Scottish independence- where do you stand?

Trident replacement- government estimate says 25 billion pounds. (others claim up to 34 billion pounds). That’s a lot of oil money 😉

Current Trident costs according to the government are between 2 and 2.4 billion per annum. Though I don’t know if that’s complete costs, ie whether it includes decommissioning, base security, or even base staffing and support, maybe that’s just in the default naval budget… How about pensions, training… all that jive.

Lifetime cost of Trident is estimated at £100bn+.

That’s a lot of schools and hospitals.

Daffy the cost of the subs alone is over 25 billion , that doesn’t include maintenance. The missiles cost 17 million each and the cost of maintaining the missiles is predicted to be between 35-37 million for the year 2015-2016. On even the most approximate per capita basis that comes to more than 20 quid

I think it’s stupid for Salmond to have promised to make an independent Scotland free of weapons of mass destruction.

I mean, think of how many schools you could buy with the mine you’d make selling a couple of nuke subs to Iran.

TBF the importance of the trident saving isn’t really about pounds in each person’s pocket. It’s about not pissing away billions of quid on something we don’t need and will never use, while cutting services we will. Consider it a matter of fiscal intent and responsibility. £1 is too much.

Financial benefits or losses can be debated one way or another. Would I be better or worse off in the pocket in an independent Scotland. I really don’t know and I doubt anyone else truly knows. I feel there is more to the union than counting pound signs at Carter Bar. If we have been financially supporting the UK then so be it. Shame many feel the benefit of North Sea oil should be for the few and not the many. What is next, bickering that the Central Belt should not be benefiting from Aberdeen’s oil.

If Scotland was then better off financially, and I imagine our largest trading partner was worse off, would this not be bad for Scottish jobs, then bringing back a state of equilibrium?

I suppose we could rely on the multinationals with the carrot of lower tax rates. We seem to loathe these tax avoiding corporations but wish to lure them here anyway. Judas Salmond would sell his mother if it guaranteed a yes vote.

I think more of the fact my children are due to start school in the coming years, I feel they could miss out by receiving a Scotlandcentric education. I can imagine Shakespeare, Coleridge and Larkin dropping out of education for just Scottish based literature and poetry. Would World history be taught through a Scottish perspective?

athgray – Member

I feel they could miss out by receiving a Scotlandcentric education. I can imagine Shakespeare, Coleridge and Larkin dropping out of education for just Scottish based literature and poetry.

You can imagine whatever you like but since Scotland already has its own education system and has never shown any tendancy to do any of this, it’s fair to say it’ll stay as fantasy. (are Coleridge and Larkin even a set part of the english curriculum?)

Northwind – Member
TBF the importance of the trident saving isn’t really about pounds in each person’s pocket. It’s about not pissing away billions of quid on something we don’t need and will never use

You could apply the same logic to entirety of the armed forces, but I’d like to know how foolproof your crystal ball is.

RE Trident, a large part of the design cost (88%) is fronted by the Americans with a substantial portion of the remainder coming from Astute. The cost of the subs will be spread over 25 years needed to design and build them (so £1bn per year) the operating costs are ~1% of the NHS per year. £1bn/65m people = <£20 pp/py. I know this is simplistic, but hey.

I think that’s a small price to pay for the influence it gives us and the skills it maintains within the UK.

Grantway wanting to be independent has nothing to do with hating England.

Unfortunately, the small but vocal minority of idiots that like to blame the English for all their woes are likely to remain. It’ll either be a case of the nasty English fixing the results with a barrage of irresistible propaganda, or Scotland being shafted upon independence with a rough UK exit or EU entry deal*.

Not that I can figure out how that’s the fault of an office administrator working in the small village of Methwold, Norfolk. But it’ll be their fault nonetheless. This is the problem with idiots, it doesn’t need to make sense. You just need any old tenuous to make believe link in order to blame someone. Even if the fault clearly lies with someone completely different.

*i can however see Scotland’s negotiations on EU entry being nowhere near as rosy as the Yes campaign would have us believe. I’m very much seeing an EU ‘this is what we’re offering, and that’s all your getting’ being more likely than any genuine negotiation.

They were when I when I was at school Northwind. The Scottish education system has only had the weight of SNP government bearing upon it for a few years, give it time. A friend of mine is a teacher in Argyle and Bute (the constituency of SNP education minister no less), and he says that this is what is happening.

Arts project funding will be driven by the level of Scottishness. will English be taught as a second language with far greater time given over to Scots or Gaelic? History and Modern Studies will head the same way.

I can imagine this would be popular in an independent Scotland. “What nae Shakespeare? Gid, aah shouldnae be learnin that English s***e!

I know we are being told that a vote for independence is not a vote for the SNP, however this indoctrination of our kids and other parties on the back foot will see our dear leader cementing control. I was ridiculed for suggesting a more Russian style of leadership then came across this from Jim Sillars. I posted before but will do so again

SNP totalitarian says former deputy leader

Salmond may be cleverer and more astute that to ban the Conservatives outright, but I can imagine aggresive and dubious tactics will be used to all but eradicate them. I am sure if this happens the same people that clamour for greater democracy for a downtrodden nation will not bat an eye. In fact to quote the late, great Ollie Reed “they will love him for it”

I wait for a statue of our first Prime Minister. Could be constructed with resmelted Trident submarines and straddle the Clyde. There is a statue of a politician in Buchanan Street. Our Dear Leader is not fit to lace Donald Dewars boots.

I wait for a statue of our first Prime Minister. Could be constructed with resmelted Trident submarines and straddle the Clyde.

It might give all those newly unemployed people something to do…..

pissing away billions of quid on something we don’t need and will never use,

Northwind – That statement just highlights your ignorance about how a strategic nuclear deterrent works. Suggest you read up a bit.

Nobody sane ever wants to use them, for obvious reasons but it isn’t why you have them.

Scotland’s negotiating power should they vote YES will be zero. The rest of the UK will be holding all of the cards as Scotland comes cap in hand – ” can we have the pound please Mr Chancellor” “can we please keep some shipbuilding on the Clyde Mr Cameron” “pretty please” etc!

Nobody sane ever wants to use them, for obvious reasons but it isn’t why you have them.

It really is astounding that Germany, Japan, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Sweden, etc etc manage to survive without a strategic nuclear deterrent. They must all be ignorant idiots.

That isn’t why you have them. You have them so you can sit with the big boys on the Security Council. It’s all fur coat and no knickers, really.

If Scotland decide to leave the UK, i think a fair few countries in the EU would look at their reapplication to the EU in a dim light…..it would certainly rouse the Catalans and the Basques and Pedro wouldn’t like that….he’s having enough trouble with that little rock just about attached to the coast.

I think Yorkshire should leave too…… 😆

Scotland’s negotiating power should they vote YES will be zero. The rest of the UK will be holding all of the cards as Scotland comes cap in hand – ” can we have the pound please Mr Chancellor” “can we please keep some shipbuilding on the Clyde Mr Cameron” “pretty please” etc!

should keep the SNP in things to blame the English for another 500 years 😉

Germany, Japan

Now there’s a reason for that now isn’t there? The Japanese are only allowed a “Defense Force” FFS!

Canada, Australia, New Zealand,

Geographically and politically completely different.

Sweden

Now that’s just silly.

You have them so you can sit with the big boys on the Security Council.

You mean the Security Council that we helped to found and is arguably the most important part of the UN? Why wouldn’t we want to be on that? Like the French are?

Salmond may be cleverer and more astute that to ban the Conservatives outright, but I can imagine aggresive and dubious tactics will be used to all but eradicate them.

Ignoring the fact that comparing Salmond to Putin is absurd, whatever tactics Salmond would use to eradicate the Tories would hardly be more effective than the work they have done to eradicate themselves in Scotland over the last thirty years.

will English be taught as a second language with far greater time given over to Scots or Gaelic?

Now you’re just talking bollocks, to use a fine Anglo-Saxon word.

English be taught as a second language with far greater time given over to Scots or Gaelic? History and Modern Studies will head the same way

Yes this is exactly what will happen

That statement just highlights your ignorance about how a strategic nuclear deterrent works. Suggest you read up a bit.

Could you highlight where we have used it strategically since we had it and what massive advantages over say Spain or Portugal or AN OTHER non nuclear western democracy do you think it has given us?
Who is the country we are trying to deter and from what exactly?
Will it be stopping Al Qaeda?
Who is the enemy just waiting till we are non nuke ready to take advantage of this weakness?

arguably the most important part of the UN?

Very very arguable? Its not like they need them to wage war or use them to right wrongs. though I suspect Israel likes the fact the US vetos all the stuff on them though.

where we have used it strategically since we had it

Everytime a sub goes on patrol. Suggest you look up the defintion of Strategy.

Who is the country we are trying to deter and from what exactly?

Historically it was the USSR. We a currently living in a US hegemony so the lines aren’t quite as simple as they were in the Cold War. As nobody can predict what the World will look like in 10 years, nevermind 20, I would prefer to keep it thanks.

The last time we made an effort to disarm was the 1930’s and we all know what happened then.

I put this to you. Salmond is currently working to achieve his goal within a political setup created by far better people than himself. If say after time all is not quite going to plan, and there is a growing number of people wishing to return to union, will he allow that voice to be heard fairly, and weighty documents to be produced stating proposals for union? Would he heck!

a high level plan to achieve one or more goals under conditions of uncertainty.

Yes we use it but I asked what it had given us that other non nukes did not have – can i see the list of achievements please?
Even you are struggling to identify a threat here and just saying the future is uncertain which is true but justifies nothing really or anything.
Your only claim seems to be, just ours, stops another Hitler happening …good point well made

The last time we made an effort to disarm was the 1930’s and we all know what happened then.

If we had nuclear weapons in the 1930s, so would have Hitler. At what point would we have decided that Armageddon was the best option? When Czechoslovakia was invaded? When the Polish border was crossed? When France was invaded?

There was no point where starting a nuclear war was the best option.

If you get to the stage where a nuclear strike is the only option, you’ve already lost.

massive advantages over say Spain or Portugal or AN OTHER non nuclear western democracy

You mean all the NATO Countries who sit happily under the Nuclear Umbrella provided by the UK, USA and France?

can i see the list of achievements please?

A prolonged period of peace in Europe seems to be quite an achievement.

When Czechoslovakia was invaded?

It’s unlikely he would have invaded. He invaded because he suspected that the French and the UK would not of retaliated. He was right. In reality if they had been strong initially, the Nazis would of backed down, they were nowhere near ready to fight.

I love an argument/discussion gents but isn’t this a bit OT? 🙂

I put this to you. Salmond is currently working to achieve his goal within a political setup created by far better people than himself. If say after time all is not quite going to plan, and there is a growing number of people wishing to return to union, will he allow that voice to be heard fairly, and weighty documents to be produced stating proposals for union? Would he heck!

Are you genuinely suggesting that Salmond would erect a Lukashenkoesque police state if Scotland became independent?

The man did not say “I”, he said “We”.

We? I could say’we’ too, meaning Labour voters all over the country.

You act as if there is some fundamental difference between Scots and the rest of us.

You mean all the NATO Countries

Well you could have used AN Other country if you had wished it was free choice. I assume I can take it that you have no answer but you will continue to post retorts that skirt around the issue without admitting you cannot actually demonstrate any actual real success of this strategy nor identify an actual enemy. Still you keep supporting it without an enemy and without any proof of success, that is your right.

A prolonged period of peace in Europe seems to be quite an achievement.

I am not sure how you will prove Nukes were casual in this but I look fwd to seeing you try- I dont really you are not as good at arguing lost causes as you seem to think you are 😉
I would rather have though the UN, the EU and NATO – you know being allies, was far more critical than the fact we had nukes.
Ie we made political and diplomatic peace rather than used diplomacy from the barrel of a gun

He invaded because he suspected that the French and the UK would not of retaliated

Just like with Poland?
I am not sure Hitler, given he invaded his ally Russia, can be considered to have been the most rational of decision makers.

What do the current polls say about the projected vote?

Yes 38%, No 47%, Undecided 15% I believe is the latest poll.

I would rather have though the UN, the EU and NATO

A nuclear NATO made the possible outcome of a Soviet invasion or a NATO preemptive strike stopped either happening. Despite the hawks on both sides. The USSR vastly outnumbered us in men and machinery in Europe.

Just like with Poland?
I am not sure Hitler, given he invaded his ally Russia, can be considered to have been the most rational of decision makers.

Mot sure what you are getting at here?
The Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact was never an alliance. An extremist far right leader invades an extremist far left country, not exactly a surprise is it? Using that as an example of how irrational Hitler was is a strange one!

Yes 38%, No 47%, Undecided 15% I believe is the latest poll.

That’s what this article says:
http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/scottish-independence-no-ahead-by-9-new-poll-1-3201333

Thanks rene, pretty close then it seems. That undecided 15% comprise of which section of the electorate i wonder?

Where did this argument of Scotland being a peace loving pacifist country in the face of a war mongering neighbour come from? Victims of the Indian Mutiny may have thought differently about both the British army and Scottish regiments. AFAIK Iraq in 2003 is the only conflict where a groundswell of anti war sentiment had little effect. Prior to that time Scotland has been a willing combatant both within and prior to the union. I was in Australia at the time and saw protests in Hobart to the same effect. Several governments took their countries to war against the wishes of its people. As Scotland had no independent government at the time, it is pure speculation to suggest we would not have been involved.

The irony of the sentiment glorifying war in what is considered Scotland’s National Anthem appears lost on some. It does talk of the days being “in the past” but with a huge slice of :wink:For the record I am not a supporter of God Save the Queen either. Both should be consigned to the bin.

If we had nuclear weapons in the 1930s, so would have Hitler. At what point would we have decided that Armageddon was the best option? When Czechoslovakia was invaded? When the Polish border was crossed? When France was invaded?

Definitely after France. And then nuke all enemy held territory.

The latest poll courtesy of everyone’s favourite paper

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2516317/Poll-reveals-just-QUARTER-Scots-want-leave-UK-following-launch-referendum-campaign.html

Where did this argument of Scotland being a peace loving pacifist country in the face of a war mongering neighbour come from?

You, unless you can highlight anyone else saying it.

I feel dirty and used

Another article from the FT that some might find interesting

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/83d6b9d2-5796-11e3-86d1-00144feabdc0.html#axzz2mEMfzVlk

Thanks rene, pretty close then it seems. That undecided 15% comprise of which section of the electorate i wonder?

I remember reading something early last week which suggested the majority of the undecided were traditional Labour voters but typically I can’t find any reference to it now.

Athgray you think that Vladimir Putin is broadly comparable to Alex Salmond . I thought I ll have a look on the Amnesty International site and see how they compare the two.
I found 64 reports blogs and press releases about Putin/Russia and 13 about Salmond/Scotland. Many of the articles about Salmond/Scotland were broadly favourable to Salmond and Scotland 1 critical one was about rendition flights which the UK government had ordered and which the Scottish Government were not informed of.
Then there’s Putin, Amnesty is concerned about repressive anti gay legislation, persecution of critics of the government, Pussy Riot jailed for miming to lyrics critical of Putin.The disappearance of one of the group from the prison in which she had been held . The Foreign Agents Law which designates any ngo receiving foreign funding or engaging in’political activity’ as foreign agents.Hundreds of these organisations have been raided this year. .
I wonder if the people sitting in Russian prisons would agree that Mr Putin and Mr Salmond are similar
EDIT I forgot about the greenpeace activists currently in custody in Russia