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  • The Electric Car Thread
  • Premier Icon Edukator
    Free Member

    All the threads I wanted to bump are over a year old so here’s an attempt at a durable thread.

    A couple of years ago we did a road trip in a Zoé 40 which showed up weaknesses in the charging infrastructure; when all else failed we found a campsite and charged overnight. This year we decided to visit family and friends so did Pau, Berlin, Lodz (Poland), Bavaria and Austria: 5050km.

    France still isn’t great, there’s a limited number of DC chargers and too many operators with different cards. We used 22kW chargers with Mobive (which is currently shambolic as they’re being taken over and twice required phone calls to start chargers), Leclerc, Lidl, Intermarché and local council chargers. The only 50kW DC charger on our route failed – there was a Dutch guy there with 2% battery wondring what to do next. All free or cheap as you’d expect with French electricity prices.

    Germany and Austria have gone from nightmarish to brilliant. Mobility+ has signed contracts with many of the 300+ operators to provide a nationwide network. Lots of 50-300kW DC chargers – we saw one of those new Porches using a 300kW charger near Munich. Every one we used worked as it should from the app. Pricing is better than it was too: 39cents for AC kWs and 47cents for DC kWs which is not bad considering the price of electricity in Germany and the 77cents of some competitors. Lidl and Aldi have 50kW chargers in some places too but we couldn’t find a simple way of knowing which of them had chargers. There are more than on the Chargemap app anyhow. There’s still a problem with with fully charged hybrids squatting chargers for free parking in some places so we went for fast chargers on autobahns when possible.

    Poland. Once we’d bought a Polish SIM card to put in the phone it was fine. You can only download the Orlan app with a Polish SIM (try it, I’d be interested to know if it’s just French SIMs that are blocked on Google Play). Orlan chargers are great and because they’re in a service station if they don’t work there’s someone there to sort them out.

    As for the new Zoé, the extra range and fast charging make 600km+ days confortable, confortable meaning 9 hours from leaving one hotel/camping to checking into the next. On a 50kW Orlan charger the Zoé charged at exactly the same rate as the Tesla Model 3 that was on it before, 37kw. We never saw more than 37kW on any charger, it was generaly hot and the car had done about 200km before the charge. 50mins for 70% of the battery was typical.

    Premier Icon littledave
    Free Member

    Impressive trip, Edukator.
    We have a Zoe 40 and Edinburgh to Glencoe is my idea of a long trip!

    One of the many good things about living in Scotland is that the vast majority of car charging points are on a single network, Chargeplace Scotland. The network is expanding fast as well with gdowing numbers of chargers in the Highlands.

    Enjoy the new Zoe, we will be running ours for a good few years yet as the range of 150 miles is more than enough since we also have a camper van. The only problem is that the fuel cost of the van seems eye watering when you are used to charging an EV on low cost electricity overnight. 😢

    Premier Icon matt303uk
    Full Member

    Enjoy your Zoes, back in 2015 we got a Zoe R240 (22kW charging, 22kWh battery) and our first long trip was from near Derby to the Galway coast in Ireland, really enjoyed that car back when you’d call a trip like that an EV adventure, although it was really easy. Since then we’ve had a couple of years with a 30kWh Soul EV and now a MG ZS EV which is OK but suffers a few what I’d call version 1 problems, especially in the software department.

    Premier Icon Edukator
    Free Member

    It was perhaps more impressive when we cycled to Berlin. 😉

    Have you asked for a software update, Matt? The first Zoé 40s had software gremlins which just required an update and our Zoé 50 had a few gremlins till we took it in for an update. It never stopped but gave messages such as “risque casse moteur” which we were told not to worry about and bring it in.

    Premier Icon hols2
    Free Member

    All the threads I wanted to bump are over a year old so here’s an attempt at a durable thread.

    Premier Icon matt303uk
    Full Member

    There’s a couple of software updates for the MG which will fix most of the irritating issues but we haven’t been able to get done due to Covid.

    Premier Icon phil5556
    Full Member

    I ordered mine in the middle of January and am still waiting for it to be delivered 😞
    Apparently it’s been at the dealer for over a week now but “being an electric vehicle the prep can take slightly longer“. That’s a direct quote from the dealer, I’m not sure what takes longer exactly.

    I’m quite looking forward to it arriving.

    Premier Icon Drac
    Full Member

    I’ve gone full electric as the Golf GTE was enough to convince me that they’re pretty damn good. I was looking at the ID3 but they’re still not ready so it’s an E Tron 50 as came through one of the cheapest with a good range too. Very much looking forward to it. There will a few trips that need a bit planning now and then but week on week it’ll be more than capable. I’m actually pretty excited to be going full ev.

    Premier Icon Edukator
    Free Member

    I had a brief chat with an e-Tron 95 driver at a charge point. They were doing a photo shoot for the new hyper chargers. I kindly moved Zoé out of the way out of frame onto a normal charger. The e-Tron manages to be big and imposing without (edit) being as agressive as some SUVs. The wheels on it were huge, I’m no VAG fan but have to admit that it’s a desirable vehicle for the times.

    Premier Icon oldtennisshoes
    Full Member

    @Drac I had a test drive in an eTron last year. I was absolutely blown away by it. All the tech from the dynamic range display on the SatNav to the way it uses the GPS data to anticipate upcoming roundabouts and initiate motor braking to maximise battery recovery.
    Is just about my perfect next car – just need the prices to come down a wee bit first.

    In other news our Zoe is back in action after being laid up with a broken from near side spring during full lock down. Range is 80+ miles which is more than enough for what we need it for.

    With me and mrs OTS both working from home both full time for the forseable though it’s hard to make a case for a new car for me.
    Unexpected consequences. 🤔

    Premier Icon phiiiiil
    Full Member

    Our three years with our ZE40 was up recently; we were going to just chop it in for a ZE50 but couldn’t find a Renault dealer who could be bothered to sell us one before we found a Hyundai Ioniq 38kwh in our price range.

    We never got the Zoe for financial reasons, but actually the net cost including its trade in value made it possibly the cheapest car I’ve ever had. Admittedly we got it at probably the best time in terms of grants and contributions, but even so it was surprising. That’s even before the miniscule fuel costs; 99% of our charging was on off-peak leccy at 5p/kWh.

    We looked at an Ioniq three years ago but discounted it because it charged using CCS; back then there just weren’t the chargers to make it useful for us. It’s quite incredible how many more chargers there are now than back then.

    Premier Icon Drac
    Full Member

    Yeah I seen one on the charger the other night looked like it has been delivered that day, as you big without being imposing and up the wheels look huge. The tech they are loaded with is ridiculously impressive, they are also have an app type store due out so you can add purchases on the fly. Basically the cars come with most tech fitted, you can add options after purchasing the car and it will unlock them. I’m big VAG fan absolutely love them, pretty much all reviews I’ve read rate the e tron highly.

    Premier Icon luket
    Full Member

    We went down the Tesla route and that is working well for us so far. I do a lot of 200 mile journeys and haven’t used a public charger in 6 months. But when we do do a long trip the superchargers mean that charging takes no longer than the break we would’ve taken anyway. Public charging therefore so infrequent that I think over time most owners of long range EVs could get quite insensitive to the cost of motorway DC charging, but it needs to get cheaper to persuade people into EV ownership in the first place. Where I have seen issues is in reliability and useability from my small number of non tesla public DC charges.

    Sounds like e tron tech is nice. The Tesla tech is imperfect as is well publicised, but then they all have their limitaions/issues. It’s developing all the time and I find it useful enough that nowadays a long journey without it feels like a right ball-ache. First World problems!

    I really didn’t want an suv. I just felt that whatever my power source and internal space requirements I wanted to avoid unnecessarily increasing consumption. So my big bugbear is that nearly all manufacturers are entering the EV matket with an SUV. Plus, for me specifically, the corresponding decrease in range would’ve introduced a public charge into my usual (usually either non stop or the stop is short) journey.

    Our second car is a diesel van (Transporter) and I wonder what we’ll replace that with when the time comes. I’m sure it’ll be electric. There’s an argument that we just don’t need a van (we don’t – it’s mainly used for putting bikes in the back and local trips when the car is away, and nearly all <100 mile days) and our second car could be an older small EV. Or perhaps an electric van. But I’m in no hurry since it doesn’t do many miles.

    Anyway, whichever brand I would find it hard to go back from electric to ICE.

    Premier Icon ta11pau1
    Full Member

    Been watching a Youtube channel which does various long road trips across the US, like thousands of miles from the east coast to the west coast, and back – the last one they’ve done is a tesla with free supercharging vs a wholly unsuitable road legal trackday car.

    One thing the tesla driver mentioned on the way back was that he ‘just wanted to get home’ but was limited by having to stop every 200 hundred miles to charge for half an hour or so.

    That I could see getting tiresome – you can’t just stop for 5 minutes, fill up and not have to stop for 600-700 miles, which is enough to get from one end of the UK to the other.

    Premier Icon Clover
    Full Member

    Tesla Model 3 with tow bar for bike rack here. It’s our do-it-all car. I have never been excited by a car before and I love it.

    We drove straight to France after buying it – absolutely flawless journey. Did it again for Christmas to see my family. It’s a less stressful drive than our previous cars and vans. Charging has been fine and the network has been there for the trips we have wanted to make so far. It mainly charges at home though.

    It’s been sitting on the drive for 4 months now though -and my OH has been out to sit in it from time to time as it has better heating (and air con) than the house…

    Premier Icon B.A.Nana
    Free Member

    That I could see getting tiresome – you can’t just stop for 5 minutes, fill up and not have to stop for 600-700 miles, which is enough to get from one end of the UK to the other.

    700 miles at 70 mph would take 10 hours (so realistically more like 12 hrs or more on uk roads). no one drives non stop for that length of time. I’d say 5 hours non stop is about the max which is actually about 300 miles on uk roads before someone would realistically need to take a decent break.

    I’ve done Lake Garda non stop but with 2 drivers, that’s the only circumstance that I can envisage it being an issue, but I’m not going to make a day to day car choice over an odd trip that happens once every few years, I’d sort a more suited car out.

    Battery tech / density is only going to improve and charger speeds are only going to get faster.

    Premier Icon robbo1234biking
    Full Member

    Got an eGolf in March but haven’t done any big trips in it yet as coincided with lockdown. We are going up to the Lakes in a couple of weeks for 2 nights so we might use it then and give it a go for stopping at public charge points etc. It is 190 miles from Derby to the Lakes so should need to stop once. Range isn’t as good on the eGolf (about 130-140 miles) but we got a good deal on it through work and is ideal for the majority of the city driving/school run etc.

    Premier Icon phil5556
    Full Member

    That I could see getting tiresome – you can’t just stop for 5 minutes, fill up and not have to stop for 600-700 miles, which is enough to get from one end of the UK to the other.

    How often do you drive from one end of the UK to the other?
    If you do it regularly then it’s probably not the vehicle for you, for the rest of the population it’s not an issue.

    The i3 we’re about to get should have a range of around 150+ miles, which for the majority of our journeys is more than enough. For the few journeys a year that I head down to Kent to see my mum I’ll take the other car, it’s 450miles, the car will do it on one tank but I’ve never done it without stopping at least once, usually twice.

    If I had a Tesla with over 200 miles range and a good charging network I’d take that, a couple of quick stops for a coffee and food would see enough charge to do the journey without it being tiresome.

    I don’t need to drive from one side of the USA to the other.

    (I’m ignoring the fact I also have a camper van, unfortunately I think large electric vans that would work for us are still a way off).

    Premier Icon ta11pau1
    Full Member

    How often do you drive from one end of the UK to the other?
    If you do it regularly then it’s probably not the vehicle for you, for the rest of the population it’s not an issue.

    Not that far, but I’ll have multiple trips in the next few months that require several hundred mile car journeys – Kent to west country, lakes, scotland, wales.

    Lots of people do only use their cars for under 100 mile trips, but a lot also use them for bigger journeys – and the UK is a small country, and not the only car market.

    Wasn’t saying it’ll stop people from buying them, just an interesting point to think about when your trips over, it’s lashing it down with rain, you’re 500 miles from home and really don’t want to have to stop and wait for yet another 40 minute charge…

    Premier Icon phil5556
    Full Member

    @ta11pau1 sounds like it’s not for you at the moment then, give it a few years and range will only get better.

    Our daily commute is 60 miles, so about 12,000 miles a year commuting before any other journeys. EV is perfect for that, we’ll see a significant saving in fuel costs and I won’t have to stop off at the garage on the way home after a nightshift to fill up with fuel.
    Buzzing about the country for work, not so useful.

    Premier Icon luket
    Full Member

    A 40 minute stop can be worse than no stop, of course, but the scenario where it’s a significant issue is not a common one. I think it’s overplayed by those who haven’t lived with a suitable EV and would like to find a reason to believe it wouldn’t suit them. I’ve driven from Devon to Scotland and back 3 times in ours. It’s a slightly different journey to ICE but not so much as makes any real world difference to my day. In fact some of the difference is positive, I felt. I’d have stopped for a break and to get some food anyway. Nowadays it takes maybe an extra half hour, unless with kids in which case we’d probably have been taking the extra break time anyway.

    As an aside, over the course of the year, if you’re in a long range car with access to genuinely fast charging, and were beforehand doing highish mileage in ICE, you might find that total time at petrol/charging stations is unchanged. I used to fill up every week. I guess that took more than 5 mins on average, plus smelly etc. Now if I stopped for >20 mins once a month my total time taken would be the same.

    One scenario where a big disadvantage occurs is high mileage across multiple shorter journeys. Like someone visiting lots of work sites an hour or two apart. In winter average consumption in this scenario is relatively very poor so range is hit quite hard.

    Premier Icon johnhe
    Full Member

    For those guys who’ve mentioned the possibility of electric vans, I’ve recently been having some conversations with engine companies who are investing in hydrogen technology (not fuels cells). I‘m far from an expert, but it sound to me like larger vehicles will go that way, rather than battery technology, which is suitable for smaller vehicles.

    I’m not looking to derail this useful thread, or start an argument. People seem to be largely either on one side of the electric vehicle debate of the other. And both see very dismissive of the other side’s opinions.

    However, the guys I spoke to about the hydrogen engine development were extremely scathing about how dirty lithium batteries were. They were quite adamant that when you look at “cradle to grave”, electric vehicles based on battery technology are considerably more dirty than diesel ones. However, the source of the electricity to charge the battery seemed to be the big deciding factor – and since that is getting cleaner all the time (higher percentage of renewables) then perhaps their argument isn’t so persuasive.

    But for sure, those guys were absolutely 100% confident that, at least for construction machinery, alternative fuels are a much, much cleaner alternative to any lithium based technology.

    Premier Icon ta11pau1
    Full Member

    Yeah if the range increases to 300+ and a proper solution for on street charging in rented houses appears I’ll definitely consider one as my next car.

    Bought a 2.5 year old 2.0 diesel (57mpg on the motorway with a bike on the back) in October 2019 so won’t be looking at anything for a few years, so hopefully by that time there’ll be something in my price range and the infrastructure will be a bit better.

    Premier Icon chestrockwell
    Full Member

    The i3 we’re about to get should have a range of around 150+ miles,

    Had my i3s for a month or so and can confirm the range is accurate. It’s a great little thing and perfect for buzzing around locally. I don’t think I’ll ever get bored of the instant ‘go’!

    Premier Icon dantsw13
    Free Member

    I’ll want one with higher range, possibly the Polestar 2 or the Ford Mustang. Before this year’s madness my work were looking to introduce an EV scheme which would half the price, so I’ll wait until then.

    Premier Icon simon_g
    Full Member

    Still enjoying our eGolf. Petrol car is still SORN from lockdown (I’ll get around to taxing it in August..) so been using it for everything as we get out and about again.

    Family trip down to Dover Castle all OK with a little top up at the restaurant we stopped at on on the homeward leg. Then this weekend we dropped off the kids with their grandparents and went away for the night for a Stonehenge visit, about 350 miles in all. Easy with a quick stop at the services on the way down, hotel had charging, then another quick stop by Virginia Water on the way home. Actually walked for a bit longer than planned so the car was just about full when we got back to it.

    No waiting around, no broken chargers, no issues so far. Rapid charging cost about a tenner for that distance. I still plan big journeys, and pretty conservatively too, but not been inconvenienced by it. Took it as a 2 year lease to see if this was “enough” range for us – while more is definitely nicer, I’m not clamouring for a Telsa or eNiro or something. Currently thinking if we bought a car at the end of this lease something like a 28kWh Ioniq would do us fine.

    Premier Icon WorldClassAccident
    Free Member

    Slightly different to most on this thread but I got an old Nissan Leaf for the sole purpose of driving 2 miles to the train station and back, 1 mile to the super market and back, B&Q / Tip / into town etc. It is a second car (3rd in fact) and serves to protect the engines on my nice cars from short cold running trips.

    I made this review after a couple of week with it : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NEu_E3ukiY8

    I actually feel slightly better towards it now. It is so simple and inoffensive I tend to use it without really noticing it. This is very different to my other cars where I actually enjoy the driving process.

    The biggest shock to me was how few times I actually need to use one of the petrol cars because of range anxiety. The occasional trip up to see my mother, the odd trip out around the New Forest at the weekend but that’s about it. for £5K it is a really good second car but I still think I could get the petrol equivalent (Nissan Note?) for probably £2K so I am paying £3K for the experience.

    Premier Icon simon_g
    Full Member

    MG 5 estate reviews out today, probably the most appealing MTBer EV yet. Golf/Astra estate size, 214 miles on WLTP test, 80kW charging, £25k (which will probably get discounted a bit more). Looks decent.

    https://www.carmagazine.co.uk/car-news/first-official-pictures/mg/5-ev-electric-estate/

    Premier Icon mrmonkfinger
    Free Member

    They were quite adamant that when you look at “cradle to grave”, electric vehicles based on battery technology are considerably more dirty than diesel ones.

    Batteries don’t get dropped off by the battery fairy, and cells degrade. Cell life is being increased though, it’s a thing that can definitely improve. When cell life is longer that cradle-to-grave balance will tilt way more in favour of electric.

    Premier Icon tjagain
    Full Member

    They were quite adamant that when you look at “cradle to grave”, electric vehicles based on battery technology are considerably more dirty than diesel ones.

    I am not electric vehicle fan believing them to be the wrong answer to the wrong question but I really do not think this is true. In a country with a relatively dirty electricity supply they are a bit better. In a country with a cleaner electricity supply they are a chunk better

    fossil fuel power stations IIRC produce less pollution per unit of energy than an ICE due to running more efficiently even after transmission losses. renewables even less. Nuclear – it depends on your views on the waste. Its really very hard to compare

    Premier Icon Drac
    Full Member

    Seen an ID3 yesterday which is what I was originally was considering but they were delayed massively. Looked pretty nice on the outside couldn’t really tell on the inside as it was covered in condensation but looked Ok.

    Premier Icon hols2
    Free Member

    Woo hoo, $25 000 Tesla due next year (unless Elon Musk is just making shit up).

    https://www.cnbc.com/2018/08/18/elon-musk-tesla-could-produce-a-25000-car-in-3-years&#8211;.html

    Premier Icon BlobOnAStick
    Full Member

    Mrs BOAS wants a Mini-e. We test drove it and it was a fun little car with plenty of ‘go’ and nice handling. Anyone got any real-life experience?

    Premier Icon robertpb
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    That $25,000 Tesla is 3 years away according to Elon Musk, so that’s probably 4 plus years.

    Premier Icon hols2
    Free Member

    That $25,000 Teasla is 3 years away according to Elon Musk, so that’s probably 4 plus years.

    That article was published in 2018, so next year if Musk is to be believed. Obviously, he just makes shit up whenever he feels like it, so 4 years from now is less improbable than 3 years from 2018.

    Premier Icon chestrockwell
    Full Member

    We’ve got a BMW i3s and think it’s ace. Great on the school run and for buzzing about town + the range has been fine for what we need. Lack of meetings due to Covid means it’s not getting as many long trips in but my 22 mile work commute is very peaceful. I use the comfort settings more than I thought too as they really do make a difference to how it drives.

    Premier Icon robertpb
    Full Member

    The 3 years was actually what came out of Elon Musk’s shareholder Battery day yesterday 22nd September 2020

    You can watch the whole presentation here https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/tesla-battery-day-recap/

    Premier Icon hols2
    Free Member

    The 3 years was actually what came out of Elon Musk’s shareholder Battery day yesterday 22nd September 2020 in August 2018

    FTFY

    https://electrek.co/2018/08/17/tesla-cheaper-25000-electric-car-elon-musk/

    Premier Icon Daffy
    Full Member

    EVs are substantially cleaner (cradle to grave) than a Diesel and will pay back the CO2 involved in their manufacturing/disposal in ~40k miles vs 22k miles for a modern small petrol or diesel. The figure assumes the car is ran on green energy and that the battery is recycled at EOL, same as the car. From 40k miles onwards, it can be totally green so long as that’s how you buy you electricity.


    @tjagain
    – why? They reduce polution, even when power for them is generated in gas burning power stations – carbon capture and storage is possible at a powerstation, not on a vehicle. They’re also a step in the right direction.

    1. Get people interested in EVs.
    2. Get people into EVs
    3. Make it a stipulation that those with EVs use only more expensive green power generation
    4. Channel the extra money into more renewables.

    Side benefits – most of the epople I know who own EVs drive better, more considerately and consider their actions in a car more. They anticipate better as they want to regen rather than brake, they accelerate slower (once they’ve gotten over the buzz that an electric car can give) because its more peaceful/sedate. it becomes a mindset, not just a car and a driver.

    Of course there are idiots (mostly in Tesla’s) but there always will be.

    My greatest sadness in all of this is that we had a real chance to change the automobile, to make it light, efficient, fit for purpose, but Tesla’s constant persuit of speed, power and range has tuned them into really big, really heavy electric monsters.

    I bought my I3 because it was designed like an EV should be. What range is mostly adequate? How can we make it as light as possible? How much more efficient cant we make it whilst still making it look good (or, as I know the looks aren’t favourable to some… at the vesy least interesting? etc.

    Premier Icon Daffy
    Full Member

    FTFY

    https://electrek.co/2018/08/17/tesla-cheaper-25000-electric-car-elon-musk/


    @hols2
    – he said the $25000 Will be ready in 3 years and he said it YESTERDAY. It doesn’t matter what he said in 2018 other than he perhaps should have said “5 years” in 2018.

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