Private school vs state school

If “no” mike, how can you argue that only one is “entirely unavailable.” Perhaps you missed a trick?

Grum – Shylock was making the point that Jews are no less real that Christians in the famous court scene. Given the arguments that some peoples’s experiences are unreal, then I would suggest that the quote is highly relevant here.

Grum – I don’t know the answer to the % who pay no fees at all. It is clearly much less that 1/3. Typically 10-30% of total, if my memory is correct. So if the fees were 12k say, then that is broadly the same as a new MTB a year. Which is the better investment?

Blimey that coffee break went on a bit. Better get back to work now. Idle hands and all that….

So if the fees were 12k say, then that is broadly the same as a new MTB a year.

Can you start paying for my bikes please? 😯

Nah, I haven’t treated myself to one for 7 years!!!

If “no” mike, how can you argue that only one is “entirely unavailable.” Perhaps you missed a trick?

We can’t afford the fees, so why apply?

I also don’t think she’d benefit from going there.

Well unfortunately it would appear this thread has taken it’s predictable course. Thanks to those who contributed a view/opinion/experience whilst respecting other peoples views/experiences/opinions without the need to try to prove them wrong.

You’re welcome comrade 😀

THM’s point about exclusion was very neat because it is so often used as an “attack” line but its effect has been rather watered down with the inane arguing of the point. I used “ideological” for similar reasons, but sadly no one picked me up on it!

Clearly you are unlikely to come across kids from extreme poverty at a private school, although there are exceptions. A friend of mine’s child was at boarding school with a child who had been saved from living on the streets of Kolkota/Calcutta. He probably knows more about extreme poverty than anyone on here. That is without doubt an exception. However, there are plenty of state schools in affluent areas where you are unlikely to encounter it too. Is that wrong as well?

As I noted earlier, I went to a boarding school many years ago. Whilst clearly all the kids came from relatively affluent homes, I was at school with black, indian and chinese kids which I certainly wouldn’t have been if I had gone to the local state school in rural Hampshire. The point being some state schools are just as sheltered as private ones.

When talking about the standards of teaching in private schools, you have to remember that there is no statutory requirement for those who teach there to be qualified teachers, unlike in state schools. Also all the research that has ever been done shows clearly that once all factors (e.g. wealth, background) have been allowed for that the state education system provides the better education than does the private.

Of course none of that is actually of that much relevance as it is well known that the biggest single influence on an childs eductional achievement is the attitude of the parents.

Oh and CFH, have a word with yourself!

Of course none of that is actually of that much relevance as it is well known that the biggest single influence on an childs eductional achievement is the attitude of the parents.

And that of the childs peer group.

mefty – Member
THM’s point about exclusion was very neat

Why thank you..

mefty – Member
but sadly no one picked me up on it!

“They” are very selective! 😉 keep trying and you may be included with time and effort!!

the point being that some state schools are just as sheltered

+1

Of course none of that is actually of that much relevance as it is well known that the biggest single influence on an childs eductional achievement is the attitude of the parents.

+ 100

There are two level at which we can look at this:

At an individual level, the decision to apply to a particular school will depend upon many factors. For some kids, private will be a benefit and cost won’t be an issue. Personally, I suspect that many people overestimate the benefits of a private education; as gonefishin says, research shows this.

At a society level, we have a multi-tier education system and it would almost certainly be better for society as a whole if we didn’t.

it would almost certainly be better for society as a whole if we didn’t.

^^This, although the problem being that those who benefit see no reason to change.

They may be on the continuum of sheltered or exclusive but, as they do not select on ability [ generally] or wealth, they can never be as exclusive
How can fee charging aptitude testing schools not have less of a cross section of society than non fee paying non aptitude testing schools? { attempting to pick outliers is not helpful IMHO}
It is clearly a skewed sample of the bright and the able to pay .

So where do you end up if you are thick with rich parents?

I’m trying to think of backgrounds of our ex-students: I don’t think we’ve had a billionaire’s child, but we have had millionaires’ kids.

So where do you end up if you are thick with rich parents?

Cambridge

That is without doubt an exception. However, there are plenty of state schools in affluent areas where you are
unlikely to encounter it too. Is that wrong as well?

My school was in an affluent area but there was still a few local council estates, poorer tenant farmers, and kids from local towns etc.

As I noted earlier, I went to a boarding school many years ago. Whilst clearly all the kids came from relatively affluent homes, I was at school with black, indian and chinese kids which I certainly wouldn’t have been if I had gone to the local state school in rural Hampshire. The point being some state schools are just as sheltered as private ones.

This is a fair point. My school was very white. Although I’m not sure the kind of kids who get sent to foreign boarding school are massively representative of life for most people in India or China either. 😉

jam bo – Member

So where do you end up if you are thick with rich parents?

In the Cabinet, berating people who didn’t enjoy your feather-bedded upbringing and marriage into the landed gentry for not pulling themselves up by their bootstraps, like you did.

Many private schools, and I imagine increasingly more as time goes on, are not really academically selective.

miketually – Member
So where do you end up if you are thick with rich parents?
Cambridge

😆

One of the many private schools that cater for that demographic…

So where do you end up if you are thick with rich parents?

35 years ago, the kids from my junior/prep school who went to the schools with the lowest entry requirements went to Blundell’s, Gordonstoun (although the kids who went there were very bright but went for family reasons) and Bloxham. I’m sure there were others with lower entrance requirements at the time and certainly things will have changed in the intervening years, but that is what I recall from a small and very old sample.

miketually – Member
There are two level at which we can look at this:

At an individual level, the decision to apply to a particular school will depend upon many factors. For some kids, private will be a benefit and cost won’t be an issue. Personally, I suspect that many people overestimate the benefits of a private education; as gonefishin says, research shows this.

At a society level, we have a multi-tier education system and it would almost certainly be better for society as a whole if we didn’t.

+1 on that (with a slight caveat on the benefits bit unless you mean purely academic)

Thing is as a parent, given the opportunity (eg the money or if are academic enough to get scholarships) to send my kids to good private schools I probably would, at least assuming that I reckoned it was right for them. Largely though based on my own experiences of having gone through the state system until early in secondary school, being bored out of my brains a lot of the time (despite my secondary supposedly being a good one) and then finding the private school that I was lucky enough to go to later on was brilliant and I loved it.

Maybe things have got better. I really hope so as my kids will probably being going the state route but we’re in the process of moving somewhere that has good state secondary schools. We’re lucky to be able to afford to do that but fundamentally it’s no different to paying for private education isn’t it – eg it’s unfair.

But then I’m not the type who has strong convictions meaning that I won’t send my kids to private school even though I’d rather that there was no need for them.

I think as a parent, you always want the best for your kid, or at least you should.

If a parent can afford (either by wealth or by sacrifice) to send their kid to private school as they feel it will give their kid a better chance, why shouldn’t they?

And if as has been said on here, one person has made sacrifices to send their kid to a better school, why don’t others do the same rather than complaining about a tiered system? You aren’t going to invert the pyramid in your lifetime so work it.

why don’t others do the same rather than complaining about a tiered system

That’s a bit of a silly statement given that a large part of the population could never even dream of affording the fees.

I think as a parent, you always want the best for your kid, or at least you should.

I think that’s how most people think. Others live by their convictions and are willing to stick to that even if it maybe impacts negatively on their kids (and I appreciate that’s a VERY subjective statement but as most people we’re affected by our own experiences and I’m pretty sure I would have been negatively affected by staying in the state system compared to not). In many ways I do admire people with that level of conviction.

lapierrelady – Member
Many private schools, and I imagine increasingly more as time goes on, are not really academically selective.

I am not really sure about that. In addition to Common Entrance, an increasing number of schools are adding their own pre-selection exams. They then are happy to kick weak performers out in order to maintain league table status with A levels. You can spend £30-90k and then be told that you son/daughter needs to consider “other options.”

Don’t trust the league tables for the full picture!

Why should multi-tier needs not be met by a multi-tier supply? I can see reason why a single tier system would create a better or more equatable result. Kids (and parents) have different needs that should be met in different ways IMO.

On the other hand, some private schools are very good at getting the best results possible for kids that aren’t so academic and there are plenty of people who will pay for Tarquin to get 3 Cs at A-level rather than three Ds.

THM – I think that is very much a South East problem, where they is a very large pool of affluent parents in their local area. Schools in less affluent areas have to offer something different to appeal to parents outside their region to survive.

I would guess that the number eligible fir free meals cannot be quantified and probably few care. The possible situations where kids might be eligible as as Dar ranging as: on full bursary as academically gifted but from a background that would make them eligible. To parents have good accountants so technically no money or assests but in order to put them through school they pay the full wack.

On the other hand, some private schools are very good at getting the best results possible for kids that aren’t so academic and there are plenty of people who will pay for Tarquin to get 3 Cs at A-level rather than three Ds

State schools are also good at doing this, but it leads to accusations of dumbing down and Michael Gove changes the goal posts.

I think as a parent, you always want the best for your kid, or at least you should.

If a parent can afford (either by wealth or by sacrifice) to send their kid to private school as they feel it will give their kid a better chance, why shouldn’t they?

And if as has been said on here, one person has made sacrifices to send their kid to a better school, why don’t others do the same rather than complaining about a tiered system?

So, anyone who could send their kids private but don’t doesn’t want the best for them?

I would guess that the number eligible fir free meals cannot be quantified and probably few care. The possible situations where kids might be eligible as as Dar ranging as: on full bursary as academically gifted but from a background that would make them eligible. To parents have good accountants so technically no money or assests but in order to put them through school they pay the full wack.

Presumably schools check financial status before doling out bursaries? If they do, and we assume anyone paying fees wouldn’t be eligible, it wouldn’t be hard to put a figure to FSM eligibility.

yes they do and well beyond current income….

State schools are also good at doing this, but it leads to accusations of dumbing down and Michael Gove changes the goal posts.

True enough no doubt but given the choice of a good teacher trying to improve the results of 30 kids or the same one trying to do the same for 15, I can see which is likely to be more successful.

I went to private school.

We smoked a lot of weed and liked to take LSD whenever anyones ‘rents went away.

I liked meeting kids from all over manchester of all different races. I didn’t like not knowing many kids locally.

My grades were ok. The teaching can’t make that much difference. I’ve got mates from private schools that are decorators and mates from the comp that run their own businesses.

I think by separating your kids from society at large you take away the need for them to learn to deal with a broad spectrum of people. Sure, They might learn some more latin without the local dickheads firing elastic bands at them but I think they miss some valuable life lessons.

I won’t be sending my kids to private school.

That seems like a very generalised view of it though.

Some private schools are horrendous for insulating kids from the real world and worse, for giving them a sense of superiority. IME it’s not the stereotypical Eton that’s bad for that (in fact, I’d say that a few high profile Etonians give the majority a very bad and undeserved name) but rather many of the other very expensive and desirable but not-quite-Eton ones that are the worst examples.

given the choice of a good teacher trying to improve the results of 30 kids or the same one trying to do the same for 15, I can see which is likely to be more successful.

The one who gains twice the experience every year of the other? 🙂

it’s not the stereotypical Eton that’s bad for that (in fact, I’d say that a few high profile Etonians give the majority a very bad and undeserved name) but rather many of the other very expensive and desirable but not-quite-Eton ones that are the worst examples.

Could well be a strange, compensatory inferior-superiority complex. I went to Durham Uni, so met some Oxbridge rejects who were particularly unpleasant in a chip-on-their-shoulder kind of way.

And I was at Bristol which in that respect was no doubt very similar (and I was a Cambridge reject as it goes. Twice 😉 )

Some private schools are horrendous for insulating kids from the real world and worse, for giving them a sense of superiority.

What no-one is willing to admit here (though I have heard others admit it) is that that sense of superiority is actually seen as a desirable trait by some and is part of the point of sending kids to private school. Teach kids that they are special and superior and to some extent that confidence becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.