Scottish independence- where do you stand?

I’d also like to try and be part of a democracy where the government obeys the people, not the other way round like in the UK set up.

Good luck with that one, although I fear whoever you vote for the government always gets in.

GrahamS – Member
I’ve got a confidence in the Scottish people that the no camp don’t have.
That is the kind of rhetoric I really dislike.

The whole “if you vote No then you are a coward, you don’t believe in Scotland or you are not a proper Scot” approach. It is no way to have a debate.That’s not what I’m saying at all, if you want to have that discussion batter in, i’m not stopping you. My view point is that I don’t need to know all the details of an independent Scotland intimately, because I know that it’s a process that has still to take place after the vote happens.

The white paper is basically a starting point, it doesn’t and can’t have all the answers.

In the event of a yes vote, there will be a year and a bit of campaigning and positioning of parties before we go to the polls to elect a new government. Only then can we start to get proper answers to what Scotland will start to look like post independence.

You’re looking for definitive answers that aren’t there and cannot be there imo. But if you want to discuss them, batter in, I made my mind up a long time ago.

FWIW I’d have voted for DevoMax.

That’s why I’m undecided/not sure for the referendum. And I think there’s a grave misunderstanding that the 16 & 17 year olds will be automatically voting ‘Yes’ – not the case from my hearing of things round here anyway.

Westminster – governed from really far away. Holyrood – governed from slightly smaller, slightly less far away (with apologies to father Ted).

mogrim – Member
I’d also like to try and be part of a democracy where the government obeys the people, not the other way round like in the UK set up.
Good luck with that one, although I fear whoever you vote for the government always gets in.

aye here’s the thing though, in scotland we’ve already embraced the like of proportional representation. Westminister has no intention of developing it’s democratic structures. Scotland does, so eventually I reckon scotland will actually change the structures of democracy to become more democratic.

It’s the reason why democracy is broken in this country, democracy needs to develop itself all the time to stay democratic.

Indeed. Wanting to know every detail before independence is like not getting married without knowing what jobs you’ll have in future, where you’re going to live for the rest of your life, and how many kids you’ll have.

The future is uncertain. It’s uncertain if you vote yes, it’s uncertain if you vote no.

The whole “if you vote No then you are a coward, you don’t believe in Scotland or you are not a proper Scot” approach. It is no way to have a debate.

There’s a name for that. 🙂

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

The whole “if you vote No then you are a coward, you don’t believe in Scotland or you are not a proper Scot” approach. It is no way to have a debate.

Is that any worse than saying ‘if you vote yes you’re all going to end up destitute like the greeks’ which seems to be the only argument of the no campaign. You’re right in that the entire campaign will essentially boil down to one of hope/optimism vs fear/negativity. I’m normally a cynic on these things and think people will eventually vote with their pockets, but I think in this case, as long as Salmond doesn’t overdo the William Wallace rhetoric, optimism and hope might win the day.

‘if you vote yes you’re all going to end up destitute like the greeks’

Indeed, Salmond believes Scotland should be more like Ireland and Iceland (Harvard speech). He also claimed HBOS and RBS as Scottish. Is he taking their debts with him? He’s also planning to woo companies like JP Morgan and Morgan Stanley. Is that the type of economy Scotland wants; London-lite?

It’s perfectly feasible that Scotland will be prosperous, but Salmond does not have the answers. Scotland would stand a better chance with a good leader, I hope he doesn’t get elected.

“a good leader”.

He’s not great, as a politician he is pretty adept (all relative, has pulled some corkers), but when I see the opposition in Holyrood at least, I despair.

Scotsman readers comment on the white paper:
“SNP are starting to sound like pushers. ‘Try it, you’ll feel great! What are you scared of? How about I give you some sweeties for the kids. No, not now….only when you see things my way’. ‘ I know everyone else says this is bad for you but my independent advice says they’re all wrong. Go on, try it or you won’t be a true Scot.”

Scotsman readers comment on the white paper:
“SNP are starting to sound like pushers. ‘Try it, you’ll feel great! What are you scared of? How about I give you some sweeties for the kids. No, not now….only when you see things my way’. ‘ I know everyone else says this is bad for you but my independent advice says they’re all wrong. Go on, try it or you won’t be a true Scot.

That kind of sneering politics and commentary is typical.

It’s a shame that’s basically the entire no campaign, sneer as much as you can and offer no alternative.

sneer as much as you can and offer no alternative.

The alternative, for me, is Devo Max.
And since that isn’t being offered, the status quo.

Basically I think we’re stronger standing together (and I’m pro-european for much the same reason).
But that doesn’t mean we can’t self-govern.

Scotland, Scottish, and rather reluctantly voting yes- you could say I’ve been driven to it by the UK rather than being a nationalist.

I’m Scottish, lived in Scotland all my life and will be voting YES.

I was undecided until a few weeks ago but the discussions I’ve seen and heard in the media have persuaded me that we have to give this a go. The arguments against independence have driven me mad. I’ve heard a number of mentions of it being like the end of a relationship where one person wants to leave but the other doesn’t want to let them go. This allegory trivialises the debate, for me this is about Scotland having the ability to govern all aspects of Scottish life, not about problems with a relationship. There is only 1 Tory MP in Scotland but we have to accept being governed by a Tory led coalition, how does that represent us effectively?

In PMQs yesterday, CMD said independence would cost each Scot £1000. That is a price I would happily pay, even if I can’t really afford to, if it meant that we would be governed by people that understood the needs of this country.

As long as Scotland takes their equal share of the trillion pound debt with them I say fine.

I don’t want Scotland to leave but soundbites, promises of ‘we’ll make it better’ ring alot louder than ‘keep it as it is sadly.

I just wish Wales was in this position and not Scotland.

Scottish in Scotland and will be voting no. I’d possibly vote for devo max if it was on the table though.

I’m sure Scotland could survive on its own but we have been linked with the rest fo the UK for so long that I just dont see how it would work in practice.

Also voting on the basis of child care policies or pensions is crazy. These are party policy subjects rather than constitutional ones.

Also voting on the basis of child care policies or pensions is crazy. These are party policy subjects rather than constitutional ones.

I think the whole debate would benefit from some unbiased academic input. The white paper is too tied up with an SNP manifesto. A vote for Yes appears to be a vote for Salmond, a vote for No for Darling and co. It should not be like that.

I’d like devo max too but shot down straight away by cmd..
Voting yes for a better future for me and my family..Not because I hate anyone. Fail to see what the no campaign is offering us rather than the status quo- which for me isnt good enough.
Seem to recall a lot of promises being made back in the 70s about how things would be better after a no vote- that turned out to be a great 10 or so years for Scotland didnt it?
Someone mentioned that folk in Wales and the North suffered just as much as Scotland under the Tory government of the 80s.. theres no doubt about it but the Tory government did seem to have a special place in their hearts when it came to Scotland eh?

Sorry thm I don’t know but then I am not a golfist or a fifer. Elie is a nice place though and I did enjoy biking the Fife Coastal path. …didn’t enjoy cleaning the sand out of my gears though:-)

Scottish living in Scotland and will vote yes. Wife says she will be voting yes too.

The Yes campaign is cynically and depressingly opportunistic.
10-15 years ago Salmond et al were saying that we should be proud of RBS and BoS and that if we were independent we could be as wealthy as Iceland. Then Iceland’s banking sector collapsed catastrophically.
Next Salmond et al were saying that we could be a Celtic Tiger like Ireland if we were independent. Then Irelands construction industry and banks collapsed.
New flavour of the month is that if we become independent we will be as rich and successful as the Nordic countries.
The Yes campaign are charlatans selling snake oil.

Have people not learned from the 1997 “Things can only get better” type of political campaigning?
Things can get a lot worse and, for small countries, they can get worse very fast.

Why are the needs of Scotland any different to those of Wales, Yorkshire, or Devon?

Btw if separation does happen, I don’t see scotland and england moving too far apart anyhow

Depends how wide they make the moat!

Someone mentioned that folk in Wales and the North suffered just as much as Scotland under the Tory government of the 80s.. theres no doubt about it but the Tory government did seem to have a special place in their hearts when it came to Scotland eh?

It was me.

This is where I struggle with the Scottish English/Tory paranoia. The poor put upon Scots!

You ever go to Consett in the early 1980’s? Or the Durham coalfield? Liverpool was absolutely hammered in the 1980’s.
I am certain that similar areas of Scotland were fecked in an equally shitty manner but definitely no worse.

Dry your eyes, it was a class thing and not an area/country thing. If Surrey had steelworks they would of fecked them as well.

Living in Scotland but not Scottish, will vote No. If Scotland did say Yes I wouldn’t rush to leave, but probably would make me more keen to move elsewhere with time.

My brother lived and worked in Scotland on and off for about 10 years. I was quite surprised (as was he) at some of the anti English feeling he experienced up there. It was more than banter as it had quite an edge to it and in some cases was quite vitriolic. Not something that I see reflected here in England.

Not read the report but I suspect it is not really worth reading if you want a look at the cold hard facts about what may happen. I can’t help thinking that a Yes vote will give the Nationalists what they want ie Independence but it will not be the bed of roses they think / hope it will be. Employment opportunities may change – not necessarily for the better. For example, although they are cutting back massively at the moment, I wonder if Scottish applications to the UK armed forces will accepted. What about unemployment and unemployment benefit? Smaller pot to be funding that out of when it’s just Scotland. Almost certain to see tax rise – possibly quite considerably. I dunno, maybe it will work, but it is likely to be a long and fairly rocky road.

gordimhor – Member 
Sorry thm I don’t know but then I am not a golfist or a fifer. Elie is a nice place though and I did enjoy biking the Fife Coastal path. …didn’t enjoy cleaning the sand out

Having a bit of a joke there Gordie. I imagine that Elie is the (summer) home of the last remaining Tories in Scotland!! I used to enjoy the chain walk there and timing or mis-timing more often the tides. Had a few wet traverses of the final chains there years ago!!!

As I live in England and am English I have got to say I don’t really care which way Scotland votes. I would quite like it to be decided a bit sooner though so we don’t have to hear from that little weasel salmond.
I do think if you vote no then you are going to get screwed, but if you vote yes I think it will have massive negative effects on Scotland. I could see a lot of multinationals pulling out over concern about the currency issue.
If they do vote yes then Scotland should definitely get their level of debt and if rbs and hbos are to become Scottish then that debt needs to be paid too, our at the last Scotland will have payments to make to the rUK.
Good luck whatever happens as I wouldn’t want to be up there dealing with it.

Ha! I might have to move with my job if it does go independent.

I know a few people who are in that boat, as they have already seen their companies making contingency plans if its a ‘Yes’.

Mostly English, a bit Scottish and living in Scotland. I will be voting No because I genuinely believe that my life, and the others around me in Dundee, would be worse off in an independent Scotland.

I’m really only qualified to talk about the parts of the white paper that I am familiar with, which is University research, and bioscience at that. Scotland has 5 of the best research and teaching Universities in the UK (Edinburgh, Glasgow, Dundee, Aberdeen and St. Andrews) and in terms of research funding are net takers compared to Scottish tax contribution to the UK economy. This allows for the infrastructure that supports the Universities teaching and research to be built and maintained through research grant overheads and money from HEFCE apportioned on the basis of research excellence. Basically good research allows for good teaching infrastructure. Under Salmonds proposal, research funding would be maintained and tuition would remain free but there is no mention of how this would be achieved economically. I don’t believe it to be possible.

As Scotland wouldn’t be eligible for EU grant funding until it had joined the EU that is another major avenue cut off (~20% currently EU funded in Scotland) while major charities (~25% of current funding) based in England have already said that they would be unlikely to continue to support research in Scotland “due to the unlikely ability of the University sector to support itself in a devolved Scottish economy” and the difficulties of cross border trading. Basically an independent Scotland would be a bad investment for research.

I could go on but what the white paper boils down to is essentially undeliverable, even with the most optimistic economic projections. 2 Scottish University Vice Chancellors have described the potential of Scottish independence as “an unthinkable disaster” and “the end of Scottish higher education and research”. Another high up type even said that there is no point planning research strategies in an independent Scotland as the effects would be so devastating all plans would be rendered worthless. And no, none of these people were English.

As the Universities, particularly in Dundee, have helped enormously with economic impact and regeneration, crippling them would be a disaster. So much technology and innovation comes out of Universities that the loss of even a fraction of University research in Scotland would be a severe economic blow.

TL;DR? A most definite NO.

molgrips – Member 
Why are the needs of Scotland any different to those of Wales, Yorkshire, or Devon?

Think that’s just the variation of life, different people different place, different needs, just so happens some people think that it would better as a smaller single unit, rather than a larger one, might not be most of us, we’ll soon see.

Born in the highlands, grew up in Galloway, have lived in Manchester, St Andrews and Dundee as an adult and I’ll be voting yes.

For me it’s not about the SNP, it’s a vote for a future with more locally focused politics. Sure we might end up with a Tory government but at least they’ll be Scottish Tories who the majority must have voted for.

I dont mind paying a wee bit more in taxation if its for the greater good, and I think (or would like to) that most Scots are more left leaning and would support the same.

What’s the current STW vote count btw? Must still be close….

Well put Shakleton – Scotland has some of the best UNIs in the UK – pity to put all that at risk. You and NW can debate it over a few beers!!!

Think that’s just the variation of life, different people different place, different needs, just so happens some people think that it would better as a smaller single unit

My point is that the current UK has lots of regions with different needs. The needs vary according to socio economic profile, not ethnicity.

Some things are better on a larger scale, some on a smaller scale. That’s why we all need devo max, and that’s why I’d vote no, if I could.

Oh and you know damn well you’d just be moaning about bias towards the Central belt instead of Westminster. The rich folk in Edinburgh aren’t much closer to Highland sheep farmers than the ones in London. Only similarity is that they are Scottish. Which goes back to the jingoism argument.

This is getting on my goat!! Let them be independent, let them take their oil, just make sure they take their proportionate share of the debt, let them set up their own currency/central bank, make them apply to the EU independently and then watch them flurrish with local governance! !

This is getting on my goat!!

Terribly sorry that the future of the United Kingdom is so irritating.

Is it interrupting X Factor or something?

Maybe you shouldn’t open threads about it if it gets you so worked up eh? 😉

Mol, but as noted before not the Shetlands!!! (if wee eck is to be believed)

Oh and you know damn well you’d just be moaning about bias towards the Central belt instead of Westminster.

In fact that already happens IME.

I forgot to add, I think “we” as a nation would be better off sorting out the problem of Westminster style politics than fragmenting into ever smaller units. The UK is already being marginalised in the world order and Europe, we can’t afford to be any smaller!

I for one hope that there will be a no vote but enough will say yes that it will scare Westminster and give Scotland (not Salmond hopefully) leverage to extract more powers for local governance.