The demonised underclass

Blame an out of control welfare state.

But this a welfare state where the largest proportions of “handouts” are given as pensions or in work benefits, such as housing benefit, working families tax credits, etc.

Not the non working “scroungers”

We need a poorlyfare state !

We need to bring workhouses back!

We should have a level of salary for the poorest paid that offers a fair living standard, and is affordable by the employer. I think the minimum wage in the UK is set too low, and should be higher (£8.50?).

DInt disagree but folk paid poorly and treated badly wont work very hard. Its not that surprising as capitalists accept that money incentivises people and lefties like the living wage angle

As for housing as noted we need more houses but we need houses new entrants can afford to buy and /or rent.

Get the underclass back in line, with compulsory work schemes,

Firstly well we already do this
Secondly making folk do work for free is hardly likely to increase employment.
Locally we had high turnover employers giving “work trials” to the unemployed in jobs that require no training – shelf stacking, ticket sales booth operator etc. The net effect was to increase unemployment. I see why some folk want to do this but it really does not work.

housing single mums with extended family (even if it is a squash)

Shakes head accepting , that for once, words fail me. Even IDS would object to that.

BigBlackShed- Sorry pensions are not a ” handout “, they were paid in, and frankly a lot of pensioners would be rather upset if you said this to their face. Working tax credits are not coming out of the tax kitty, rather it is money not going in to the kitty, by way of helping those on low working income. No problem there.
My broader point was to offer alternative ideas to help the demonised underclass rather than being defensive of the welfare state as an entrenched left-wing viewpoint.
Many bright forum users on here, but unfortunately many get caught up in left-wing, right-wing bickering rather than productive suggestions.
Over to you.

There was an interesting stat in the Guardian last week about wage rates. The cost to taxpayers of subsidising working people with tax credits and housing benefit, as they can’t afford to live, is £11 billion a year. Of this, over £1 billion is just the main supermarkets.

Sorry pensions are not a ” handout “, they were paid in,

You can sign on all your life and get a full state pension. It is not nor has it ever been a Quid pro Quo – there is no kitty paid into or otherwise

tax credits often help multi nationals and billion pound making companies pay low wages to their staff so that other poor people can subsidise other poor people to go to work so really rich people can make even more profit.

unfortunately many get caught up in left-wing, right-wing bickering rather than productive suggestions.
Over to you.

Thank you. Have you any idea how ridiculous this comment is ?

“Britain needs to radically overhaul itself from the current ultra- capitalist society that we have presently”

Ultra-capitalist ? You’re raging about the welfare state and talking of ultra-capitalism in the same breath ? How does the NHS state pensions etc fit in your ultra-capitalist society ?

And you talk about “some kind of capitalist/communist partnership”. The NHS was founded on the principal “from each according to their ability to each according to their need” the most basic tenet of communism.

[/quote]We need to bring workhouses back!

and the guillotine !

Junkyard, here’s another suggestion- building our own trains(in deprived areas) and building our own railway system (HS2 is French). Helping the demonised underclass.
Got any ideas ? (I mean that in a non sarcastic way my friend)

I’d wager even the most ardent left wing STWer and Union member buys stuff off the internet to save money, the internet provider is generally cheaper as it pays less tax, has cheaper labour costs and premises. It’s nothing to do with political affiliations its about human behaviour.

@thebees – the State pension is most certainly not paid out based upon contributions paid in in the past. Today’s employees are paying current retirees pensions. We have to hope there are people working when we retire to pay our state pensions.

Working tax credits do come out of “the tax kitty”. It is paid to working families where one or more work over 16 hours? Per week and their gross pay is below £26K. They will still be paying tax on anything over £10600, your personal allowance.

I agree that pensioners have paid in, but if the welfare bill is too large then we need to look at the whole welfare bill. You can’t cherry pick the bits you like to protect, and then blame others because you don’t.

I understand the life of welfare, I’ve been in the position where I needed to claim, I’ve also been in the position where I was working for the money to buy the fuel to drive to work to earn the money to buy the fuel. Full time employed being paid minimum wage was £20 per week better off than on benefits. That £20 went in the car to drive to work. That was the only job it could get. It would have been easy to give up work and stop at home rather than work nights for no more.

A long time ago I was long term unemployed. I did various work trials and skills courses, I’m a mechanical engineer by trade, to help find work. There were no jobs, only short term contract jobs with no prospects or no guarantee of hours next week. There has to be dignity in work, not forced labour.

It’s not about left v right. It’s about wrong v human.

housing single mums with extended family (even if it is a squash)

Shakes head accepting , that for once, words fail me. Even IDS would object to that.

yeah! if Dad runs off with the secretary, Mum deserves to lose the house! It was probably her fault for going out without a male escort and shaming the family. Sounds fair.

Also I note that last year about 1.1 million housing benefit claimants were actually in work.

Read an article last week by a landlord rather worried that the proposed benefits cap reduction will hit landlords the most, since any reductions will come out of housing benefits (as JSA etc are fixed). Didn’t expect landlords to be so worried. Will be interested to see how it plays out…

Junkyard, why is housing single mums within existing family so headshakingly awful ? Oh, it must be because of all the empty houses that need filling and the excess of cash that the country has to spend on them.

Ernie Lynch, just calm down. I refer to a more communist approach to manufacturing and economic growth. Lets nationalise some large-scale pro-active projects(that I’ve already mentioned) and help people that way.

Still waiting for other suggestions…..

I don’t think the taxpayer should be subsidising the supermarkets, this is a perfect example of how the demise of small shops has cost the tax payer. However people are short sighted, they just see the cost saving to them of paying less for goods without understanding the low cost comes at the expense of staff and suppliers which ultimately has to be paid by the state. it is however true that a lot of that subsidy comes from someone else, ie “the rich”

As an aside it makes little sense to have a national minimum wage as living costs vary significantly throughout the country, it should vary by region

bigblackshed – Member
…It’s not about left v right. It’s about wrong v human.

Well said. It’s as simple as that.

I don’t think the taxpayer should be subsidising the supermarkets, this is a perfect example of how the demise of small shops has cost the tax payer. However people are short sighted, they just see the cost saving to them of paying less for goods without understanding the low cost comes at the expense of staff and suppliers which ultimately has to be paid by the state. it is however true that a lot of that subsidy comes from someone else, ie “the rich”

I agree

I think this was one of the inevitable results of tax credits (as, arguably, increased rents were an inevitable result of underwriting rent with housing benefit) trouble is that to withdraw them now would result in significant price rises on basic items to cover wage increases, which would inevitably hit the poor hardest – not an easy position to get out of Im afraid 🙁

Ernie Lynch, just calm down.

What I bizarre comment. It’s you who’s ranting about “an out of control welfare state” and the “current ultra- capitalist society that we have presently”

And demanding that we get “the underclass back in line, with compulsory work schemes” and “housing single mums with extended family (even if it is a squash)”.

I’m sure that if you had a tub in front of you you would be thumping it.

You sound like a right tub-thumper if ever there was one 🙂

ernie_lynch – Member
Have you any idea how silly that sort of comment sounds ?
I guess not.

No but there is a lot to live down to. Fortunately, I have a good role model. Cheers.

Junkyard, why is housing single mums within existing family so headshakingly awful ?

(partially) because it hands their accommodation security over to the father. If he stays – mother and child have somewhere to live. If he leaves, they’ve got to pack and get out, and hope that the parents can help out. They have no control. It’d go down a treat in Saudi Arabia but we don’t want that kind of stuff in the UK.

We really need to stop seeing single mothers – who are, by definition, the ones who stuck around to look after the child – as people who need punishing. It’s absent fathers who need a kicking.

(partially) because it hands their accommodation security over to the father. If he stays – mother and child have somewhere to live. If he leaves, they’ve got to pack and get out, and hope that the parents can help out.

I don’t think anyone has ever suggested that as an option, only that for a ‘single girl living at home with family and not currently in priority need’ (very low down on the housing list) getting pregnant does not automatically endow ‘priority need’ (near the top of the housing list) (there may obviously be other factors involved which may lead to it though)

HOUSE on the right wing myths

From Generations on benefits and we have getting pregnant to get a house

http://england.shelter.org.uk/get_advice/social_housing/applying_for_social_housing/who_gets_priority

You can prove anything with facts though

doris5000 – Member
…We really need to stop seeing single mothers – who are, by definition, the ones who stuck around to look after the child – as people who need punishing. It’s absent fathers who need a kicking.

You’re right.

The best contraception is when young guys get to realise the costs of supporting a child. 🙂

Housing crisis has been created by the bribery/sale of council housing , a thatcherite policy that was short sighted , useful in the sense that it created a whole pool of home’owners’ who had a one off bargain, giving the illusion that they had joined the property owning classes , rather than a long term debt.

I am working on a building site , so called self employed-a tax fiddle essentially , promoted by the state , to keep the industry casual, its a major problem that us trade unionists have been fighting for as long as i csan remember , not much has changed essentially .

The employer subs the work out to many sub contractors, who then use us , all cuts of the cake , you see the big cars turning up , with some beady eyed suit scuttling around, out of his comfort zone, they all have fancy titles , with salaries and bonuses to go, yet the job does not require any input from these people , in truth , they are superfluous to it, yet there is a whole stratum of them , in all industries —living very well off our backs …….

The undemonised parasite class …….

The undemonised parasite class …….

No, they’re called “hard working families” now. 🙄

Funny how no one ever mentions technology as destroying jobs for the poorly educated. Spreadsheets can do what used to take a team of clarks. You can run some factors with very few people but a lot of robots. The guys looking after the robots do okay, but there is no longer a job for a bloke putting in a screw. Likewise supermarkets, think how the self service tills are saving cost and putting people out of work. But you can’t stop progress. Personally I think tech will put more money into the hands of the educated and take from the less.

technology has enabled capitalism to adapt and ‘prosper’ -but the fruits are not shared…..i agree dragon , technology could liberate us all from menial and mundane tasks, but only if it is for the benefit of all –not a possibility under a system that can only survive through expoitation –i’m an optimist , though, and i’m sure that eventually humans will truimph, the alternative is destruction ….