The other problem with a lot of comments on here is to lump all Tory voters together, or all SNP etc.

Have some of you actually met any Scottish or English Tories? I’m tired of being described as racist, sexist, nationalist and unkind. Im not.

Governments, ideologies, voting intention are all very complicated. There are dozens of different types of Tory just as there different types of Labour and SNP supporters.

People need to be more respectful. This thread has evolved into a micro version of the national debate, and it shows why the country can’t heal. More extreme voices are drowning out the centrists. I think most Brits are centrist, but we didn’t have a choice.

We want on average differnt things.

But still, there is only a ‘we’ because of the invisible line. You could very easily draw a line across England and get different average results; across Wales, or probably across Scotland too.

you realise there is hardly a fag paper between labour and the SNP on most issues?

But SNP wasn’t led by Corbyn was it? If we’d had someone other than Corbyn we’d have a Labour government by now and that argument would dissolve. There are so many issues involved here all over the place, far beyond policy, and yet you are choosing to interpret it as us/them.

Would you support Welsh independence? Northern English independence? London independence?

You had two choices – labour or lib dems. Both occupy the centre. SNP are only a fag paper away from the most recent labour manifesto and in the past the SNP have been more left wing

Brave of you to put your head above the parapet but by voting tory you have voted for a racist PM.

I have removed the Bevan quote I orginally put in

But still, there is only a ‘we’ because of the invisible line. You could very easily draw a line across England and get different average results; across Wales, or probably across Scotland too.

NOpe – not at all.
https://principalfish.co.uk/electionmaps/

I’ve not commented on individual tories.

It’s that the system is rigged in that parites favour. It’s it’s going to be more rigged when boris’s gerrymandering is finished.

Re the polls question above. Yes they have moved a bit, but even as a unionist I’m surprised they haven’t shown a solid support for independence. Maybe as Brexit kicks in they will.

However if I was the SNP leadership I’d be worried that what may happen is that things settle down a bit, people shrug their shoulders and pretty much say “Ah well, it is what it is”. While people on things like STW are generally quite motivated politically (which is why we’re having this debate) large parts of the population are fairly apathetic. I mean we’ve just had what was regarded as a super important election, yet one in three voters couldn’t be bothered to tun out. People do quickly get used to things and living in a post-Brexit country may be one of those. Who knows, only time will tell.

Molgrips – my personal preference would be for a federal europe of small nation states of around 5 – 15 million people. Most european countries larger than that would happily split.

If thats not going to happen I would prefer a federal UK of similar size units.

But thats not going to happen

My only way to get a progressive government is to support scottish independence. Its far from my preferred option but its my pragmatic choice

As regards the far right TJ, I would love it if you are right and I am wrong. I am not convinced though. When the Irish arrived on the west coast in large numbers they faced huge amounts of hostility and downright violence.

Have some of you actually met any Scottish or English Tories? I’m tired of being described as racist, sexist, nationalist and unkind. Im not.

Not many but then only 25% of the population voted Tory. I’m not saying you’re racist or xenophobic but you gave them your vote and strengthened their mandate.

And yes, the Scottish Tories I have spoken to tend to be racist. They seem to be the only ones comfortable admitting it.

If we’d had someone other than Corbyn we’d have a Labour government by now and that argument would dissolve.

Assuming Boris sees out a 5 year session, it’ll be 70 years since the voters Scotland opted for a Tory government.

You’re ignoring my argument because you think the Scottish border is different to any other line I could draw on the map separating voting groups.

I see it a bit like the Scottish football fans abroad – its self policing. As with the fans if someone ties to act up they get policed by the rest of the fans. I think that the people who would want to be hard right blood and soil nationalists realise there in no place for them in the independence movement and thus there is no breeding ground for them and their xenophobia is challenged by the nationalists

TJ’s defo drank the cool aid. 😆

molgrips

Subscriber
You’re ignoring my argument because you think the Scottish border is different to any other line I could draw on the map separating voting groups.

The question goes back to you, why is the British border sacrosanct?

The question goes back to you, why is the British border sacrosanct?

It’s not. I’d vote for European Federalism, as I said before. Moving to world federalism whenever that’s possible.

You’re ignoring my argument because you think the Scottish border is different to any other line I could draw on the map separating voting groups.

NO I haven’t. Your point simply is not right unless you draw something very convoluted which is why I put a link to the electoral map.

also I have explained to you that scots nationalism is not an ideological issue to me. Its a pragmatic one. Its just scots independence is the only way I am going to get a government I would like – a progressive one. I am more than happy for other groups to also secede from the UK but there is no way you can draw a line on a map that gives any region of england bar inner london a differnt political tinge. Just look at the map

Go on – draw me a line on a map of the UK that would give a different political slant each side of it.

It’s not. I’d vote for European Federalism, as I said before. Moving to world federalism whenever that’s possible.

You’d be perfectly happy with the UK as the 51st state of the US then? Or for your kids to be brought up speaking Chinese instead of English? How about them being conscripted into a Russian army?

Do you have any data for that?

To be honest no, it’s just a gut feeling.

kennyp

Subscriber
As regards the far right TJ, I would love it if you are right and I am wrong. I am not convinced though. When the Irish arrived on the west coast in large numbers they faced huge amounts of hostility and downright violence.

There plenty of racism in scotland currently. (I think it’s a bigger attitude problem than the much publicised sectarian issues) I agree with you, more immigration and it would probably lead to some tensions, could be managed better though, so that doesn’t necessarily need to be the case.

But aye, scotland isn’t immune to it.

] And yes, the Scottish Tories I have spoken to tend to be racist

Whilst I would never vote for the tory Party, I’ve met far far more bigots that support the snp than tories. They make up the minority of their supporters, but they exist and are very vocal.

You only had to have a brief look on the the independence posts on fb to see the irrational hatred that was spewed forth on pretty much every thread.

I didn’t see the same on pro union threads..

Its just scots independence is the only way I am going to get a government I would like – a progressive one

I’m pretty certain I’m gonny think the Scottish government are arses a lot of the time. 😆

As a centrist I didn’t have 2 choices. Labour under Corbyn is/was very left wing, pretty much socialist. I agreed with the Lib Dems more, but the revoke the referendum without a say was abhorrent to me. If they had offered a second referendum I probably would have voted them, even though I didn’t like Swinson.

Regardless, my point was there were many complex reasons why people voted Tory. Racism, nationalism and xenophobia were not mine or many others.

Labour under Corbyn is/was very left wing, pretty much socialist.

As TJ has pointed out, there was hardly a bawhair between the SNP policies and those of the Labour party. In fact, many of the commitments made were simple regurgitating some of the policies currently already enacted in Scotland (even ones Labour had previously voted against).

Regardless, my point was there were many complex reasons why people voted Tory. Racism, nationalism and xenophobia were not mine or many others.

tbh my problem with the tory party isn’t particularly racism, nationalism or xenophobia. It’s their political philosophies of every man for themselves I disagree with.

Racism, nationalism or xenophobia are minority issues. Granted that might not seem like it’s so to their victims, but largely when talking in terms of populations it is.

scotroutes

Labour under Corbyn is/was very left wing, pretty much socialist.

As TJ has pointed out, there was hardly a bawhair between the SNP policies and those of the Labour party. In fact, many of the commitments made were simple regurgitating some of the policies currently already enacted in Scotland (even ones Labour had previously voted against).

Corbyns problem was that everyone suspected his policies where just the tip of the iceberg, they were more a nod to socialism than actual socialism. Corbyns big problem though was his lack of commitment on fairly easy questions. He was trying to be too coy and smart for his own good when people just wanted straight easy answers.

Corbyns big problem was the attack dogs of the tory controlled media! Same as Red Ed and same as the next labour leader.

Tom Zesty – you cannot have it both ways. If the SNP are centrist then so are labour. Indeed that is true. We had centre left and centre right choices in england – labour and lib Dems. You voted hard right.

Noting in the labour manifesto would be out of place in a social democrat party anywhere in europe

I’m tired of being described as racist, sexist, nationalist and unkind. Im not.

You may not be but you are voting for and supporting a party that is. You may not be racist, sexist or nationalistic but if you cannot see that the tory polices and the way they implement them is unkind then you are not looking very hard or maybe so detached from them you really don’t realise.

Why people get so angry about what the tories do is because they are closer to the impact they have.

I never said I thought the SNP were centrist?

I think my definition of centre left and hard right are probably different to many of yours. To me, centre left was Blair. Corbyn, momentum and McDonell are considerably more left than that. To me, hard right is BNP, not the new government that includes many more working class and young MPs. Not saying I’m right and you’re wrong, just offering a different perspective.

I would also argue that many others in the wider world agree with this, I don’t know many people who would describe Corbyn and McDonell as centre left like the comment above.

Ah yes. It was molgrips suggested the SNP were centrist and that lots of English voters would have opted for their sort of policies. It’s probably true that you’d see the SNP as pretty Left then.

https://www.politicalcompass.org/uk2019

Apologies for the muddle then Tom

You’d be perfectly happy with the UK as the 51st state of the USEUSSR then? Or for your kids to be brought up speaking Chinese German instead of English? How about them being conscripted into an Russian EU army?

Sounds kinda ridiculous when you say it like that, doesn’t it?

I’d say Molgrips is on the same page, internationally speaking but just has a different idea about how to go about it. And that’s okay.

You want to go independent and then become part of a larger EU. That’s okay too.

I’m trying to find the common ground here, it’s too easy to just attack the bits you don’t agree with whilst ignoring the bits you do.

And Joe, absolutely agree with you, there are plenty of bawbags in this country but it’s just easier to attack the bawbags with the other colour of football top on. And there are more than a few folk in the movement itself with problematic attitudes towards those of differing political views (Tories!!!!!11!!!1!ONE!) and the voting patterns rest of the UK (I’m alright Jock) that give cause for concern.

And who the hell has even heard of Smeagle the Gael or whatever they’re called beyond a few folk that like to use them as a stick to beat rallys with? I’m not surprised people put up with them as I couldn’t name a person that has heard of them. That said, more people should know about them.

Sounds kinda ridiculous when you say it like that, doesn’t it?

EUSSR? EU Army? Yes, you are right. It does sound ridiculous.

You’d be perfectly happy with the UK as the 51st state of the US then? Or for your kids to be brought up speaking Chinese instead of English? How about them being conscripted into a Russian army?

Wot?

EUSSR? EU Army? Yes, you are right. It does sound ridiculous.

Exactly as ridiculous as your original quote. Don’t put words in peoples mouths, I knew what he meant and I’m sure you did too.

Tom Zesty

…Have some of you actually met any Scottish or English Tories? I’m tired of being described as racist, sexist, nationalist and unkind. Im not.

I know quite a few Tories. Nice people socially.

So it completely flummoxes me how they can support a party whose policies have killed so many of our weak and vulnerable population. I hope it’s incompetence rather than active malice – although these days I hae ma doots.

But either way, a party that’s killing so many of our citizens is not one I want controlling my country.

I’m sure you’re a nice guy too, but how do you square that with your conscience?

But either way, a party that’s killing so many of our citizens is not one I want controlling my country.

I’ll reiterate my dislike for the Tory party, however id like to see some evidence to back up this fairly bold claim! Has there been a rise in mortality within the poorest of society under the Tory government? Feel free to correct me if im wrong but this sounds like nationalist nonsense to me.

The healthcare system is a bit shit..but then again the snp have to take a fair share of the blame for that fiasco as well.

yes TPbiker there has been people dying because of benefit sanctions. 10 000 UK wide extra deaths a year is a conservative (sic) estimate

Then there are those who die because of cuts in healthcare either waiting for treatments or who are failed by poor mental health provisions

Its grotesque and abhorrent and shows how little value the tories put on poor peoples lives.

81,000 people died in just three years because of benefit cuts and sanctions

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/aug/27/death-britains-benefits-system-fit-for-work-safety-net

Its grotesque and abhorrent and shows how little value the tories put on poor peoples lives.

81,000 people died in just three years because of benefit cuts and sanctions

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/aug/27/death-britains-benefits-system-fit-for-work-safety-net

TJ
Not posting to defend the Tories or the benefit system but those articles are wrong and have been debunked.It isn’t just the right wing press that make things up or don’t check their facts properly.

yes TPbiker there has been people dying because of benefit sanctions. 10 000 UK wide extra deaths a year is a conservative (sic) estimate

Then there are those who die because of cuts in healthcare either waiting for treatments or who are failed by poor mental health provisions

Its grotesque and abhorrent and shows how little value the tories put on poor peoples lives.

81,000 people died in just three years because of benefit cuts and sanctions

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/aug/27/death-britains-benefits-system-fit-for-work-safety-net

Seems a bit overly sensationalist tbh, the claim of ‘killing’ has no evidence.

DWP does not hold information on the reason for death, therefore no causal effect between the WCA decision and the number of people who died within a year of that decision should be assumed from these figures.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/459106/mortality-statistics-esa-ib-sda.pdf

, I don’t know many people who would describe Corbyn and McDonell as centre left like the comment above.

I’ve only heard one person describe them as such, tj.

taxi25

Member
, I don’t know many people who would describe Corbyn and McDonell as centre left like the comment above.

I’ve only heard one person describe them as such, tj.

They are nowhere near far left. A bit left of left of centre is probably about right.

Unless we are describing the labour party that initiated the NHS as far left? Cause that’s the era they largely take their cue from. They tell you as much, John McDonald in particular.

The demonisation of Corbyn and his politics is getting a bit ridiculous tbh.

I’ve been listening to LBC for the last few days and it’s a hoot. Giving many reasons for Corbyns failure. Obrien had a cracker, my favourite bigging up some 32 year that was upset Corbyn went to a few sinn fein do’s and meetings in the 80s and cause he stays in birmingham and they’ve never caught the real pub bombers from the 70s.. I mean mon to buggery….

All that with a straight face and no-one mentions the elephant in the room that the tories were in government with the blinking DUP for the last couple of years! 😆

Ultimately, the election was about personalities, Corbyn was a wet sponge, Johnson had at least some mass appeal and like-ability about him..

Tbh, I’m pretty certain a large element of this election was decided who’d you rather go for a pint with! 😆

Aw aye, and there was Get Brexit done. Get Brexit done. Get Brexit done. Get Brexit done. Get Brexit done. Get Brexit done. Get Brexit done. Get Brexit done. Get Brexit done!!!! 😆