims do – and pretend that there is some justification for your views.

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