The church and homosexuality

So – no objective basis for ethical decision making at all then? Just some vague platitudes about “it’s nice to be nice”, which sounds very like vestigal social conditioning from historic civil religion, keeping your competitive urges in check 😆

certain important teachings are found in all religions

I don’t think many people would disagree with that.

But there are also fairly important teachings to be found in philosophy, in the natural world, in literature, in mythology, in science, and in CBeebies.

A spectacular misrepresentation of most religions there JY

A spectacular re writing of history required there and one huge set of rose tinted glasses

But one should not confuse actions that people “try” to justify on religious grounds with the core concepts of most of the world’s religions.

you should not confuse what they actually do with what you think they should do – the ebelivers may be ain a better position to speak for their diety of choice than you or I.

So prominent is the teaching of universal love among all religions that it could be viewed as a goal common to them all.

The golden rule is hardly the preserve of the religious and iot seems reasonable to judge them on whether they actually stick to it rather than whether they say
La is not a drugs cheat as he has denied it so lets overlook what he actually did

You could equally have used Lex talionis |* to highlight your point about how they treat those how wrong them – strange that you chose not to 😉

* an eye for an eye a tooth for tooth – nopt for you THM I know you know what it means

The fundamental principle of Christianity is the tolerance of all others, forgiveness, and promotion of being a generally decent person

Remind me what the first 4 of the ten commandments are and which is the greatest? WOrship only me or else basically

It is part of the teaching but you need to ignore all the bits you dont like to say it is the only message- [ no offence] like you do when they tell you what the scriptures says about gays and what you should do.

the churches are big business players, with huge wealth, there is a lot of double standards at play, they are given credence for frankly doing what ??
Supporting the state in time of crisis, giving so called ‘moral’ guidance and help keep things in order, their part in the ‘play’.

I am a practicing Catholic.. follow the last 7 commandments.. think there may be a God.. do not even believe in trans-substantiation

I think you might need to practise some more 😉

So – no objective basis for ethical decision making at all then? Just some vague platitudes about “it’s nice to be nice”, which sounds very like vestigal social conditioning from historic civil religion, keeping your competitive urges in check

By “objective basis” you mean “I should do X so that I’ll be rewarded with Y and not punished with Z”?

No. I think it is quite possible for someone to be good and do nice things purely because they like doing nice things.

“Do unto others” is a pretty good principle to live by and doesn’t require religious reward or punishment to make it so.

The Old Testament enjoins: “thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself”(Lev. 19:18)

Where neighbour is defined as your own tribe.

There’s also some stuff about stoning your daughter to death if she doesn’t marry her rapist. And drowning animals.

Surprise surprise, another STW religion debate, always go the same way as the politics ones (Police commisoners aside) the same people taking the same view points, don’t get me wrong it’s your time and you can do as you please, but where does your motivation come from? (genuine question) you know how it’s going to pan out by now surely.

Donk – I am sure threads on certain religions/races would get closed down pretty quickly. Perhaps STW towers condones anti CoE/Catholic posts?

perhaps we are back to binners explodey types? some religions take a hardline on anyone dissing them, catholic and CoE are a bit soft. Personally I think you should be able to challenge/call out/berate any religion when they deserve it

I think you might need to practise so more

I think you might be right; I’ve been remembering my RE GCSE lessons, and I’m now not even sure about the 4th commandment. The other 6 are all good to go though!

Maybe I should just join a nice book club or coffe group instead! 😀

dont forget the strict rules on shellfish or marrying your brothers wife or abput how long your hair should be [ rules for men and women]

These shall ye eat of all that are in the waters: whatsoever hath fins and scales in the waters, in the seas, and in the rivers, them shall ye eat. And all that have not fins and scales in the seas, and in the rivers, of all that move in the waters, and of any living thing which is in the waters, they shall be an abomination unto you: They shall be even an abomination unto you; ye shall not eat of their flesh, but ye shall have their carcases in abomination. Whatsoever hath no fins nor scales in the waters, that shall be an abomination unto you.

Leviticus 19:27 reads “You shall not round off the side-growth of your heads nor harm the edges of your beard.”

Genesis 38:9-10: “Onan knew that the offspring would not be his; so when he went in to his brother’s wife, he wasted his seed on the ground in order not to give offspring to his brother. But what he did was displeasing in the sight of the Lord; so He took his life also.”

Aye what a nice god that is the very definition of tolerance

Deuteronomy 23:1 reads (this is the God’s Word translation, which spells it out better), “A man whose testicles are crushed or whose penis is cut off may never join the assembly of the Lord.”

Oh, and the next verse says that if you’re a bastard, the child of a bastard… or even have a great-great-great-great-great-great-great-grandchild of a bastard, you can’t come to church or synagogue either. Deuteronomy 23:2 reads, “No one of illegitimate birth shall enter the assembly of the Lord; none of his descendants, even to the tenth generation, shall enter the assembly of the Lord.”

though of course they are not being judgemental when they say any of this

D0NK – Member
Personally I think you should be able to challenge/call out/berate any religion when they deserve it

I agree but there are ways of doing it which are still respectful to others’ views. I am not defending the views of any particular religions just pointing out the lack of consistency that is exhibited and seemingly condoned on STW.

I agree but there are ways of doing it which are still respectful to others’ views. I am not defending the views of any particular religions just pointing out the lack of consistency that is exhibited and seemingly condoned on STW.

Examples?

Awwww are the poor little put upon christians being picked on again?

You want to know why Christianity gets the most criticism in the UK? It’s because

1. It’s far and away the biggest religion.
2. It occupies a hugely priviliged position in our society.

The vast majority of criticism is perfectly valid criticism of either christian beliefs of attacks on the special treatment chritianity gets.

You’re not some oppressed minority, and when you try to make it sound like you are, you come across like a white, middle class man complaining about being discriminated against on the grounds of his race, gender and class.

Mike – you are a frequent enough forum visiter. You really need to ask – just compare the pages on these sorts of threads with others. Its pretty obvious. Any way – small point. No need to add to endless religions pages – as stated above, they all go the same way. Perhaps, they should be collected under Swindon threads?

gonefishin – Member
Awwww are the poor little put upon christians being picked on again?

A far better one-line summary of my point that I could have achieved. Thanks!

So, logical fallacies and missing the point. You’re not very good at this debating thing are you?

agree but there are ways of doing it which are still respectful to others’ views

Would you like to speak out on the churches campaigning against gays/same sex marriage – wouldl you like some quotes from high ranking church dudes? demonstrating tolerance? Do we still need to respect them and tolerate it – discrimination is after all illegal in this country on grounds of sexuality.
They want one way tolerance of thier own special intolerance because they have a book.

Cardinal O’Brien described gay marriage as a “grotesque subversion of a universally accepted human right”.

compare the pages on these sorts of threads with others. Its pretty obvious

We know what your view is I think he asked you to prove it with actual evidence rather than restate it.

Do you really think the Church is tolerant?

Mike – you are a frequent enough forum visiter. You really need to ask – just compare the pages on these sorts of threads with others.

Any thread that hits multiple pages before I firs read it, I tend to avoid.

I suspect that other threads veer away from criticism of the religion into criticism of the race? Probably because most posters have been born and raised in the christian tradition and so know very little about islam. I know the jewish/christian fairy tales, but have no idea about islamic ones, really. So, I’d take part in a thread criticising the role of the church in this country, but not generally in anything about islam.

Cardinal O’Brien described gay marriage as a “grotesque subversion of a universally accepted human right”.

is he the scottish dude who threw his toys and started refusing to answer the hotline from scottish secretary? which begs the question WTF does he have a hotline* in the first place?

*it may not be called the hotline but pretty sure I read there’s a special relationship thing going on.

edit oh yeah direct communication

Can any of the Xtians on here explain why God doesn’t like gayers? I mean is he really that bothered?

All religions served a role in their respective states, that role has been supplanted by other forms of control/ideology , in some more advanced societies religion has withered to become almost inconsequential, in some other parts it plays a huge role in oppression.
Science will eventually nail the beast…

methinks he doth protest too much. 😉

special relationship

Are you saying they were attracted to each other but resisted because it was a sin?

Yes that one

emsz it’s not god *whispers* he doesn’t exist. Its the heads of the religions, if you’re having gay sex you’re not procreating and swelling the flock. Likewise abusing yourself or sex just for fun.

they don’t like wasted seed…..

Donk , as you seem like an expert on this, what about a set of breeders doing it up the wrong us….is this ok?

teamhurtmore….
“there are ways of doing it which are still respectful to others’ views”

Spoinnnngggggggggg!

You might not realise this. But when you demand “respect” for your religious views, people (maybe just me 🙂 see it as shorthand for this;

“I have no rational basis or evidence for my views. However, I demand that for the purposes of this discussion you ignore that and confine yourself to polite disagreement.
This works better, as avoiding any requirment for of “facts” and “evidence” makes it appear that all of our opinions are equally valid and we can all sit around and nod knowingly at eachother.

This will allow my beliefs to survive until, hopefully in time, there may be a religious revival, that will lead to your minority views becoming legally flammible once more, and we can dispense with all the respectful discussion and get back to the good old days.”

(PS I’m not suggesting that _you_ would really burn people to death. Just that people who share your particular beliefs have in the past.)

I have views (on morality and humanity and equality) which I hold dearly, but I will never feel the need to demand the kind of “respect” that hides them from discussion and exposure.

I don’t need to.

“We must respect the other fellow’s religion, but only in the sense and to the extent that we respect his theory that his wife is beautiful and his children smart.
H. L. Mencken”

Can any of the Xtians on here explain why God doesn’t like gayers? I mean is he really that bothered?

God created man in his own image, so I’m guessing he is the last of the great deniers.

Yeah, but in the bible, dies he actually say why? Apart from you know, stealing your make up, having better eyebrows and shit taste in music?

Thats what gets me about the catholic churchs stance on condoms.
Millions will die from aids, but not using them is more important 😯

repressed? 😀

I can just imagine if the JS thread was linked to other religions (Judaism, Islam) or races, there would be all sorts of accusations flying about re discrimination. But open season on other religions it seems.

I will happily denigrate Islam and the way it is taught in this country if you want.
Unlike the majority of middle class Guardian reading hand wringers that frequent this forum, I’ve been to mosque many times so my dislike is borne from reality and fact, not Daily Wail hysteria (I have never seen a muslamic ray gun).

I think a world without religion would be a pretty soulless place to live.

That’s quite a clever little joke that. Well done 🙂

repressed?

So far into the closet, he’s in Narnia.

(No idea where I stole that from)

Emsz,
I can remember having a special religion lesson in 6th Form (the Opus Dei Headmaster came in especially to deliver the lesson).

He allowed everyone to ask a question via a ballot slip, and he answered them all quite candidly in random order. He basically confirmed Donk’s sentiment above, in that God doesn’t like gayers because there was no chance for procreation.

He did say that BJs and bum fun with consenting members of the opposite sex was a bit strange, but okay, so long as the seed was finally spilled in the right place.

Don’t know how i survived my schooling. Luckily, all but one of the class agreed that the man was a fundamentalist loon.

I personally think God is not a homosceptic and would not have a problem with lady gayers or bumders. They are after all generally nice people, quite creative and all very well dressed (Elton John aside).

(No idea where I stole that from)

Its what Lewis Carroll wanted to say.

I thought scientology was the religion for people in the closet?

I personally think God is not a homosceptic and would not have a problem with lady gayers or bumders. They are after all generally nice people, quite creative and all very well dressed (Elton John aside).

Coffee-out-of-nose-time.

Not been called a bumder before. I think I’ll have to appropriate that. 😀

Bumder!… Not mine I’m afraid.
Taken from the Inbetweeners.

Homosceptic = Alan Partridge, too.

Nothing original from me I’m afraid!

Hi Adam *waves excitedly*

My friend graham isn’t ( well dressed) he’s got military cap( backwards) covering up really bad self harm undercut, blue checked scarf, glittery shirt, leggings, mismatched leg warmers. Looks like he was mugged by a wardrobe.

He says he doesnt like god either, so he’s fine.

I quite like lady gayer 😆

Yeah. We got that bit 🙂