steel uk hardtails…whos got what?

Everybody keeps on about the high prices…has anyone considered the 2nd hand market?

Some amazing bargains to be had! Some bikes have hardly been used and most decent HT’s sell for circa £1k with a good build. I know you don’t get warranty but how often does a decent HT go wrong useless you do something really silly?

I’d go for a Stanton but I’m biased! 😉

It’s still fun, lithe and comfy many miles and years in. By the bikes of time, it’s very long, allowing long seat post for flex.

@Bregante – how do you find the reach on the large Solaris? I’m 6′ 1″ and normally ride an XL Bird Aeris with a ETT of 660 + 35mm stem (reach is 486mm). Thinking of getting a Solaris but want to run it with a 40-50mm stem.

I have a 2016 Bird Zero AM. I’m enjoying it at the moment, great fun

jruk – perfect for me with a 70mm stem although I haven’t got ridiculously long arms.

Ragley piglet 2 here. Currently a turbo trainer pig due to the snow

It’s great fun on man made trails, berms, jumps pumptrack , like a bmx really, but it’s bloody harsh on rocky stuff. Still, glad I have it in the ‘quiver’

@jruk: on my mk1 Solaris at 6′ I’m running a 65mm stem with a layback pin. This is fine on 2-3 hour blasts but a bit short for long days. Iirc the difference between M and L is 17mm so I reckon you’d struggle sub 60mm stem.

My Sherpa is a large (8 or 9mm shorter than the mk2 Solaris) and at 50mm stem I find it just a bit short (with an inline pin). I should’ve gone 60mm stem…

@Bregante – thanks (waves with gibbon arms). After 9 months of a 35mm stem I don’t really want to go back to anything longer than 50mm really.

Mk2 Stanton switchback with 130mm Pikes, very happy with it. I had a Mk1 before that which was also great but it was a bit short and tyre clearance wasn’t great, both of which are improved in the second version.

Another Ragley Bigwig here. Running 140 fox 34. I really like it, it just feels ‘right’. Dont think I will be getting rid of it any time soon.

Ragley latest RRP’s you’re aving a giraffe mate Stanton same. Too close to full sus frames in sales, way above aluminium frames with similar geometry that are lighter and haven’t seen anywhere near the same price hikes over the same period.

Talking to Dan, they’ve struggled a bit with the pound falling in value because they pay for stuff in dollars. Not only that but the second gen frames have new stuff that adds cost (the new yoke, internal routing). At least they’re using full branded steel tubing unlike other stuff that is a similar price but basic 4130 steel. Stanton are shifting a lot of frames, so people must be happy with the price.

I had a BFe but didn’t get on with it; it was bloody harsh and felt a bit lumpen to ride.

The Switchback is a great bike but don’t tule out the new Slackline; it’s a brilliant trail bike that climbs better and is a bit more comfy. The 853 frame set is really nice to ride.

I put up a similar thread a few months ago and was looking at the Morf or bfe. To throw a spanner in the works someone mentioned the new orange p7 which I knew nothing about. Wrote down all the dimensions of these bikes, morf, bfe, p7, privee shan and pace 127.
Read reviews on all bikes , and I ended up getting a p7 frame. Nearly got a morf but wanted to run 140mm forks the same as my full suss so I can swap and change forks over if need be.
2 rides in on the p7 and it’s amazing,manly riding off piste stuff, from steep rooty trails to fast single track and it rips it up. Riding full sussers for 6 years I wasn’t sure if getting a steel hardtail would be for me, but at least over the winter months my transition scout will be getting some much needed tlc.

Yes nobody talks much about the new P7, not sure why it’s a brilliant no nonsense steel hardtail that they made the right size for a change. The only grumble I have applies to just about every other on trend geometry bike, they make it nice and long but dont bother steepening the seat angle accordingly. This means you are in the perfect position for descending but stretched right out on the climbs which is uncomfortable for me. Otherwise can’t fault the P7.

Yeah it’s definitely got a long top tube. I put on a 30mm stem and the saddle pulled forward and found it climbs great on steep climbs compared to my scout that was wanting to wheely up climbs !!

Niner The best steel frame i have ever ridden Reynolds 853.

Stanton are shifting a lot of frames, so people must be happy with the price.

The asking price was the only reason I bought something else.

However I am more than happy with the frame I ended up with.

The asking price was the only reason I bought something else.

Same here, the geometry of the 18″ long looks ideal for me, but £600 for a boggo frame from taiwan is taking the piss. Yes, costs have gone up, but not by that much (material costs are minute – sub £100 for the tubeset). Don’t get me started on the pricing model of their ti bikes either.

In the end, I went off hunting for something else, and found the new Dartmoor Hornet which is longer and lower (I like to be able to really slam my saddle), plus well under half the price.

esselgruntfuttock – Member

Are there any UK companies who actually build the frames in the UK, apart from them wot make filing cabinets. Or is it limited to custom builders?

I take that as a ‘no’ then. [/quote]

There would be little point making anything other than custom in the UK, we don’t have the production lines to mass produce.

Yes nobody talks much about the new P7, not sure why it’s a brilliant no nonsense steel hardtail that they made the right size for a change. The only grumble I have applies to just about every other on trend geometry bike, they make it nice and long but dont bother steepening the seat angle accordingly. This means you are in the perfect position for descending but stretched right out on the climbs which is uncomfortable for me. Otherwise can’t fault the P7.

Do you use a dropper post? Seat angles went steep for a year or too, then slackened off a couple of degree again as an inline dropper is worth almost 2deg of seat angle when compared to a normal 25mm layback post.

Same here, the geometry of the 18″ long looks ideal for me, but £600 for a boggo frame from taiwan is taking the piss. Yes, costs have gone up, but not by that much (material costs are minute – sub £100 for the tubeset). Don’t get me started on the pricing model of their ti bikes either.

Considering that I remember my DMR Switchback being £275 in 2004, and I think a Soul was £399? Inflation alone makes that £570 or so. And that’s just general inflation, bike parts have gone up massively (wages in Taiwan, exchange rates, etc).

Orange P7; my fifth version of the P7.

It’s smashing, found in the sales at a bargin price.

In the end, I went off hunting for something else, and found the new Dartmoor Hornet which is longer and lower (I like to be able to really slam my saddle), plus well under half the price.

but not steel

I’ve got a Kona Honzo, its not British but then none of the others up there are either.

Its steel but had no “steel is real” feel at all so I might as well be riding Alu.

The Dartmoor range looks interesting, they’d be on my next bike shortlist.

I picked up a second hand 456 a while back and it’s bloody brilliant. If you want cheap I don’t think you can get much better (mine was £75 quid for the frame!).

but not steel

true – the older ones (up to 2016) are steel as far as I know, the new ones are alu as they use the front triangle off their DH bike.

Its weird that aluminium used to be considered an upgrade from steel (due to the weight benefit, and I guess the increased cost in purchasing the metal and additional difficulty welding it), however clever marketing has now allowed similar steel bikes to be priced higher. Ironically, the actual material makes naff all difference, the flex is all due to the tube profiles generally being narrower and thus more flexible – but I would imagine that the thicker seat tubes necessitated by dropper posts have probably eliminated some of that (one manufacturer I saw was running a shimmed 27.2 seatpost in a much wider tube to allow the comfort of all along with dropper compatibility – not a bad idea imo)

MK3 Cotic Soul, 26″ here as well. Love it, but don’t ride it often enough.

I’d say a 29er is the way to go in the Lakes on a hardtail to help smooth out the rock gardens

Another P7 here – crazily fun bike, I absolutely love it. For the last 8 months I’ve used it for everything Calderdale offers, from steep and techy off-piste stuff through to a couple of epic 40-milers. Most of my riding is 20-30 milers in the Pennines. It’s been ridden an average of 2 or 3 times per week, in all weathers. Medium size (I’m 5′ 10″), running 140mm Pikes. Weighs around 29.5lb with flat pedals, Stealth dropper and proper Maxxis tyres. Geometry is totally spot on for my needs.

2012 Prince Albert classic. Paid £295 as a it was one of the pre order 853 jobbies. Built up 1×10
Straight steerer- 140 revs with qr are probably a bit flexy compared to modern forks
27.2 post- xfusion hilo works fine with a modded left hand shifter. Could perhaps do with an extra inch of drop though.
135×10 back end. How very old school.
It’s a great bike and serves me well around the peaks and trail centres, but I take the fs for bigger stuff
If I was buying a new bike now I’d probably get a solaris

Same here, the geometry of the 18″ long looks ideal for me, but £600 for a boggo frame from taiwan is taking the piss. Yes, costs have gone up, but not by that much (material costs are minute – sub £100 for the tubeset). Don’t get me started on the pricing model of their ti bikes either.

In the end, I went off hunting for something else, and found the new Dartmoor Hornet which is longer and lower (I like to be able to really slam my saddle), plus well under half the price.

It’s not really a bogo frame though is it? It’s made from good quality, branded steel unlike others. The trailstar is only £100 cheaper, uglier and uses basic 4130. That makes a full Reynolds bike look OK value.

The Twaiwan this doesn’t really matter because they make some awesome stuff. Remember when the MTB industry was all about US made stuff? Yet Intense are famous for jobbing out wonky frames.

Ti has always been pricey and they’re in the same ballpark as a Kingdom. Ride well too.

i’m a bit late to this party, but my Genesis High Latitude continues to impress me.

sturdy enough, not too heavy, a bit of flex where it matters, geometry that seems a decent compromise between ‘sensible’ and ‘fashionable’…

Same here, the geometry of the 18″ long looks ideal for me, but £600 for a boggo frame from taiwan is taking the piss. Yes, costs have gone up, but not by that much (material costs are minute – sub £100 for the tubeset). Don’t get me started on the pricing model of their ti bikes either.

Following on from the above, it’s full spec Reynolds tubing which does add a reasonable cost. However, you also know what you’re getting – dodgy plain gauge hi-ten it ain’t. He could probably save a few quid by spec’ing plain gauge 4130 chain and seat stays, but then you wouldn’t have a complete Reynolds frame, which is something some people want and will pay for.

You’re also not factoring in paint, decals and shipping, not to mention labour (China wages have gone up after western demands for better conditions – this is why cheap t-shirts are now made in Bangladesh or Cambodia) or initial set-up costs on a small run of frames, which could be significant with non-off-the-peg requirements. Then Dan has his website to run, office to heat and car to fuel. I imagine he also has a warehouse, not to mention taking a wage to cover little things like a personal mortgage or rent and some food. Then he’ll make a profit. This is before we start delving into things like R&D costs.

Finally, he also won’t be buying in the quantity that someone like Specialized will, so frames and components will always be more expensive per unit, and probably quite significantly so. As unlikely as it is, If Spesh made exactly the same frame they may cost less at retail, but if you can drop Mike Sinyard a line and recommend he adds a third set of bottle bosses I’d be very impressed.

It’s not really a bogo frame though is it? It’s made from good quality, branded steel unlike others. The trailstar is only £100 cheaper, uglier and uses basic 4130. That makes a full Reynolds bike look OK value.

The Twaiwan this doesn’t really matter because they make some awesome stuff. Remember when the MTB industry was all about US made stuff? Yet Intense are famous for jobbing out wonky frames.

Ti has always been pricey and they’re in the same ballpark as a Kingdom. Ride well too.

I don’t have any issues with bikes made in the far east – my comment was more that it doesn’t contribute to price in the same way that a frame built in the UK or US does (where labour is a lot more pricey).

Agreed they don’t look terrible value compared to a DMR, but at nearly 4 times the cost of an equivilent on-one (the dee dar), the value proposition looks very poor (likewise for their ti stuff).

if people can justify the cost (and some people obviously can, or they wouldn’t sell any) then fair enough – but I suspect they’re pricing themselves out of a larger market (including myself) of people who just don’t want to spend the extra (given the ‘posh’ tubeset doesn’t affect anything other than weight – the flex is all about the exterior diameter)

Any DMR owners on this thread? The Trailstar looks fun

5lab – I don’t have any issues with bikes made in the far east – my comment was more that it doesn’t contribute to price in the same way that a frame built in the UK or US does (where labour is a lot more pricey).

I seem to remember reading somewhere that a good bike welder in Taiwan will be on $22k. Its not as cheap over there as some seem to think.

Agreed they don’t look terrible value compared to a DMR, but at nearly 4 times the cost of an equivilent on-one (the dee dar), the value proposition looks very poor (likewise for their ti stuff).

I can’t talk about the Dee Dar as I’m not familiar with it, but I believe the Inbred was made from plain-gauge tubing, which is why it’s so bloody heavy. I would imagine (and this is pure speculation) that they were made using off-the-peg tubing and fittings, and made in a far greater volume than Stantons thus bringing the price down per unit, not to mention probably being sold with substantially less mark-up – stack it high sell it cheap, so to speak. Brant did a fantastic job with the number which is why they’re such a liked and well-respected cheap hardtail / hack bike, but they are just that. As it stands they’ve got lots of people into riding bikes, and that’s a good thing in my book.

Still, it is horses for courses. If you want a cheap-as-chips hardtail with decent numbers then On-One have you covered. If you want better material (and it is better – how much better is arguable, but there’s a reason why a Reynolds frame is both substantially lighter and stronger than a high tensile steel frame) and something a little more niche, then you have to pay for it.

Compared to Cotics and other similar level hardtails, I don’t think Stantons are over-priced.

Any DMR owners on this thread? The Trailstar looks fun

Nukeproof Cub Scout | Everything You Need to Know.

🙂

Mark 1 Cotic Solaris for me, think the newer one takes a bigger fork/rubber, but this is just perfect and has been ridden on everything

but I believe the Inbred was made from plain-gauge tubing, which is why it’s so bloody heavy. I would imagine (and this is pure speculation) that they were made using off-the-peg tubing and fittings

I know my 456 was butted because you could see the external butts!

IIRC the tubing was ‘custom’ too, hence the joke that it was called “custom butted DN6” because they could have called it whatever they wanted as like most mid-range frames it’s 4130 spec tubing drawn to whatever butting they ask for, so they used the postcode.

The dropouts did look like they came off a BSO though, but then they don’t need to do much, and could be bent back into shape with molgrips in the event of a crash.

Still, it is horses for courses. If you want a cheap-as-chips hardtail with decent numbers then On-One have you covered. If you want better material (and it is better – how much better is arguable, but there’s a reason why a Reynolds frame is both substantially lighter and stronger than a high tensile steel frame) and something a little more niche, then you have to pay for it.

Reynolds 520 (or 525 in the UK) meets the 4130 spec, and for bike tubing 4130 can have a 520 sticker if you pay reynolds a licence fee.

725 is heat treated 520 (or equivalent to heat treated 4130)

631 and 853 are the equivalent air hardening steels (the latter is the former heat treated)

531 and 753 are Manganese-Moly steels, but can’t be welded so aren’t used anymore except by a few niche builders.

Only BSO’s are made of high-tensile steel.

5’11” with a Medium Bfe 275. was built up with a bunch of spares i had to use as an off-road occasional commuter. s’alright, but i always long for my full suss whenever im riding it. I swear my Process 153 climbs better than the Bfe!

I know my 456 was butted because you could see the external butts!

😆

Fair point!

However, the problem with ‘custom butting’ is it can mean anything (such as external butting – a far easier process to manufacture) which could potentially be nothing at all. I’d also be interested to know the legality behind it, as to what it has to mean or how many tubes it has to apply to. As above, you know what you’re getting with Reynolds, and to use the 853 badge at least three tubes have to be 853.

As we’re talking about the Stanton, I think it’s fair to compare Reynolds 853 and 631 to 4130. Not the article I originally read, but makes similar points: http://www.bretonbikes.com/homepage/cycling-article-blog/82-steel-yourself-a-guide-to-the-most-popular-metal-for-bike-frames

But yes, as pointed out, you will have to pay to use the Reynolds name. However on small batches of bikes it’s probably more cost effective to to this than to develop a custom tubeset. If Stanton go on to conquer the world I’d expect to see a cheaper Slackline made by the hundreds with custom-butted 4130 tubesets and costing under 400 notes, but until that day I’d still say that they represent reasonable value for money.

Untitled by Le Hutch[/url], on Flickr

I’ve got a Stanton Sherpa….generally use it for XC and relatively untechnical wooded singletrack…it excels at both of these

It’s a looker as well!