Thatcher's died according to BBC

if you really are interested in kinnock– why do you not do some ‘research’ –you’ll find plenty of views on his political gymnastics ….

has this not run it’s course yet?

not a fan of the closed shop but it is true that they benefit from the unions without paying – free loading a very thatcherite lifestyle choice apparently 😉

Not a fan of non secret ballots though they seem to work well in parliament

I’m afraid I’d like to vote on issues that concern me without being beaten up, having my family attacked or my car smashed up because I don’t vote the way the union tells me, Rudeboy.

A monopoly supply of labour is no better than a monopoly supplier of bread. There’s a place for a thick sandwich in a plastic bag and a place for Paul’s. A monopoly supply of bread would result in Paul’s prices for plastic-bag bread.

don’t think we need lessons in democracy from right wing dictators– they do not apply the same in their own stinking party…

any chance you could explain the ctorian comment please

…and would that be anything to do with management of the business by any chance?

Well, yeah – but I interpreted the question to be about factory-level management of labour rather than global management/design etc.

edukator–unless you were a stooge,those things would not have happened –were you an MI5 plant– they were rife in that place !

that stuff about bread and plastic bags — are you feeding ducks or something ?

And the loony left is still alive on STW

the closed shop is designed so that all those who benefit from hard won gains also contribute –thats as it should be–all those selfish types who dont want to pay a small union sub but never refuse the pay rises and holidays– i’m all for open democracy–but it must be that!

If the unions were doing such a good job of looking after employee interests I think most people would happily contribute their dues. It’s attitudes like yours Rudebwoy that have fractured our society, destroyed industries and communities. The irony is that many of the people holding these attitudes blame Thatcher for much of what they caused.

Interesting personal comment, my wife may agree but can you elucidate in this instance please?

Neil Kinnock was a reasonably successful politician, was he not?

So at the very least, he cannot therefore be a “a decent and honourable man”.

rudebwoy,

You seem to have read a lot and be quite knowledgeable but you have not actually been there. To be so dismissive of Edukator is wrong.

Well, yeah – but I interpreted the question to be about factory-level management of labour rather than global management/design etc.

Not having a pop kona, just pointing out that bad mangement extends to producing shite product, which British Leyland were definately guilty of. Interstingly, programes such as Undercover Boss and their ilk are rarely incorrect in their outcomes if my experience is anything to go by. Generally there is an assumption that the prols are stupid, and that of they have a beef then its obviously bollocks. The reality is much nearer to the precise opposite.

Simple example: I got the hump once about the floors not being kept clear. Staff suggestion book, (that I’d spent some time nurturing, to get past the usual opening shots), came back with we haven’t got sufficent brooms. When I checked up on it sure enough, 4 to keep 60,000 sq feet clean. Not their fault, and especially not their fault that a culture had hitherto existed whereby they did not feel able to raise this as an issue.

if you really are interested in Kinnock… I’m not

It was more Scargill’s role in the miners strike and why Kinnock felt such animosity towards him. …

If RobD is right up there… and that’s the only reason so far put foward to the debate on here… guess Scargill caused a lot more pain than there may have been otherwise ??

Scargill, not fit to wipe Gormley’s boot.

Re product- Doubt a 70s Austin Maxi was any worse design the equivalent Datsun. Re shop floor- made a career out of empowering the doers so thats not my point either.

What I was saying and still don’t see any reason not to believe is that the labour disputes of the 70s and 80s and the subsequent changes to the legislature were part of a journey with out which Sunderland Nissan would not be possible.

TurnerGuy – Member

Interesting personal comment, my wife may agree but can you elucidate in this instance please?

Neil Kinnock was a reasonably successful politician, was he not?

So at the very least, he cannot therefore be a “a decent and honourable man”.

😆 you are, of course correct! Cap doffed. However, I had assumed we were looking at the pool of politicians available and comparing them.

Finally, an explanation for the younger generation;

What I was saying and still don’t see any reason not to believe is that the labour disputes of the 70s and 80s and the subsequent changes to the legislature were part of a journey with out which Sunderland Nissan would not be possible.

..and what I’m saying which you are clearly not going to listen to is that for good pragmatic reasons I disagree with you. Simplified right down my view is no bad crews, just bad captains. Thatchers view, and apparently yours, which to be honest I do find very weird is all good captains just bad crews.

I guess at the end of the day it comes down to whether you think a manager (and that word is being used in the largest context) can influence outcomes. Personally, I do.

the closed shop is designed so that all those who benefit from hard won gains also contribute –thats as it should be

unions – where i live, in the 80’s there was massive unemployment. there was a huge drive by the local development agency and they managed to get a business to locate in a specially designated technology park. so big was this that around 90% of the park would be used by this one factory – ford it was, making some car electrical gubbins. ford were ok with unions but weren’t prepared to tolerate a closed shop. they also wanted to deal with one union and chose the less militant eeptu (iirc). however, another union wanted the business and said that if they didn’t get it, they would call a strike in all ford’s plants.
result – the factory was built in spain, and i learned the valuable lesson that some unions would rather see a man out of work than in work paying their protection racket union fees to someone else.

at some unions would rather see a man out of work than in work

There is of course an alternative view of that.

I am just an old nostalgic but can you imagine how out of shape this thread would have got if Fred, TJ and their ilk were still about 😆

bikebuoy is trying his best on the recent pages but its just not the same.

“Ding Dong the witch is dead” has reached number 9 in the iTunes charts.

Nice to see people making the effort to learn the words in advance of the funeral.

Thatcher was big on Victorian values, Junkyard. She was keen on being self-reliant but also ready to help thy neigbour. It’s a theme that came up in many speeches so I thought you’d find some quotes with Google. The Victorian charity ethic and private financing of public services were part of a theme which revolved around responsibility going with wealth. She said something about we only remember the good Samaritan because he had money to help with, not just good intentions. She was not in favour of a selfish society as you suggest but one in which everybody works hard for both personal gain and the common good. Pity she couldn’t convince the greedy fat cats she surrounded herself with of that.

there’s quite an interesting overview of the history leading up to the miners strike in this obituary for one of the NUM’s last leaders before Scargill.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/obituaries/politics-obituaries/5417730/Lawrence-Daly.html

It describes the unrest that was prevalent throughout the 1970’s and really provides a good insight into why the government of the day decided to stockpile coal and face down the unions.

Probably the best quote in the obituary:

….At the NUM’s 1968 conference he criticised “the higher echelons of our movement who do not live by the same ethical Socialism that they preach. Our biggest obstacle is not so much the acquisitive Tory as the acquisitive Socialist.”

robdixon you should not be allowed to post that. It could be Tory-propoganda and must never have happened. The Comrades will dispute your version of history and like the great leaders of Communism would seek to rewrite history 😉

It’s attitudes like yours Rudebwoy that have fractured our society, destroyed industries and communities. The irony is that many of the people holding these attitudes blame Thatcher for much of what they caused.

😆 I didn’t realise these people were in government at the same time as thatcher telling her what to do.

Pity she couldn’t convince the greedy fat cats she surrounded herself with of that.

Another one of her many faults.

meanwhile after 34 years of monetary policies where are we heading–north sea oil n gas pretty much spunked off, no access to coal, a few windmills and an ailing ageing nuclear sector– imported gas form russia and leccy from those prudent french people who planned ahead.

Most heavy industry now a museum , plenty of ‘service’ jobs–and those wonderful players of financial instruments, but the truth is its the last waltz at the Ritz time…..

I’m just musing on this and will put this down before this thread dies. On a personal level, she really separated me from politics. Before her, I vaguely recall a loose respect for most politicians and the view that they were generally decent people trying their best. She came along and my loathing of her was total.

When Blair popped up after the creepy Major, I thought he was almost the second coming as he represented a total break from her. I don’t think I was alone if we’re honest. I was prepared to completely ignore the signs and loudly cheered him on regardless, as the nay-sayers were right-wing nutters who supported her, surely? Then Iraq and the scales fell away. Then he fell into the very bad camp in my head, the sudden-ness of it being a total shock.

So her legacy for me now is that I am cynical and utterly disrespectful to all politicians. I now think they’re all crooks on the make (cash for questions? expenses?) and again suspect many feel similarly. Not very healthy and entirely negative. I believe in exercising my vote, but have no idea which set of crooks will get it at the next election.

Sorry to ramble but been meaning to say that for a long time.

before this thread dies

it can’t die yet – only 170 posts to go…

Edukator – Member

Thatcher was big on Victorian values, Junkyard. She was keen on being self-reliant but also ready to help thy neigbour. It’s a theme that came up in many speeches so I thought you’d find some quotes with Google. The Victorian charity ethic and private financing of public services were part of a theme which revolved around responsibility going with wealth. She said something about we only remember the good Samaritan because he had money to help with, not just good intentions.

Does anyone really still believe this crock?
The ‘trickle down economy’ is a myth propogated by the right that gets trotted out whenever the poor are about to be screwed over in favour of the rich again.
It doesn’t happen. It never has.
When the rich get richer they keep it. Usually in a tax haven.
It benefits no one but themselves.

She preached philanthropy but every single policy encouraged self interest over helping others.

She was re-elected because she legitimised greed and selfishness.

CBA going through the whole thread but seeing as I posted a link to Morrissey’s musings on the Margaret Thatcher’s passing about ten pages back I feel it only fair ,by way of balance, to post Gerri Halliwell’s Twitter comments
“Thinking of our 1st Lady of girl power, Margaret Thatcher, a grocer’s daughter who taught me anything is possible…x
Another thing I can’t forgive The Iron Lady for 🙂

The old hag’s demise has been dredging up some memories, among them reading this book…

http://www.abebooks.co.uk/9780861047130/Thatchers-Britain-Guide-Ruins-Keys-0861047133/plp

And that was only three years worth… Now, after a generation of Thatcher and her children, things are far worse than we could’ve ever imagined back then.

I’m sure The Iron Lady would be proud.

Rust in Peace?

If the unions were doing such a good job of looking after employee interests I think most people would happily contribute their dues.

Yes your right if there is one thing thatcher/capitlaism has taught us then it is that people really want to give their all when they can get something for free – its why the rich never do tax avoidance and people would not break the speed limit if there was no police Hilariously naive [ remember i dont support the closed shop]

It’s attitudes like yours Rudebwoy that have fractured our society, destroyed industries and communities.

and you want to call him a loony – what maggie brought communities together – is this really your claim – TBH I dont beleive anyone actually thinks that

ford were ok with unions but weren’t prepared to tolerate a closed shop. they also wanted to deal with one union and chose the less militant eeptu

eh they wanted to deal with only one union but they did not want a closed shop – how exactly does that work then? why would you join a union that management wont speak to or recognise?
Seems that both management and the unions took a hardline stance in your example tbh to the detriment of the UK workers. Not sure why you single out just the unions as intransient there tbh, neither side come out of that [ if true ] as good
Ps it was not spain as they only have one factory open since 1976- Valencia

Thatcher was big on Victorian values, Junkyard. She was keen on being self-reliant but also ready to help thy neigbour. It’s a theme that came up in many speeches so I thought you’d find some quotes with Google.

Yes I know what she said about it thanks I wonder WTF your point was as you mentioned it to me- What you want me to say I think victorian values and trickle down economics lead to a dickensian world and itis not someting i would wish on anyone? Is this a surprise ?

She was not in favour of a selfish society as you suggest but one in which everybody works hard for both personal gain and the common good.

Yes and GO really believes we are all in it together

Pity she couldn’t convince the greedy fat cats she surrounded herself with of that.

Yes of course maggie tried to end greed and preach responsibility to the poor and needy – they were her core values iirc considering how successful she was in everything else she did any suggestions as to how she failed on this one given she tried so hard

Fine I will add it to the list of things she failed to do

When the rich get richer they keep it. Usually in a tax haven.
It benefits no one but themselves.

They don’t spent it ever, then? Genuinely curious here, I’m not a tory apologist.

Some people on here are sick. Why not just get on with your lifes instead of taking the piss out of an old woman who was very ill?

Given that they were already rich, they probably already spent enough….there’s only so much you can spend! Would them becoming more rich lead to greater spending-doubtful in my view.

thatcher dead.that’s the first i’ve heard of it from the bbc 😉