Pulled over for my actions after driver that pulled out on me from a slip road..

Indicating.. I can think of one scenario where not indicating is the best choice for all concerned, because it happened to me a few weeks ago:

I’m travelling along a (national speed limit) dual carriageway. The road is quiet, I’m in the first (left) lane of two, doing something close to the speed limit (say, 65 mph).

There’s a roundabout coming up, and I’ll be turning right. Looking in my mirrors, there’s a car in lane 2 (fast lane, overtaking lane, call it what you will), gaining ground on me fairly fast. Given my speed, and the way he’s gaining ground on me, he’s speeding, maybe doing 80, maybe 90. There’s plenty of time / distance before the roundabout, and he’ll catch up with me, at current speeds, before then. I have two choices now, given that I want to be in the right hand lane to turn right at the roundabout, and I want to make that lane change in the next few hundred yards if possible:

1) Indicate right. I don’t know whether the guy in lane two, when he sees this, will slow down so I can change lanes in front of him, speed up (or maintain current speed) to get past me before I complete the manoeuvre. Similarly, the other guy seeing my indicator, won’t know whether I’ve seen him and intend to change lanes after he passes me, or has seen him but intends to pull out anyway (being arsey because he;s speeding, or just because some people drive like that), or hasn’t seen him and may change lanes at any moment. In this situation you can end up getting ever closer to the roundabout with both of us slowing in our respective lanes, unsure about the intentions of the other guy. He flashes his headlights, is that to say “come on out” or “I’m here, don’t pull out in front of me”? I don’t know…

2) Hold off on the indicator, let Captain Speedy sail past, then (indicate and) change lanes once he’s past me. He goes on his merry way without having to second guess my plans, I’m able to complete my manoeuvre without worrying about what he’s going to do, everyone’s happy.

I went for option (2). Admittedly there was no other traffic about, and it might not be so clear cut a decision if there was loads of traffic.

So, yes, there are times when NOT indicating might be the best course of action, but when, like the OP, you’re pulling back into lane 1 from lane 2, in traffic, with someone who’s just joined accelerating in lane 1 just behind isn’t one of them.

how does the following driver know that your indication means that you’re only pulling back in and not that you’re about to slow right down

Is that a serious question?

you should have been in the LH lane a long time ago if your turning into your drive and you certainly shouldnt be indicating that manuver from the outside lane.

teamhurtmore – Member
Just confirming what dear late father said to me, and what I pass on to my kids….”assume everyone else on the road is an idiot.”

If I saw a driver making a signal that I didn’t see a need for, I’d start wondering WTF they were going to do next

When STW is good, it’s very very good.

When it’s not, it’s this.

I take it we’re not talking motorways/dc any more ?

Don’t you get pedestrians and cycles on dual carriageway where you drive?

Drac, the serious question is – If I see a car overtake me and when well ahead of me change lanes to the inside, I think “that car’s finished it’s overtake”. How would it have helped me if it had indicated first ?
(at the very least I’d think that any indication may be for somebody else’s benefit – but I can’t see them and that might make me start to wonder who/where they are. How does that aid my concentration ?)

If I see a car overtake me and when well ahead of me change lanes to the inside, I think “that car’s finished it’s overtake”. How would it have helped me if it had indicated first ?

Because you knew before it made it’s move what it was going to do as it signalled. This would allow you to think right that car is going to move in, is it going to cause me a hazard and do I need to do anything. Pretty simple really.

Don’t you get pedestrians and cycles on dual carriageway where you drive?

Not in situations that’d be relevant to this discussion, no:

If we’re on a non-urban 60+ mph DC with defined entry and exit slips (like the one in the OP) I don’t see how my indication would help a pedestrian – If they see me, they’ll not be on the road at all, whether or not I’m indicating. If they don’t see me, indicating is of no help either.
If there’s a bike then we have to assume I’m ahead of it (unless it’s one of the very few that use mirrors). If that’s the case then we’re back to me being faster than it and already being safely ahead (unless I’ve dangerously cut him up) so indication is of no use to him there either

that might make me start to wonder who/where they are.

If you’re as awesomely observant as you’re trolling making yourself out to be, you’d be aware of who else is around and realise that he’s just signalling his intention to move to the left.

If there’s a bike then we have to assume I’m ahead of it (unless it’s one of the very few that use mirrors).

I have a head that pivots.

When STW is good, it’s very very good.

When it’s not, it’s this

hmmm – can we make a photoshop challenge out of this then I wonder…

Drac, the serious question is – If I see a car overtake me and when well ahead of me change lanes to the inside, I think “that car’s finished it’s overtake”. How would it have helped me if it had indicated first ?
(at the very least I’d think that any indication may be for somebody else’s benefit – but I can’t see them and that might make me start to wonder who/where they are. How does that aid my concentration ?)

Or you could think, “now theres a courteous road user who like to tell people what he’s intending to do”

Obviously on an empty motorway where you are doing 60 and he’s doing 80 things might be different but in normal traffic it nice to let people know that you’re pulling back in.

This would allow you to think right that car is going to move in, is it going to cause me a hazard and do I need to do anything

That car well in front of me is moving faster than me and I’ve just seen it move into an empty lane (I know this as I am looking at it). Other than unforeseeable events, I don’t need to take ANY action at all.
Also pretty simple really.

Also pretty simple really.

It’s not though is it? You’re describing increasingly specific events that may or may not benefit indicating. Keep going. The sub-set will keep decreasing in size…down to you being bewildered behind the wheel about who other than you might be the receiver of the other driver’s indication. And if you’re that bewildered, that easily, then should you be there at all?

I have a head that pivots.

and on a 60+ DC, have you ever looked back, seen a car indicating and taken some kind of action when you wouldn’t have done so had the car NOT been indicating ? (seeing the vehicle coming towards you dangerously is not acceptable – that would apply whether or not it was indicating)

edlong – what you did there was follow MSM.

that is you checked your mirrors – is it safe to manuver – oh no its not ill wait.

then once it was clear in your mirrors – you signaled and you manuvered.

signaling doesnt absolve you of all right to check the way is clear – nor does signalling mean speedy fred must slow down to allow you to move into his path.

and on a 60+ DC, have you ever looked back, seen a car indicating and taken some kind of action when you wouldn’t have done so had the car NOT been indicating

Well it would mean I was aware that it was now moving into the lane I was in or intending to do so would have to be more cautious.

Blimey….some bored people on this thread!

Don’t you have any work to do?? 😐

I generally go for “if I can see another road user, indicate, if not, then maybe I don’t need to”. If it’s a big RAB where I’m turning right then there might be someone on the other side of the RAB who I can’t see yet, so when I get to where I can see them, the indicator will be useful. Likewise, someone might approach a junction and be unsure as to my intentions because I’m not indicating.

As for edlong’s example of when it’s better NOT to indicate….

He still indicated. Did exactly what I would do tbh, but still indicated. It’s just using the indicator at a sensible time, by anticipating, being aware of what is going on around the car, then doing mirror-signal-manouvre when safe.

Edit:

and on a 60+ DC, have you ever looked back, seen a car indicating and taken some kind of action when you wouldn’t have done so had the car NOT been indicating

Yes, at least twice. I’m in lane 3, just passed a car in lane 2. I check my mirrors, look over my left shoulder as I’m about to put my indicator on. I see a pickup/lorry level with me in lane 1 start to indicate, it then obviously moves out to lane 2. If it hadn’t indicated/I hadn’t looked to the left then we would have been going for the same bit of road at the same time.

Not that this is relevant to the OP. He seemed to be punishing the other driver for what he’d done. That’s not his job. Cutting people up, with or without indicating, is daft, whether you’re teaching them a lesson for ‘not driving properly’ or not.

Don’t you have any work to do??

No, don’t you?

Don’t you have any work to do??

I’m on holiday this week but just about to pop out and get some bits for the shepherds pie.

DD, I think my position has been consistent and was initially in response to people suggesting that ALL manoeuvres MUST be indicated, but then people began presenting ME with increasingly specific events:

I tend not to indicate back in if I’m going into the left lane and moving faster than the vehicle I’ve overtaken. I don’t slam my way in just after passing, so they don’t need to know what I’m intending to do – I’m ahead of them and moving away so they are in no danger of needing to react to my action. If I’m merging into traffic moving at the same speed as me then of course I’d have to

Doesn’t necessarily help though – you have to consider why indication is made. As has been said, if you’re 100 yards ahead of me and pulling away, I don’t need to know that you’re moving into my lane and in 5 seconds you’ll be 150 yards ahead but in the same lane. If there’s nobody ahead of you either, then there’s nobody who’ll be helped by your indication. You could even argue that superfluous information can only distract other drivers (if it achieves anything)

I stand by both the above – what do you think is wrong with them ?

Well it would mean I was aware that it was now moving into the lane I was in or intending to do so would have to be more cautious.

So this hasn’t happened ? or if it has, in what way were you more cautious ? I look back mostly when I hear an approaching vehicle and rarely when it’s quiet, so I’d use the visual cues of the actual movement of the vehicle (I guess I’ll be slaughtered by a Prius one day 🙁 )

So this hasn’t happened ?

I can’t recall every incident I’ve encountered on the roads.

Any one’ll do 😀

I stand by both the above – what do you think is wrong with them ?

Well, they’re quite specific and far removed from the realities of most folks’ driving on crowded rush-two-hour DC/MWays and seemed to be created by you to support the patronising comment that indicating by default was for those who aren’t aware of what’s going on around them. Also, you ought to be checking your rear view mirror a bit more than “rarely”, even when it’s quiet.

EDIT: What I’m trying to say is that we could all make up specific situations where indication isn’t absolutely necessary – I can think right now of a few situations where I might not bother indicating myself, but given the general level of indicating I see on the motorway these days, I’d rather everyone indicated by default when it’s busy rather than not bothering convinced of and by their own awesomeness (present company excepted of course), that everybody else can guess what they’re up to.

so I’d use the visual cues of the actual movement of the vehicle

I use both movement and indications.

I could make up an example to try and justify it if you like but either way indicators are their to show your intensions to other roads uses as of yet no one can read minds.

– even hypothetically; if you were that worried I assume you’d want to continue watching this suspect car closely so you’re then riding along a DC for 10-15 seconds while looking over your shoulder waiting to see if it does something dodgy ?

I could make up an example to try and justify it if you like but either way indicators are their to show your intensions to other roads uses as of yet no one can read minds.

Yeh, all I’m saying is that it’s not always necessary to show your intentions – if nobody will act upon them in any forseeable situation

Yeh, all I’m saying is that it’s not always necessary to show your intentions

Can you demonstrate an example where it is discourteous or unsafe to do so?

DD:

those people who think that merely indicating gives them carte blanche to make whatever manoeuvre they fancy or, even better, those who start to indicate whilst (or even after ) they start to move

granted, it’s actually the manoeuvre that’s discourteous or unsafe but it’s the indicator that “validates” it

– or you can have my slighly hypothetical / tongue in cheek (i did acknowledge that when I posted it initially) offering of superfluous information never being useful and just possibly distracting

it’s actually the manoeuvre that’s discourteous

The salient part of the sentence. Therefore, indicating in this case isn’t unsafe or discourteous. In fact, at least it would give you an idea of what a stupid manoeuvre (why does it take me two or three attempts to type that bloody word?!?) the arsehole in question is about to execute. 🙂

superfluous information

There’s also a hypothetical argument that information relating to an event or action happening close to you is never superfluous (but I’d concede we’d be heading down a philospohical argument there, and we’ve already digressed from the frankly PISS-BOILING ACTIONS of the OP that have made me want to leave my darkened bedroom and KILL someone. 😀 )

– or you can have my slighly hypothetical / tongue in cheek (i did acknowledge that when I posted it initially) offering of superfluous information never being useful and just possibly distracting

I’d say it would have to 99% tongue in cheek, rather than just slightly.

You’re in the middle of a group of three cars driving along a quiet Mway in lane 1. Mr Driving God is ‘making progress’, on a ‘determined drive’ or whatever he wants to call it in lane 1 behind you. He indicates, moves out to lane 2. He passes you, indicates left when he’s at least a couple of seconds ahead of you and the car ahead of you. Then moves left into lane 1.

How on earth is that confusing, dangerous or discourteous?! It might not be a lifesaving use of the indicators (like a left turning lorry), but (unlike on a bike) it’s absolutely no effort or risk to indicate, so why not follow the highway code, MSM, show what you’re doing? Just say “I CBA sometimes, so I don’t bother when I don’t bother when I think I can get away with it”. Stop dressing it up as some kind of superior driving skill.

You’re in the middle of a group of three cars driving along a quiet Mway in lane 1. Mr Driving God is ‘making progress’, on a ‘determined drive’ or whatever he wants to call it in lane 1 behind you. He indicates, moves out to lane 2. He passes you, indicates left when he’s at least a couple of seconds ahead of you and the car ahead of you. Then moves left into lane 1.

How on earth does that confer clarity, safety or courtesy ?! Stop dressing it up as if it did.

If you do it when there’s no need, are you still an arse if you begin the manoeuvre without waiting long enough for everyone to see the indication first and plan ahead ?

(I’m just about to go for a poo – I know you didn’t need to know, but, y’know …)

Oh, and Darcy – That’s close to you. Oh yes; so very, very close !! 💡 <– and that’s a goatse just for you )

I do so love a good driving thread, there’s almost as much ignorant bobbins spouted as there is on religion threads. Let’s deal with this indication business first.

New drivers are taught that they must always signal before a manoeuvre. We all remember mirror-signal-manoeuvre, yes? The reasons for this are many and should be obvious; you’re learning a new skill and trying to develop automatic responses, your observation might not be up to snuff yet, you need the process to be as simple as possible so it’s easier to learn, and so on.

(Based on personal experience) in further training, you’re taught that this isn’t always necessary. As an “advanced” driver, you’re expected to make more complicated decisions and take more into account rather than just follow the basics by rote. For example, in order to pass the basic driving test, you need to be able to choose the correct lane; with advanced driving techniques you’re encouraged to think about whereabouts in that lane you’re supposed to be, moving around within that lane to gain a better vantage point on the road ahead (eg, moving left on a right-hand bend to see further round).

As you improve your driving, you’re expected to be capable of assessing when indication isn’t necessary. I’m not wholly sure personally what this gains other than “you don’t need to so why would you?” but that’s what’s taught. Nonetheless, I fail to see why this is even worthy of argument; side A says there’s no point in doing it, side B says there’s nothing gained by not doing it so you might as well, the fact of the matter is that it simply doesn’t make a fig of difference either way. Both sides are correct, you might as well be arguing about which colour of charging cable you should use for an iPhone as you were told to always use white ones. Daft.

lets refer back to the OP – should he have indicated – even if he is magical mystery driver trained.

No, he shouldn’t have indicated

your right – had he checked his mirror – he would have noted there was a car advancing and would be occupying the space he wanted to occupy if he manovered.

there’s nothing on my right – it’s safe for me to pull out 😉

In the specific case of the OP, I’d say he should have indicated.

Under normal circumstances, yes, he shouldn’t have indicated. Or, rather, there’d be no point in him indicating so it doesn’t really matter whether he does or not. In this specific situation, where he’s planning on moving in front of a vehicle moving faster than he is (which I’ll get to in a bit), he should have indicated IMO. It’s an atypical situation.

One of them tells me that I was ‘millimeters’ from the front of the guys car when I pulled back in

Well there you go, in the opinion of the Police you were driving very dangerously, regardless of the right of wrongs of what the other driver did.