[Closed] The demonised underclass

Interesting assumption in the article

How long is ‘three generations’? Maybe sixty years,

He's clearly not spent much time around where I grew up!

When IDS referred to personal observations he probably watched an episode of "Bread" on Gold and thought it was a documentary.

Politicians exaggerating or even inventing 'facts' to further their own agenda.

What a novel concept...........

Examples
Word Origin

noun
1.
the entire body of individuals born and living at about the same time:
the postwar generation.
2.
[b]the term of years, roughly 30 among human beings[/b], accepted as the average period between the birth of parents and the birth of their offspring.

The average age for first time mothers is about 30. But I would class a generation to be about 20 years.

The evil she bitch that my dad had the misfortune to marry certainly had a family of the work shy.
Her son always managed to have some sort of injury that only affected him between 9 and 5. His daughter had a kid at 16 and now has a council house . Never worked a day in her life.

Fascinating zippy, really is.

When I worked with HB claimants, I knew of families where parents and grandparents hadn't had regular employment for years, and were unlikely to get it in the near future, but you never met families where no one had ever had a job as it's portrayed.

Though from my experience, and MrsMC working in child protection, there are some families who could justifiably be demonised for a variety of reasons.

I've known people who have only just got into work at 40 because their benefits were being cut and tax topups are now better value, all self employed and all no doubt fiddling that.

there are some families who could justifiably be demonised for a variety of reasons.

Some families aren't nice ? 🙁

Ernie - UK wide there's about 6-7,000 under 16 pregnancies annually, about 25-30k under 18

Where I grew up it certianly [i]used to be[/i] a passport to getting your own flat, and was openly discussed as such by a minority of girls at school as if it was a career option.

Its an interesting read, but anyone with a brain(excludes those reading right wing media) would see that if you de-industrialise areas such as Glasgow and Middlesborough with the brutality that was used in the 1980's, then you will have pockets of unemployment.

Perhaps IDS is a futurologist. Rather than "claiming" three generations of families that have never worked, maybe he's telling us of the times to come, and since we have done jack sh*t about it so far, and with no signs of us doing anything about it anytime in the near future, then we could have a few generations lost.

Ernie - UK wide there's about 6-7,000 under 16 pregnancies annually

Really ? I'm stunned, with all the fuss papers such as the Daily Mail create I would have expected the figure to be really high.

I've known people who have only just got into work at 40 because their benefits were being cut and tax topups are now better value, all self employed and all no doubt fiddling that.

And I know people who were pushed down that line by their jobcenters in order to reduce unemployment figures and meet targets.

I've just checked Z-11 and apparently the problem is getting [u]smaller[/u] !

[img] [/img]

Who would have thought it eh ?

As I say, I'm stunned !

Goverments encouraged the poor to breed with payments and housing when the rich needed workers , move on a few years and the rich move production abroad technology also kills of jobs the result lots ofe poor unemployed, not really thier fault,

How about we stop paying people to breed and reward the ones who dont?

If there are to be financial rewards for not having sex, can anyone recommend me an all round lightweight full susser. No budget constraints.

How about we stop paying people to breed

Spot on!! People bang on about living within your means and yet that seems to go out the window when it comes to those on benefits.

At the very least, child benefit should be capped at 1-2 children (assuming it isn't already) and removed completely for those on high earnings.

Who would have thought it eh ?

You mean years of demonising teenage single mums, reducing benefits available to them, and stopping it from being a shortcut up the housing list is working?

I agree, shocking, isn't it?

Goverments encouraged the poor to breed with payments and housing when the rich needed workers ,

Such absolute tosh and piffle in such a short sentence..........WELL DONE !

Obviously demonising single mums is a good thing in ninfan world...christ some people have ugly viewpoints.

Have a read of CHAVS, the demonisation of the working classes by Owen Jones, a great easy to read book, that shows how the press and media demonised certain elements of society, and as for people who havent worked i nominate Mrs windsors off spring eg queenies, a huge gang of scroungers living on state benefits for life.

You mean years of demonising teenage single mums, reducing benefits available to them, and stopping it from being a shortcut up the housing list is working?

I agree, shocking, isn't it?

Spot on, Ninfan, as ever. Funny how many of the underclass also manage to smoke dope and fags on their meagre state benefits. 🙂

if you de-industrialise areas such as Glasgow and Middlesborough with the brutality that was used in the 1980's, then you will have pockets of unemployment.

Statements like this wind me up like nothing else; I started my working life as an industrial temp in the 1980s and I was shocked and disillusioned at the attitudes I encountered in factories; there was a massive entitlement culture and resistance to modernisation from workers and management alike and the unions absolutely stank of resentment, intransigence and bitter envy. When I look at the pictures of derelict factories on 28dayslater and other Urbex sites I am amazed that Britain still has any manufacturing left at all, we certainly did our best to wreck our own manufacturing industry. I have no sympathy with the whining self-pitying lefties who blame politicians, an easy target, for their own downfall. Sadly their inability to take responsibility still infects Britain today.

Obviously demonising single mums is a good thing in ninfan world...christ some people have ugly viewpoints.

Didn't you learn anything from the General Election? Your sort of hand wringing, bien pensant, liberal leftism isn't exactly in tune with public opinion at the moment, thankfully.

Indeed, the "I'll look after myself and **** everyone else" opinion of about 25% of the country has won through. Great isn't it.

Selfish Britain for the 21st century 🙁

anagallis_arvensis - Member
Obviously demonising single mums is a good thing in ninfan world...christ some people have ugly viewpoints.

It's the ****s who abandon them who should be slammed.

If you want a broken society make sure that kids are raised in deprivation and poverty.

We should support single mothers to the best of our ability regardless. Their kids are part of our future.

If you want a broken society make sure that kids are raised in deprivation and poverty.

What do you mean if? We generated tens of thousands of them in the 80s and still have no idea how to fix the problem....

footflaps - Member
What do you mean if? We generated tens of thousands of them in the 80s and still have no idea how to fix the problem....

You want even more?

IDS should have just quoted his source as Tony Blair. Three generations who had never worked would seem a bit unlikely, I could imagine three generations who had spent considerable periods on the dole or who had claimed some form of benefits over their entire lives but not never worked

There are plenty of kids who live in broken households with parents who neither have a clue of give a flying fig. The only way to break the cycle of depravation and low esteem and aspiration is for the state to make up for the inadequate parenting. Sadly funding does not allow this. I know from my own area, there is rarely a "bad family" there are families that have lots of bad attitudes and education in them, but even these families produce great people if only the society was geared to support them

The Underclass ?

Jeremy Kyle....The Archers

Cheap Lager... Red Wine

Sponging off the tax payer..Politicians

Uneducated...Dilettante

50" TV's.....Mountain Bikes

We're all just people trying to get along as best we can !

Statements like this wind me up like nothing else; I started my working life as an industrial temp in the 1980s and I was shocked and disillusioned at the attitudes I encountered in factories; there was a massive entitlement culture and resistance to modernisation from workers and management alike and the unions absolutely stank of resentment, intransigence and bitter envy.

ernie_lynch - Member
there are some families who could justifiably be demonised for a variety of reasons.
Some families aren't nice ?

CHB - Member
There are plenty of kids who live in broken households with parents who neither have a clue of give a flying fig. The only way to break the cycle of depravation and low esteem and aspiration is for the state to make up for the inadequate parenting. Sadly funding does not allow this. I know from my own area, there is rarely a "bad family" there are families that have lots of bad attitudes and education in them, but even these families produce great people if only the society was geared to support them

Obviously demonising single mums is a good thing in ninfan world...christ some people have ugly viewpoints.

Go back and read what was said oh sanctimonious one...

We were talking about [u]teenage[/u] single mums

In case you hadn't heard, governments have been putting effort into this for some years, the reason being that (in the words of the ONS):

[i]Why do Teenage Conceptions Matter?
It is widely understood that teenage pregnancy and early motherhood can be associated with poor educational achievement, poor physical and mental health, social isolation, poverty and related factors. There is also a growing recognition that socio-economic disadvantage can be both a cause and a consequence of teenage motherhood (Swann et al, 2003).

In England this led the previous Government to set a target to halve the teenage conception rate by 2010, when compared with 1998. Local authorities set ten year strategies in place, aiming to reduce the local rate between 40% and 60%. These local targets were to help underpin the national 50% reduction target.
[/i]

So, which part of that would you like to disagree with from your Ivory tower? 😉

ninfan - Member
...We were talking about teenage single mums...

And we should be also talking about the other half of that equation, the scumbags who abandon their children and leave the state to take up the slack.

There's nothing fundamentally wrong with teenage mums - 100 years ago it was not unusual. It's the deprivation of being left holding the baby that is the problem.

ninfan - Member

You mean years of demonising teenage single mums, reducing benefits available to them, and stopping it from being a shortcut up the housing list is working?

That is the reason for the falling numbers, you know that for certain ? Because ?

If it is the case it's very clear from the graph that the turn around and the sharp drop in numbers occurred under a Labour government. So we don't need the Tories and IDS to tackle the 'problem', that's patently obvious ..... is it not ?

So it's a surprisingly small 'problem' which has been getting smaller for about the last 20 years, despite what the Daily Mail and frothing right-wing ranters like you claim.

Btw there has only been two women in my life who had a child at 16, one is a very close personal friend and the other was a former g/f who I was with for a couple of years or so. The close personal friend has been in paid employment most of her adult life, and the former g/f was in full time employment when I met her and carried on being in full time employment during the time I was with her. But you want to demonise them, and you think it's good to demonise them. I prefer to demonise frothing right-wing ranters like you 🙂

Just would like to point out to the various Union bashers on this thread that virtually all your employment rights have come about due to unions fighting for them, it also amazes me that people have viewed union activity and attitudes historically as negative and anti business when I fact they were protecting their members interests (pay conditions etc)

Daily mail type propaganda says the unions destroyed our manufacturing industries yet Nissan (and many others) have some of their most successful plants in the UK using unionised labour.

Take away the working classes "work" and you remove dignity - the minimum wage, zero hours, no skills jobs create unmotivated human beings - 30 years ago at 21 years old I was earning £5 an hour as a skilled craftsman (double time on Sundays!) probably the equivalent of £20 an hour today how many 21 year olds on here make £40k a year at the moment. Oh and that was in the North East of England.

Governments were aware of the detrimental effects of high levels of (some) teenage pregnanices as outlined by the ONS and other non party political/partisan social studies and reports .Teenage pregnancies have been reducing because the Blair/ Labour government took active steps to try to reduce it through a range of strategies - better sex/relationship education,contraception advice, improving life+employment prospects,more access to higher education etc etc rather than the punitive measures beloved by the tabloid "Daily Mail" types.More of a carrot than stick approach.For all the justified criticism of the Blairite regime on many issues, these measures and others like Surestart were long term,required investment and were for the benefit of the underclass and eventually society as a whole-and seem to be working.

And the article linked to in the OP is fundamentally flawed in several respects,primarily neglecting to mention sickness related benefits.

Being controversial why not set a minimum wage before you could claim for benefits! That might get some lazy people into work and maybe think twice before breeding like a plague of rats!

That might get some lazy people into work and maybe think twice before breeding like a plague of rats!

This thread just gets better and better!

Curvature = cracking advert for contraception.

if you want to see inside the minds of tories , some of the comments on this thread are priceless- fortunately i'm lucky not to be afflicted with such bitter and selfish thoughts.....

I would support child benefit being capped at two kids (not applied retrospectively) but ONLY if more funding went to schools to support directly the development, education and nutrition of kids who need the extra help.

Development, education and nutrition are things that schools should provide anyway, to all children, regardless of background. However, I agree they should have a major role to play in the lives of those less fortunate.

I would support child benefit being capped at two kids

This just makes kids suffer because their parents didn't use contraception. It isn't the child's fault that they were born into a larger family.

If you want to cut birth rates effectively, improve the education and employment prospects of 16-30 year old women. Across practically all societies and time periods, the better women are educated and integrated into the labour force, the fewer children they have.

In any case, this whole conversation is a distraction. Teenage pregnancies have been dropping for decades, as have birth rates across the population as a whole. The UK has an aging population and needs immigration to keep the economically productive part of the population "pyramid" stocked.

The idea that a statistically significant part of the UK's political or economic situation is to do with teenage mothers is just cobblers. It's not even a Top 20 problem. You can add up the total "cost" of every teenage mother in the UK and it wouldn't even come close to a single big ticket capitalist ballsup like the mismanagement of the privatisation of the Royal Mail.

The idea that a statistically significant part of the UK's political or economic situation is to do with teenage mothers is just cobblers. It's not even a Top 20 problem. You can add up the total "cost" of every teenage mother in the UK and it wouldn't even come close to a single big ticket capitalist ballsup like the mismanagement of the privatisation of the Royal Mail.

Yes but at least admit that it's "shocking".

Give some credit to Daily Mail readers who for years have been frothing with anger and indignation over the issue.

wouldn't even come close to a single big ticket capitalist ballsup like the mismanagement of the privatisation of the Royal Mail.

Sssshhhhh, no, we can't talk about stuff like that as people don't like it. The Tories got back in you know.

Oldmanmtb +1

As long as insert "scumbag of choice" is getting shown the boot I'm alright 8)

'Human' beings are getting thin on the ground on here Eh 😐

oldmanmtb +1

I hope the tories and their fanboys choke on their own bile

its interesting to see the unabashed boldness of the right , after they have won a majority ( in a rigged system ) they feel they can let rip their prejudices and petty mindedness , a good mental health system would be needed to help these people ......

So rudebwoy what has been announced in the last few days to cause you so much angst?

RMail - so company can now access capital to invest better and we get a 4% yield to boot. And that's a disaster!?! Sounds like it's a relief that the nasty lot have the keys rather than the oppo in that case.

it's more noticeable on here and out and about rather than amongst the toffs and pillocks in charge..

how many cowardly wallies are suddenly spouting spiteful nonsense now they feel they've got a handful of chums to back their ideologies up..

makes my skin crawl...tis some fruity fruity behaviour 😕

What kind of spiteful nonsense? There certainly seems a lot of bile being raged since last weeks result - but as from which side, well.....

shut it Voldemort!!!

Who said that? Which thread was it on?

are you really asking me to sit here and look for examples of nasty right wing sentiment to quote..!?

hmmmmmm... that would be a fascinating way to spend my Sunday afternoon 😆

you're a nipple mate

are you really asking me to sit here and look for examples of nasty right wing sentiment to quote..!?

Can't be that hard surely?

hmmmmmm... that would be a fascinating way to spend my Sunday afternoon

I would prefer to go for a ride, true! We've had enough politics for a while

you're a nipple mate

Cheers, that's very nice.

"are you really asking me to sit here and look for examples of nasty right wing sentiment to quote..!?"

Can't be that hard surely?

If you agree that it's not that hard why are you asking someone to do it for you ?

If you really need a helping hand try "breeding like a plague of rats" on this very page.

Or are you now going to deny that it's a nasty right wing sentiment ?

its interesting to see the unabashed boldness of the right , after they have won a majority ( in a rigged system ) they feel they can let rip their prejudices and petty mindedness , a good mental health system would be needed to help these people ......

The views being expressed recently are no different than they were 12 months ago. What has changed is that prior to the election some STW posters were able to pass off the opinions being expressed as the ramblings of a demented few, after all it's easier to deal with views you don't like if you can pass them off as fictitious or in the minority.

The most vocal on here thought Labour would win or there'd be another coalition at the very least, suddenly having to accept that a decent chunk of the electorate don't share your views is proving to be a problem for some on here.

If the shouty lefty types had bothered to listen over the last few years they might have seen this coming.

Here's a couple of facts. The over 60s now outnumber those under 16....and the over 85s are the fastest growing group in society.
Who do you think they vote for?....given that a large part of UKIPs three million votes consist of the 'grey vote' and Tory voters are typically dismissed as grey haired lunatics do you think the country will suddenly lurch to the left any time soon?

Idealistic views (from either end of the political spectrum) are lovely but have little place in the real world, you'd think people would realise this by now.
Contrary to vocal popular opinion on here we're not a young leftist electorate.

This years pay rise offer is 2% implemented from July ie 6mths @ the new rate before negotiations start again!
Any new starts in the company start on different contracts which include less holidays and several thousands of £££s less than the test of us!!!!!

So you're getting a pay rise which is pretty decent despite other people starting in similar jobs earning less? My heart bleeds.....

just would like to point out to the various Union bashers on this thread that virtually all your employment rights have come about due to unions fighting for them, it also amazes me that people have viewed union activity and attitudes historically as negative and anti business when I fact they were protecting their members interests (pay conditions etc)

I would agree that the unions did great work in their early years and were the force that made working in the UK a great deal better for many people. However their antics since the 70's have distanced themselves from a lot of people.
A recent example is this - I worked in retail when the crash came in 2008 and managed to keep my job but didn't get any cost of living increases for 2 years. At the end of that period I moved to be a civil servant. When I got there I was astonished to find the union there was demanding a 4% pay rise (2010 ish) and thought that this was perfectly reasonable. The people I met who were in the union and active in promoting it clearly had no idea about the wider world and just thought they were entitled to whatever they asked for. IIRC we got about 2% (might have been less) and I was astonished we got that, I was chuffed, but the whining unionists just wouldn't shut up about it. When I told them what it was like outside their own little bubble they just turned into brick walls, nothing you said to them made any difference. And that's the attitude you get with a lot of union people, they are so insistent they push their own agenda, which is fine, but they never listen to reason or want to debate anything properly.

The sad thing is that I was considering joining the union before I got there but there is no way I would do now. I was very happy to walk past them as they striked in that public sector strike a while back.

This just makes kids suffer because their parents didn't use contraception. It isn't the child's fault that they were born into a larger family.

I think the key thing is that a lot of people (mainly Tories) think that the poor should suffer. The child is born poor and as such should be made suffer so as to encourage him/her to try and do better. An odd mindset, but never the less very prevelant.

Ditto for the unions where I work, they now have a political agenda that seems to come above all else.

One of the two main unions where I work negotiated an enhanced rate for staff who were working over Christmas, before it could be put to members for a vote (staff were gagging for some extra Christmas money!) the rival union scuppered the deal because they hadn't been part of the negotiations....WTF?!?!....it didn't seem to occur to them that staff were for once getting a good deal, instead it became about undermining the rival Union.

How management must have laughed, who needs enemies with 'friends' like that eh?!

Unions ruined things for themselves with flying pickets, wildcat strikes, trying to take down a democratically elected government etc etc....when the private sector is stale hearing the unions banging on about 'unfair' pay rises just makes them sound out of touch and distasteful....really once workers rights became established in law the role of the unions had somewhat diminished, nowadays at my place the only people who seem to need them are ones constantly on the receiving end of complaints and who want union representation like its some kind of shield of invincibility for crap employees.

What's really scary about reading some of the nasty, bike-filled rants from the right-wing hard-of-thinking on here, is that their hateful opinions probably most closely resemble the attitudes of our present lords and masters. Especially the truly loathsome, arrogant and odious little turd that is IDS

My union does a superb job of defending my working conditions especially with the little things that are not headline grabbers. Very few actually appreciate this though.

I was very happy to walk past them as they striked in that public sector strike a while back.

Well done you, hope you feel proud of yourself.

Got to agree with most of what deviant says. In the real world away from internet forums and intellectual circles, many of your average Joe's views are truly unpleasant and regressive to say the least. Politicians in conjunction with the media feed and take full advantage of the in-fighting they orchestrate, unfortunately they know theres a never ending supply of small minded selfish plebs, that will help facilitate their agenda.

3 generations that have never worked, isnt news to me, my ex came from such a family and there were a few in the street who were all the same.

its not typical but it happens and there is a very easy lifestyle going on between the mums who are hanging out with their mums and their kids.
its a community that keeps itself to itself, but its a shame that benefits can afford such a comfortable lifestyle.

my ex was determined to break out of it.

Sancho - Member

my ex was determined to break out of it.

And did she? Because you know, if she did that'd mean her generation doesn't qualify so her parents, grandparents and greatgrandparents and all of their siblings etc would have had to have never worked, going back probably as far as ww2 and the beverige report. Which frankly would be a greater achievement than getting a job.

Best tell the researchers the details as they failed to find any and luckily you found a lot and all in one street.

It's worth noting that the same papers, and it's readers, who so despair at teenage mums, also work themselves into a self-righteous frenzy of right-wing indignation at the idea of kids being given proper sex education. Without seeing the inherent contradictions involved in this.

They're a bright bunch!

To all of you who think the current "leadership" and Blair and Thatcher ever had or have your interests at heart - enjoy the following -
Working until your 70 something
Having **** all pensions state or other wise
Paying for healthcare (opticians dentists NHS is next)
Watching your kids work for mimimum wage on a zero hours contract
Watching your kids pay crazy rents to the "leaders"
Watching the businesses you work for not paying their corporation tax
Watch your indirect taxation rise every year for the rest of your life
Crack on people - one day the light will dawn (probably when you are wondering how to pay for a new knee at 72 years old so you can get back to work)

The system is designed to profit the rich regardless of the impact on the poor and frankly if you think you are rich as you earn £50k a year think again you are actually piss poor. The unions for a little while got some control of the well being of its members then Thatcher got it back and the rest they say is New Labour history.

The alternative of paying more tax, paying more tax again on my parents semi in the South East when they die, throwing money at welfare because it's somehow 'evil' or cruel to expect people to work is equally as unappealing to me.

Part of the reason we're in this mess is because we're living too long and not having enough children. We've become an upside down pyramid and western financial models only work as pyramid schemes if there is a larger layer joining at the bottom each generation....that isn't happening so the current model becomes unsustainable.

Thankfully I'll be long dead when the sh@t truly hits the fan.

throwing money at welfare because it's somehow 'evil' or cruel to expect people to work is equally as unappealing to me.

No one has said this but no govt has made a commitment to rid of us of the scourge of unemployment

Blaming/demonising the victims of this economic policy is pointless as it is politicians/all of us who have decided unemployment is a price worth paying

You're a proper little ray of sunshine today, aren't you deviant? 😀

Well done you, hope you feel proud of yourself.

Yes I was proud to go to work and do what was expected of me. I knew I had a good job and pay increases in line with every one else in the country, plus a better pension than most too. I didn't ask for a strike for not being paid to cover their jobs for the day either. 😉