The Electric Car Thread

I’m emailing out for quotes for a charger installation, any recommendations in Surrey / Surrey Hants borders?

Also thinking where to put it – does it need to be a certain height from floor, for example?

any recommendations in Surrey / Surrey Hants borders?

https://www.earthelectrical.tech/

Andy did our solar & battery install and I’d have no hesitation in recommending him (and Harry)

250kW DC now were talkin ! and I think they’re the future rather than 3.5-7kW from a lampost

Two different customers surely.  The lampposts are for local residents who park on the street overnight, the fast chargers are for folk on long journeys who are don’t have enough juice to make it back to their home charger/lamppost.

That’s not what I meant and you know it.

Not really – what do you mean by ‘trouser’ the money? Share dividends? Perhaps, but most of these companies are fighting tooth and nail over market share so I doubt it.

If prices are already hiked why are you suggesting we give them even more money in the hope that they will give us cheaper EVs in the future

Well, they are already piling money into R&D – we know this. There are many startups working on battery tech and most of them are being funded by the manufacturers who are their future customers – makes sense. There is still a massive amount of investment needed – we need cheap decent EVs, and we need charging (manufacturers are also investing in charging certainly in the USA, not sure about here). But we need production facilities too. From memory, 1 in 5 new cars registered in the EU are now electric but that still means 4 in 5 are ICE. If they want 5 in 5 to be electric they need a huge ramp-up in production and battery manufacturing even with today’s tech, never mind having to get an advantage over the opposition with technological innovations. Hyundai just opened a new factory in the US for example – that’s where part of the UK government tax-break on new EVs went.

Two different customers surely.  The lampposts are for local residents who park on the street overnight, the fast chargers are for folk on long journeys who are don’t have enough juice to make it back to their home charger/lamppost.

Indeed. At the moment, the lack of lampost chargers (or equivalent) mean it is not viable for me to get a BEV at all.

If i did have one, a superfast charger would be a nice-to-have. But not a gamechanger in the same way that lampost chargers would be.

How would those in favour of lampost chargers feel if there were rows of 250kW chargers on the exits of large supermarkets, DIY store and places they regularly go? Every one I knew in Brum used to fill up with petrol at Tescos, filling up with leccy for a couple of weeks would take 10-20 minutes under a dry canopy?

I agree with Molgrip’s point about favouring night time charging but the population with drive ways will already be doing that. From an infrastruture point of view it strikes me as easier, cheaper and less digging to put in a few thick cables than a lot of thin ones. From a maintainance point of view too. I wonder if there are any stats on the proportion of UK households that have a driveway or private off-road car parking that could be equipped with a private socket. Every lampost won’t be enough anyhow and create parking rage worse than we have already as people squable over the (looks out of the window) 7 cars per lampost.

That is fine in principle, but atm rapid charging is more expensive than normal charging.  Do lamppost chargers require much new wire to be laid?  Also, we are currently (sic) advised that slow charge rates are better for our batteries, so using high currents for each charge should be avoided.

Eta also more no lamp lampposts aka slow charging posts could be installed if there was demand.  Of course there may be implications for the capacity of the supply in the road, but similar issues might arise for a battery of rapid chargers.

You’d better have a think about how you define hiked prices.  Yes these things are expensive, so are a lot of other things, plus prices are coming down if you compare range or some other performance metric against time.  An Audi is more expensive than a BYD – is the Audi hiked, or it more expensive to build something in Europe?

I find it annoying that most everything is described as a ripoff these days. How much are you paid by the way, for what you do?  The irony is that this forum is a hotspot for very expensive bicycles , often in steel, and e-bikes, that are very hard to justify on arbitrary  price/value grounds.

Everyone’s working on these, and they all have numbers like that. But it won’t be used for 600 mile range cars (or at least not many). They will make 300 mile range cars that are 2/3 the price they are now and smaller and lighter. The minute they put a 600 mile car on the market and people are faced with the choice of a 30k car or the same car at 50k with more range, they’ll realise that 300 miles is enough.

The head of BYD (and he’ll know) thinks they’ll appear on high end cars first , in that 5 year time frame, then creep down downmarket.  And yes, for most users, 300 miles of driving is a lot, particularly in one go

 There are many startups working on battery tech and most of them are being funded by the manufacturers who are their future customers – makes sense.

Let’s face it new battery tech will most likely come from the likes of CATL, BYD, Samsung and LG not by a startup somewhere funded by a legacy OEM. Witness the debacle that is Northvolt, bankrolled by Volvo and VW where BMW recently pulled out of a 2.2 billion contract becuase Northvolt will fail to deliver.

we need cheap decent EVs

Well they are here already without tax breaks. MG4 £27k, Corsa Electric £27k, BYD Dolfin £26k, Fiat 500e £25k. Might not be your idea of cheap but we live in a world where a new Ford Puma ICE starts at £24k.

Hyundai just opened a new factory in the US for example – that’s where part of the UK government tax-break on new EVs went.

Did you really mean UK government tax breaks? I’m assuming you meant the US EV tax credit. The US have been clever linking the tax credit to the % of the vehicle sourced and assembled in North America, especially the battery. That’s why Hyundai have opened a factory there. I’d be quite happy if we did something similar in the UK but I doubt our market is attractive enough to persuade the likes of Hyundai to build an EV factory in Europe outside of the EU. Tax breaks without conditions like that will just be used to boost profits and shareholder dividends.

@wbo – it is you who have raised the issue of off-ripping and “hiking” in this discussion.  Observing that prices vary does not imply that.  I think that on the electric car charging thread the question of why rapid charging costs more was discussed and I don’t recall cries of “rip-off!”.

But, if long slow charging is convenient and does not cost your time (because you are asleep, working etc.) then why pay more?  Or to put it another way, why waste money on a product that is overkill for your requirements at a particular time?

Also, we are currently (sic) advised that slow charge rates are better for our batteries, so using high currents for each charge should be avoided.

We are speculating about the future possible with solid state batteries that will take very high charge rates without degradation rather than current battery tech.

It was seeing a new Model S Plaid pull into one of the new 250kW Tesla charging bays with the charger in the middle of the bay that provoked my thinking. I didn’t time it but the car was there about 15 mins and had probably put in 60kWh. It’s getting more like filling up with petrol all the time and solid state batteries will take it a step further.

Do lamppost chargers require much new wire to be laid?

Well, I’m not sure the circuit for actual lamp-posts is very high capacity but remember that the cabling for all the houses is also in the street so there probably is capacity. It’s the same wiring that would be carrying the same load if the chargers were in driveways, isn’t it? (I’m assuming)

Did you really mean UK government tax breaks? I’m assuming you meant the US EV tax credit.

Well, I’m guessing that the money they put up came from their corporations around the world which would probably include the UK one. I mean – what would you do if you were the boss of a major car company? If I were still selling all the cars I could currently make, I wouldn’t lower prices – I’d keep them high and re-invest the money into production capacity. Then when that comes online I’d lower the prices to increase demand. We might be at that point now. There’s a lot of R&D going into cheaper EVs like the VW iD2 which is expected to be £22k. Still not cheap enough mind. I think we’ll get shorter range version of that, after people own the longer ones and then realise that a short range car can work as a second car.

Well they are here already without tax breaks. MG4 £27k,

That’s still a lot of actual money though. Not far off twice the price of a Toyota Aygo.

That’s still a lot of actual money though. Not far off twice the price of a Toyota Aygo.

I’d like to present the Dacia Spring. An EV for the same price as a Toyota Aygo.

I’d like to present the Dacia Spring. An EV for the same price as a Toyota Aygo.

Yep. It’s just the one model though so far.

But its still the same price as an Aygo.

BTW the Aygo doesn’t even make it into the top 20 cars to be sold in the UK in 2024 so it appears our fellow citizens aren’t as desperate as you might like to think they are to buy cheap cars.

How would those in favour of lampost chargers feel if there were rows of 250kW chargers on the exits of large supermarkets, DIY store and places they regularly go?

This would be a good improvement! Part of the issue currently is that (as a good citizen) I do my shopping on foot or bike, and it seems silly to increase the miles I drive to facilitate an EV.

However, 250kw charge rates really does bring things into the realms of filling up at petrol stations, and 10 minutes at the start of a long journey could certainly be an option, since thats what we often do at the moment.

it appears our fellow citizens aren’t as desperate as you might like to think they are to buy cheap cars.

Superminis (which includes Fiestas, Corsas etc) are about a third of UK car sales so it’s significant. What’s also significant is that a regular Corsa base model is £18k RRP and an e-Corsa is £26k. That’s a big difference, and that’s what needs addressing IMO.

I think the Spring is a realistic proposition for a runabout. Much better than the MiniE I had as a courtesy car that had 99 miles of range for nearly £40,000.

That sort of thing would work for so many people and what would one cost second hand? £7000 in two years?

Realistic.

The Sainsbury’s near me has a bunch of high speed chargers at 79p/kw, and the Lidl near me has some 7kw chargers for FOURTEEN p per kw… Before I had the home charger, I’d often just pop to Lidl and start charging, and head home.. then before the 3 hour max stay was up, I’d do my shop and then head home.
14p/unit is super cheap for not-at-home charging!

DrP

I do think the Spring is a game-changer, yes, but it will suffer from an image problem. They don’t have the footprint that other manufacturers do in the UK and people still think they are basic and crappy. I reckon a £22k VW will create more buzz and sell more than the Spring – rightly or wrongly.

Deals are out there. This came up on Xitter this morning. Good car for very decent money.

With prices like that brands that manufacture in Europe respecting human rights, environmental norms and employee protection are doomed. Protectionism needed. I wouldn’t buy one if it were 10e but too many will.

Protectionism needed. I wouldn’t buy one if it were 10e but too many will.

That could have unintended consequences of Chinese OEMs setting up production in the EU or Europe. BYD are looking to invest a billion in a new factory in Turkey and both BYD and Nio are showing interest in the Audi EV factory in Belgium that is under closure threat.

So they’ll then be competing on a level playing field, just as Honda, Nissan and Toyota do or did in the UK. It then just needs no-selling-at-a-loss legislation to avoid dumping, France already has that.

Be careful what you wish for.  More than 30% of the value in many EVs is now coming from the battery and many of the European OEMs are having their batteries produced in China.  Those protectionist policies might just hurt you too.  Coupled with the increase in tariffs applied by China to EU goods and that sting might be bigger than you bargained for.  BMW, Mercedes and others argued against the tariffs.

It’s also worth noting that a majority of Europe’s automotive sector (when one considers the who supply chain) is centred in Germany.  German protections are high, as are wages, as are taxes, as are subsidies and RnD incentives (the highest state sponsored RnD incentives anywhere in the world)…the whole of Europe pays for those last two, not just the Germans.  It may not be quite the level playing field you think it is.

I collected my new EQA last week with 20″ wheels included.  They are huge and kinda garish but i dont think the ride is too bad.  TBH i drive any EV in ‘little ol lady mode’ so its not getting thrashed about.  It does everything i ask.  Yes i mean i just ask it and it does it (Other than actual driving).

It went straight into motorway driving with me so its done about 500mls so far of which 350 are on motorway at 70mph.  Current overall average is 3.4m/kw but today on an A road drive its averaged 3.8m/kw at speed limits so it is steadily improving.  Probably go down once the proper cold weather kicks in.

Charging is simple.  36kw goes in in my ‘window’ for cheap leccy at 7.9p (£2.80 for a charge like this) and ive just decided to charge it when it gets down to about 30kw unless i know there is a long journey the next day.  Its on 34% at the moment so about 70% by tomorrow morning is more than enough and i would be able to charge more if a bigger journey crops up.

So far so good.

I think you’ll find that European manufacturers are increasingly making use of the capacity that is coming on line in Europe, Daffy. Renault used to source its batteries in South Korea but now gets them from Poland, Hungary is also a big producer. If you are interested in buying an electric car check where the batteries are sourced before you buy if it’s important to you, it is to me.

Which European brands source their batteries in China? Obviously Dacia does because the car is just a rebadged Chinese thing. Others?

Current overall average is 3.4m/kw but today on an A road drive its averaged 3.8m/kw at speed limits so it is steadily improving.

Why would it improve…. Isn’t the change in figure just because you were on a slower road?

Does an electric motor become more efficient?

Serious Q as I’m currently vaguely considering <em style=”font-size: 0.8rem;”>maybe going for a used ridiculous EV!

I’d heard [Harry’s Garage] that insurance was bonkers but a quick quote has shown I could insure something stupid for about £700 which is only £300 more than I pay now.

I guess it’s cos I’m old!

BMW.  Mercedes.  I think some of the VAG.  Not the pack, but the cells themselves.  The packs are assembled elsewhere.  I don’t know if this is also true for others (pack assembly, but cell manufacture elsewhere, But as much of the value is in the cells, origin rules work against them.

Googling says you’re right about BMW and Mercedes but VW is mainly Korean cells with three suppliers to one Chinese, and Merc is rethinking some of its European cell commitments. Amusingly they’re still planning on buying French cells. Mercs with Renault ICEs and now with French cells. The German government dropping subsidies on EVs looks like screwing some European cell factory building. Short sighted or short sighted.

Why would it improve

Well, I think that the battery capacity improves with the first few cycles. I’m not sure if the car’s efficiency estimates take that into account because they are presumably measuring voltage as a proxy for state of charge. Possible but I don’t know. Otherwise the final drive transmission will ease up slightly but I would not expect that to make a lot of difference. Again I could be wrong.

It’s more likely that the efficiency calculations vary with your driving. My car sometimes promises over 310 miles on a full charge, the manufacturer number is about 280. On slow traffic days we sometimes get well over 5miles/kWh (indicated). I don’t think the onboard calculation is particularly accurate anyway, the current trip estimate sometimes drops when I’m rolling downhill and vice versa.

Sharkbait yes thats kind of what i said.  Its averaging 3.4 with mostly motorway use which i dont think is where it performs best.  Once i got onto a A road journey it went upto 3.8.  My journey to work and back is even higher at about 5.  Basically it needs a bit of time to get a real picture of its average and i expect it to improve the figure.  I wasnt referring to any performance improvement.

I find the predicted range isn’t very useful and rely more on what I’ve learned from experience. I know that locally range isn’t an issue, I just charge when down to about 25% and back up to 90%. On long runs in Summer on main roads I know there’s about 300km between charges and 250km on motorways – less in Winter depending on temperature. What it says on the dash isn’t very useful. Arriving in ski resort it’ll tell me there’s 180km left and 40km later 230 with exactly the same charge in the battery.

 I wasnt referring to any performance improvement.

Gotcha [my bad!]

Arriving in ski resort it’ll tell me there’s 180km left and 40km later 230 with exactly the same charge in the battery.

Maybe it’s similar to my ICE car which can only base the predicted range on the most recent consumption.  If I’ve been doing silly short trips it may say I’ve got 300miles left at the beginning of a long journey – but 30 miles later it might say I’ve got 320 miles left as the consumption has dropped and it’s recalculated.

Well our EV experience has now started in full.  Not only did we finally get our Ohme Home Pro installed, but we also got Renault (not so) Easy Link connected services re-connected.

Our car is an early 2021 Zoe, so its 3 years’ free connected services expired. Not the data connection, that was still there, but the services from Renault.  The My Renault app and web page indicate that these can be renewed, but they can’t.  So I rang up the Renault UK helpline suggested by the app and they took some details and said they would get back to me.  A week later I was surprised to get an emaiil from someone called Paula at the multimedia services team saying that as the online store for services renewals was not up and running yet, they would set us up with 6 months’ free in-car connectivity stuff and 12 months free map updates.  Which have now all come through (though I had to re-install the My Renault app to see that).  As luck would have it, that was just in time to enable our shiny new Ohme to speak to the car. So we can tell the Ohme to “get the car charged to 80% by 9am tomorrow”, also tell the car to get warmed up for us (via the Renault App).  As far as I can see, without the Renault connectivity, we would only have been able to tell the Ohme (or the car) to charge for a certain period overnight.  But maybe we could have asked Ohme to deliver a certain amount of juice, not sure.

Interestingly, this issue with Renault and services renewals has been around for at least a year according to some posts on ev forums, I have no idea whether they actually intend to do anything about it, or what makes it difficult.  Perhpas it is just a demand/pricing issue.  As far as I can see the advantages are:

– monitor charge status from app;

– link car to ohme for more detailed programming of charges (eg by % fullness);

– tell car to warm up via app (I think car may need to be plugged in to do this, or to do it much?);

– update maps automatically (we could have updated them manually via a phone and a usb stick it is claimed).

Since they are free it is nice to have this stuff.  But not a deal-breaker, and as pointed out on the “what SIM for a car” thread, Google Drive and plugging your phone in* will get you up to date mapping, and arguably a better mapping app, though the native mapping on the Zoe appears OK (I think it is Tom Tom).  It also suits Mrs g who likes to leave her phone in her handbag.  How much we would have been willing to pay as a monthly/yearly subscription to it is moot for the time being.

The faff *appears* to be finally over!

*Our car does not support doing all the Google Drive stuff wirelessly, though more modern ones do apparently.

As far as I can see, without the Renault connectivity, we would only have been able to tell the Ohme (or the car) to charge for a certain period overnight. But maybe we could have asked Ohme to deliver a certain amount of juice, not sure.

Yes – if the car doesnt support talking to the charger ( as our car – merc eqc – doesnt support), then you just tell the charger to add x% by y time – as opposed to telling the charger to charge the car to x% by y time,. The charger only knows how many kwh the cars theoretical battery capacity is (by looking in a database of car models) not what its current state of charge actually is. So in reality you set a default routine on the charger to add 100% by 8am, and it tries to do that. Usually though the car is not fully empty when you plug it in, so it stops charging at some point before the charger has delivered 100%.

Our car does not support doing all the Google Drive stuff wirelessly, though more modern ones do apparently.

You can get wireless adapters which apparently work pretty well.

[By Google Drive I guess you mean Android Auto – GD is their cloud storage]