TJ,

eat the pudding – scottish and english nationalism are diametrically opposite. One is blood nd soil, the other civic.

Really? Despite Siol nan Gaidheal having a benner at the front of the march for independence in glasgow?

How would you react if you saw a pro brexit march with a bnp (or equivalent) logo at the front?

You keep using the word nationalism. I do not think it means what you think it means.

But if you can’t see that getting Tory governments imposed on us against our will is a fundamental political difference. I really don’t know how I can explain that to you.

Important bits highlighted in bold.

But this is the case across the UK. This is what it looks like where I live *after* a historic swing to Tories.

But only the Scottish get to opt out because … they’re different?

Nationalism stinks.

I’m quite aware of how Wales voted. I have looked at the numbers, and I’m aware where the bulk of the population is.

What do you want me to do, stick with you and endure eternal tory governments?

I’m sorry about that, but you are better having that argument internally rather than lashing out at us.

You have your own parliament. Start fighting for that.

molgrips

Subscriber
But if you can’t see that getting Tory governments imposed on us against our will is a fundamental political difference. I really don’t know how I can explain that to you.

Important bits highlighted in bold.

We have a cultural identity and an outlet for it, is that really the definition of exceptionalism? really?

You have both yourself. Stop feeling sorry for yourself and do something about it.

eat_the_pudding
Siol nan Gaidheal

You’re just trolling now. 😆

Anyhow, this was a good conversation, but it’s descended into farce.

I’m oot.

The only Scottish exceptionalism I’m aware of on these threads is the one suggesting that, alone amongst the nations of the world, Scotland is incapable of self-determination.

A common complaint about Brexit was that people didn’t know exactly what they were voting for. If there were to be a second independence vote tomorrow then the same applies. Why not leave it a while and see where we are further down the line.

This is my thinking. I’ve gone from dead against to a maybe, but ultimately I’d like to know what’s on offer from both sides first and make an informed decision.

A 2 stage referendum makes most sense to me..1st one is shall we go away and negotiate, 2nd a confirmation on the outcome of the negotiation. That would at least stop us being promised the world and delivered a pile of crap, as per brexit.

Sturgeon is beginning to get my back up now however. She’s convinced brexit will be a disaster, so if she’s so sure why doesn’t she wait 3-5 years, let us see how bad it is then give us the choice. If she really wanted what’s best for the country she’d give us that opportunity. Instead she (as always) is puttimg the nationalists agenda ahead of the good of the country by trying to capitalise on ill will towards brexit and the Tories.

Either way it’s a bit of a non issue. Tories won’t grant a ref in next 5 years. They have no need to appease scotland or the snp, and without Westminster’s approval any vote would carry no legitimacy at all.

a disaster, so if she’s so sure why doesn’t she wait 3-5 years, let us see how bad it is then give us the choice.

(a) the longer the delay, the more damage will be done to the economy and the harder it will be to rejoin the EU

(b) the independence movement is more broad than the SNP. If she’s not seen to be making progress she (and ultimately the SNP) will be out of power.

But this is the case across the UK. This is what it looks like where I live *after* a historic swing to Tories.But this is the case across the UK. This is what it looks like where I live *after* a historic swing to Tories.

Zoom out a bit for context:

The other thing that annoys me is for years the pro union vote has been in the lead, with only a very few polls showing independence being ahead, and usually by only a tiny majority.

The snp however seem to think that all it takes is one moment in time of being ahead in the polls to justify another referendum, something that if it goes the way of yes will be irreversible.

Given the very nature of the discussion, and the fine balance between numbers both for and against there needs to be either a long term and consistent majority for independence, or a fairly significant majority – ie over 60 %. Decisions like this shouldn’t be made on the back of one referendum where the majority is wafer thin.

Not a single one of the Nationalist arguments make sense unless you impose a fundamental difference between Scots and English (cos no-one cares about Wales or NI).

This is Nationalism.

The voting argument does not make sense – you are citing the fact that Scotland voted en masse for a party that did not stand in England.

He says while standing there championing the cause of British nationalism…

Defo oot this time. 😆

England could have voted LibDem if the electorate had wanted a “middle road”.

What is unique about the wishes of (many of) the Scottish people for self-determination that makes them so different from, say, India?

Rightly or wrongly it’s coming across that you just don’t want Wales to be left behind with the English.

Just so that I understand this, molgrips:

We say that there are consistently differences between the way Scotland votes and the way England votes.

We then say this is a sign that there are fundamental political differences between us.

By saying this it automatically makes us nationalists in the same vein as brexiteers?

What is unique about the wishes of (many of) the Scottish people for self-determination that makes them so different from, say, India?

A majority of Scottish voters have voted for pro-union parties in every single election the UK has ever had. The majority is smaller now but still a majority. Scotland is free to vote anyway it likes, and so far has chosen to remain part of the UK.

That may change in the future, but we aren’t being held against our will, or “imprisoned” as the SNP said the other day.

England could have voted LibDem if the electorate had wanted a “middle road”.

With a proper PR voting system I suspect many more would have done so. But that’s another debate.

That may change in the future, but we aren’t being held against our will, or “imprisoned” as the SNP said the other day.

I agree (hence my qualifier), but it’s surely not wrong to seek self-determination if/when that’s what the majority want? Molgrips seems to have some fundamental objection to the principle.

molgrips

But only the Scottish get to opt out because … they’re different?

The Empire’s days are over.

Almost everyone has opted out. N. America. Australia, NZ, Kenya, Malta etc etc

So we’re no different, we want to opt out too…

As I said Molgrips you appear neither to understand the difference between the nationalism of the SNP and than of the BNP and also how much the countries are diverging politically

I can give some examples – Scottish nationalism is outward looking and inclusive – best shown by this quote from Bashir Ahmed – the first non white to be elected to Holyrood
” Its not where I come from as a person that matters, its where we are going as a country”
Scottish nationalism is not based on blood or ethnicity – its based around a shared identity as the people of scotland not as ethnic scots. All immigrants are welcome.

#As for the political divergence – just look at post war voting patterns. Scotland has not voted for a majority of Tories since the 50s, and the far right get almost no support up here.

During the independence ref campaign we were told that as an independent country we would have no more influence on world affairs than Finland – we shrugged and said ” sounds about right” NO delusions of “punching above our weight” and clinging onto dreams of empire. We look to countries like Holland and Sweden and see a much better way of life we would like to emulate – but we cannot while remaining part of the UK.
Maybe you have to live here to understand this but its obvious when you do.

By saying this it automatically makes us nationalists in the same vein as brexiteers?

No. But it does make you nationalists.

He says while standing there championing the cause of British nationalism…

I what now? I’m a European federalist.

We say that there are consistently differences between the way Scotland votes and the way England votes.

Because the ballot papers were different.

Maybe you have to live here to understand this but its obvious when you do.

Lol. ‘We’re not exeptionalists, we’re just different and better, it’s obvious’

I can give some examples – Scottish nationalism is outward looking and inclusive – best shown by this quote from Bashir Ahmed – the first non white to be elected to Holyrood

Just like Brexit then. Have you seen Sajid Javid and Priti Patel?

He says while standing there championing the cause of British nationalism…

I what now? I’m a European federalist.

You are greeting at us for wanting to leave the British project…That’s British nationalism right there.

You are trying to claim we believe we have a special reason for leaving.. Nup, just don’t believe in Westminster domination and want out.

I’m the least scottish “nationalist” person you’d meet.

Why don’t you just move up and vote with us? Sound like you want to be Scottish anyhow! 😆 Yer more than welcome.

Probably the best chance you get at a shot of European federalism anyhow, you’ve no chance under westminster.

Which is exactly what I am too btw, am all for a European state of small nations. It would be great if France, Germany, Spain and Italy would revert back to smaller blocks too, say 4/5 to 20m tops, under a common European federal banner, unlikely I know but it’s defo not happening under a British flag..

Trying to be oot, but it’s hard, ah f it, back in.. 😆

Maybe you have to live here to understand this but its obvious when you do.

Lol. ‘We’re not exeptionalists, we’re just different and better, it’s obvious’

Tbh, that’s just TJ, most of us are quite well aware there’s plenty of nobends up here too. 😆

Why don’t you just move up and vote with us?

It’s only my intense dislike of nationalism that currently stops me*.

* and my ageing parents

” Its not where I come from as a person that matters, its where we are going as a country”
Scottish nationalism is not based on blood or ethnicity – its based around a shared identity as the people of scotland not as ethnic scots. All immigrants are welcome.

I am not equating nationalism with racism.

But only the Scottish get to opt out because … they’re different?

Well, those in Northern Ireland may well get a chance and the only thing stopping Wales is, well, the Welsh.

tbh, the only overt nationalism that really exists is a few days when they feel the urge to kick about George square or go on a march or two a few times out of the year.

I honestly think it’s just more of a social event for most of the flag waving types. They are utterly harmless. A bit a kin to a gala day out or something, not for me, but they really aren’t a danger to anyone.

I agree (hence my qualifier), but it’s surely not wrong to seek self-determination if/when that’s what the majority want?

I totally agree.

So we’re no different, we want to opt out too…

Except that the majority of us don’t want to.

kennyp

Subscriber
So we’re no different, we want to opt out too…

Except that the majority of us don’t want to.

IF you are so convinced, why not go for a quick ref and clamp us.

Otherwise the trend is only going one way.

IF you are so convinced, why not go for a quick ref and clamp us.

I’ve said above that I’m in favour of a second vote if that is what the majority want. However I think it should be in a few years when we see how things are going. If Brexit truly is a monumental disaster I may even vote for independence myself. However at the moment we do not have anything like the necessary information to make such a crucial decision. The union has been around for three hundred years so is another three too many to wait?

Otherwise the trend is only going one way.

But is it though? I mean we’ve had Brexit, an idiot elected as PM etc and yet the polls show no significant shift from the vote in 2014.

If the SNP can’t score a goal from three yards out when the opposition goalie has gone to the pub for a pint then they are never going to get a better chance.

We know the Tories are going to shaft us for at least 5, probably 10 years, then Labour might get in, but then the Tories will get back in probably for another 20 years and continue the shafting.

But is it though?

The demographics don’t favour the union.

Molgrips – thats really offensive. I did not say better – just across the country there is a different political consensus. We want on average differnt things. Higher taxes to give a better welfare state being one of them.

Nothing to do with what is on the ballot paper – you realise there is hardly a fag paper between labour and the SNP on most issues? Why does the far right get no traction up here?

What little hard right we have is actually unionist not nationalist.

So why are the polls showing no significant shift to independence? It’s a genuine question regardless of views on yes/no.

Also, what if Boris point blank refuses to grant a second referendum and in the 2021 election again a majority vote for parties opposed. What do the SNP do?

Why does the far right get no traction up here?

Probably because Scotland doesn’t have the same levels of immigration that parts of England does. That’s where the far right thrives. I’d love to think I am wrong but I suspect Scotland has the same latent nastiness, it just hasn’t found a breeding ground yet.

Cause of Brexit is my guess, it make people a bit weary, but well, that’s here so, things should start to shift i think. Particularly in the face of tory intransigence.

The demographics is a seemingly slow moving game, but one day in the not so distant future, that’ll hit us in the face if Boris doesn’t tip us over the edge.

Also, what if Boris point blank refuses to grant a second referendum and in the 2021 election again a majority vote for parties opposed. What do the SNP do?

It’ll need to bid it’s time.

Kenny – there has been some movement but not a lot but its been slowly climbing to around evens now. I suspect the next poll will show a significant movement but we have to wait and see. I like many others would like to see a darn sight more than 50/50 tho. Its all about that pragmatic third of the electorate in the middle and they need some convincing. Anecdotaly people are moving from unionism to independence. However the strand of nationalism that is Out / Out may be less likely to vote for independence as in 2014 they would be hoping for an independent scotland outside the EU wheras now post brexit it is clear that we would end up / remain in the EU so perhaps they are now against independence?

the independence movement has a number of sub tribes some of whom want out of the EU I suspect they are moving to NO as others move to yes

As for the next move given a section 30 order will clearly be refused I do not know nor can I see one. The UN route to self determination is not clear cut and the unionist parties could wreck a referendum by a boycott.

Perhaps legal challenges?

I am sure the SNP have something up their sleeve however

Probably because Scotland doesn’t have the same levels of immigration that parts of England does.

Do you have any data for that?

I ask because I remember reading one study that said that in strong leave voting areas the most common reason for voting leave was ‘because I feel like I a stranger in my own country.’

The only problem with that was that the areas with the strongest leave vote also corresponded with the areas of lowest immigration.

Kenny – its not just that tho that point may be valid but even in areas where there is a fair amount of immigration we see very little far right traction. I suspect its partly the way the SNP have channelled national pride into being inclusive – its just not acceptable in the nationalist movement to be anti immigrant – that and the hard right nutters of the rangers variety hang their allegiance to unionism

I see it a bit like the Scottish football fans abroad – its self policing. As with the fans if someone ties to act up they get policed by the rest of the fans. I think that the people who would want to be hard right blood and soil nationalists realise there in no place for them in the independence movement and thus there is no breeding ground for them and their xenophobia is challenged by the nationalists