And some people can’t afford to take that hit – how do we make sure they don’t go below the poverty line etc?

The same people who can’t afford to take a hit on Brexit, and I’m sure some of them voted for it. If there’s one thing the Scottish government is fairly decent at, it’s supporting those in that position, to be fair.

I really don’t give a flying **** about details now, we’re not North Korea ffs, we’ll be fine, even if it costs in the short term I believe we’d be better off in the long term. Being controlled by a bunch of millionaires 300 miles away isn’t really working any more.

We’ll be fine. That’s not quite enough for me with 400 employees with mortgages, savings, pensions and families. I admire your bullishness and no we are not North Korea but if we’re going to vote for a fundamental, irreversible change predicated on unfounded promises then I’d like a bit of detail. This, in my opinion, is why Brexit is a shambles as frankly nobody knew what they were actually voting for other than ‘change’.

The grass is always greener, ,mainly due to it being irrigated with Bulls….

You’re in a different position from me, I understand your concerns and won’t argue or disagree, I’m merely pointing out my view on it.

It’s uncertainty and chaos either way but in one scenario, it’s presided over by obviously flawed but fairly sensible politicians (of all parties )at Holyrood or , seemingly, unhinged maniacs ( of the two main parties) at Westminster.

I know which of these two choices i’d make.

NZ col – there is plenty of detail out there the problem is a lot of it has to be surmise. for example how hardball England behaves leads to different issues.

But check SNP site for detailed proposals. A lot of work done on currency and finances for example

Good discussion regarding Scottish independence on LBC James O’Brien at the moment

Yeah I’ve read it all TJ, it’s not actually been independently verified as possible though. My Tax guys have a long list of questions they submitted which remain unanswered as by the admission, they can’t be right now. The fundamental question of HOW scotland would become an independent country IN the EU is absent though. And that’s sort of the Keystone to the whole thing.

It’s uncertainty and chaos either way but in one scenario, it’s presided over by obviously flawed but fairly sensible politicians (of all parties )at Holyrood or , seemingly, unhinged maniacs ( of the two main parties) at Westminster.

It does cause quite a few envious glances north, from south of the border, that you at least have the potential an ejector seat from the complete madhouse that this country has become.

If I was Scottish the voting out would have been a no brainer las time around. After the insanity of the last few years…

Then I read and yesterdays interview with Nichola Sturgeon in yesterdays Guardian advising less unhinged English people to move to Scotland, and thinking… ‘Hmmmmm…. tandoori munchie boxes….’

I was no before. I’d be yes now if the snp had some firm guarantees on what the future would look like, and those guarantees made independence viable.

But check SNP site for detailed proposals. A lot of work done on currency and finances for example

They need far more than a proposal. There’s no point in complaining about people voting for brexit based on ‘pie in the sky’ thinking, then going down the same route for scottish independence. Id want to see a guarantee of acceptance to the eu as a bare minimum for example.

Find it astonishing that the same folks who complain about the lack of a plan for brexit appear to be prepared to wing it with independence…the hypocrisy is astounding.

Id want to see a guarantee of acceptance to the eu as a bare minimum for example.

legally impossible. the EU cannot negotiate with a part of a member country. No competence. However its as clear as it can be that scotland would be welcomed back / to continue

‘Hmmmmm…. tandoori munchie boxes….’

They’re a Scottish Government initiative to reduce NHS costs by having you die at fifty of heart disease.

Clever, right?

I was a no before, I’d be a yes now as we are clearly two very different countries who want to go in different directions, why should one hold the other back?

Edit- Sorry Wales, you voted to leave and NI can come with us 🙂

 if the snp had some firm guarantees on what the future would look like, and those guarantees made independence viable.

There’s no guarantee that the SNP would be in power post-Indy, but then that’s the beauty of a democracy.

There’s no guarantee that the SNP would be in power post-Indy, but then that’s the beauty of a democracy.

This pickles the heads of my unionist SNP hating colleagues. The only way to get rid of the SNP is to vote yes. 🙂

 Id want to see a guarantee of acceptance to the eu as a bare minimum for example.

I understand and sympathise with this conundrum. The EU cannot take a stance while Scotland is in the UK. However, acceptance would be simpler if we didn’t leave as part of the UK. There has been talk of a constitutional “holding area” for Scotland while we’re out but not quite out, but who knows?

owever its as clear as it can be that scotland would be welcomed back / to continue

But what’s the process for ‘being accepted back’ as I understand it it’s convoluted and requires ALL the other EU states to vote for it. Which then brings Catalonia careering out of Spain so Spain would likely say no etc etc. Therein lies the conundrum. Call me a control freak but when i step off a ledge i like to know whats below me.

Spain have said theyve got no problem with it

Catalonia indie & scotland indie are different in many ways, ie, Spain isnt pulling the catalans out of the EU against their wishes

https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-spain-politics-scotland/spain-would-not-oppose-future-independent-scotland-rejoining-eu-minister-idUKKCN1NP25P

Catalonia / spain is no longer an issue. Actual process depends on where we are when the vote happens – a it must do

tjagain

Member
Id want to see a guarantee of acceptance to the eu as a bare minimum for example.

legally impossible. the EU cannot negotiate with a part of a member country.

That becomes much easier after brexit.

Which to be honest, could well be the defining factor in how this goes. If brexit happens, you’d imagine IS campaigning goes into overdrive.

If it doesn’t, you’d imagine not alot will happen all that quickly, cause the premise of the SNP’s stance on material change dissappears.

Ultimately, we just need to wait until this october deadline passes as Boris has seemingly set that up as a do or die moment.

You’d imagine if that deadline passes and no brexit then surely, brexit must be dead.

I was also no before but now I’m sitting on the fence. The main thing holding me back from being fully pro-independent is the likelihood of a future Labour administration. Every UK Labour Government since WW2 has put the country in recession as they are inept with the country’s finances. We’re then left with harsh Tory policies to get the country back out of recession (which possibly has something to do with why they are generally hated by so many).
On a UK level, a recession is hard enough to cope with, but with a smaller Scottish economy, the ability to pull out of a recession will be even more difficult and painful.

And an independent Scotland wouldn’t be measured as being in recession ? We don’t exactly have what would be described as a booming economy (I just checked with my economists before i typed that bit given my Spain faux pas above !)
I’m utterly on the fence frankly, I can see both sides and am not happy with the UK direction but that in itself does not comfort me that independence would be less bad. There’s so little concrete detail of fact, all we have is emotive drive to do it. Which is nice, but I’d like to know what the terms of this deal would be.

So what’s the tories excuse this time? There’s been no recession for the entire time they’ve been in power recently.

The 2007/09 dip was exactly that, just a dip, it wasn’t the tories that sorted that, that was a global issue. And time cameron had came along Brown had done all the donkey work there.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/281734/gdp-growth-in-the-united-kingdom-uk/

Plus how do you factor in the the early 80s recession and the early 90s recession. Tories had been in power for 1 year and 11 years respectively there.

“amatuer
I was also no before but now I’m sitting on the fence. The main thing holding me back from being fully pro-independent is the likelihood of a future Labour administration. Every UK Labour Government since WW2 has put the country in recession as they are inept with the country’s finances”

Seen this?

https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-qa-which-party-has-a-better-track-record-on-the-economy

“rightwing, kamikaze unionist faction” is my phrase of the day:

https://www.commonspace.scot/articles/14573/exclusive-scottish-labour-kamikaze-unionists-issued-indy-parliamentary-statement

Scottish Labour don’t like policy being handed down from London.

I guess they don’t do irony either.

It would be funny if it wasn’t so tragic scotroutes

I had hopes for Leonard as scottish leader but he is still making exactly the same mistakes as the last 3 labour leaders in Scotland. He has forgotten the SNP are not the enemy – the tories are.

today just gets better & better for Sturgeon

https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/news/4656461/ruth-davidson-quit-scottish-tory-leader-boris-johnson/

We don’t exactly have what would be described as a booming economy

better than rUK and restricted by Westminster.

The SNP are really trying to dampen expectations.

The problem with having an exit poll saying 55 seats is that if they end up with less than 45 now it’s going to seem like a loss.

So TJ,

Fancy me as a neighbour?

🙂

I think we’ll get on in real life.

*searches for jobs in Scotland*

not really seeing that at all, just waiting on results coming in, bit silly to start celebrating before that happens.

predicting Rutherglen and Hamilton west to go from labour to SNP. It was first out last time, about 1.15ish.

The SNP are really trying to dampen expectations.

The problem with having an exit poll saying 55 seats is that if they end up with less than 45 now it’s going to seem like a loss.

TBF, no one wants more than 49 .

Where’s nice to live in Scotland? ;-0

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A gentle preemptive warning, please keep this on topic. If you have us playing forum Whack-a-mole across multiple threads it won’t end well.
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No talking about England. Got it!

Where’s nice to live in Scotland?

Nowhere. It’s all shit. It rains all the time and there are man-eating midges.

Not sure where I’d like to live in Scotland tbh. Glasgow’s busy and messy, Edinburgh’s nice but the biking’s rubbish, and everywhere else is too far from an airport for me to travel for work, I think. Maybe Stirling but the local biking doesn’t look great.

I think this could be the last election where we see a Scottish leader of a major (ie, UK wide) party.

There is simply no seat in Scotland safe enough for an MP to campaign from. I’m not sure what happens if a party gets the majority of seats but its party leader loses their seat.

Do we have laws in the UK like they do in Spain for unauthorised referendums? 😉

5000 majority for the SNP in Rutherglen and Hamilton West.

Scotland to extend border to Lancaster. England can have the rest.