Possible demise of CRC / Wiggle

Obviously it might be a bit late now, but shouldn’t it be Criggle?

@thepodge @stwhannah my sincere apologies, didn’t see it was on the front page Thursday. Sorry, I should have checked.

Sorry, I should have checked.

I think you’ll find it’s in the membership rules not to read anything but the post immediately before your own (in order to qualify for big hitter status it’s also necessary to only read part of that one and to ignore the existence of anything you’ve previously posted).

I assumed it only applied to threads but news articles seems a logical extension there of.

To be fair, Hannah posted in here saying to read ft and saying she was going on holiday so not to expect an article (whilst it was still rumours) so not an illogical jump for me to make. Anyway, ive apologised, all I can do

Anyway, ive apologised,

Reported

Like many I used to default to buying things from CRC because the prices were decent and whatever I wanted was easy to find. The new website has made it almost impossible to find anything and even if you can find the right thing, their bizarre approach to filtering/sorting/pricing display means that multiple versions of a given thing at multiple prices will be under the same listing. So you think you’ve found what you want at a good price – and it isn’t, the one at a good price is a size/type that you don’t want. It’s utterly infuriating – to the point that CRC is almost the last place I look for anything!

I do wonder how much business they’ve lost from that because I’m clearly not the only person with this issue?

So you think you’ve found what you want at a good price – and it isn’t, the one at a good price is a size/type that you don’t want…
…I do wonder how much business they’ve lost from that because I’m clearly not the only person with this issue?

It’s absolutely not a [specifically] crc problem though.

It’s been “the way” for years, even back when bricks and mortar shops were the only option sales rarely covered normal sizes or colours. Going shopping for trousers or jeans meant trying on things I knew wouldn’t fit, then ordering in a pair that might based on the waist of a pair that were knee length and a 38″ waist pair in a decent leg.
They’d take a week to turn up and be 20% more than the ones in store because they’re an imperceptibly different colour or have square not tapered pockets etc.

You still get the same thing everywhere from Amazon to Wiggle.

FWIW I hate sites that list sizes etc as different items on the site. 12 things which all look the same but when you click through this one is xs only, next one is med and so on. Usually poorly formatted for mobile viewing so you can’t tell that until you click though and meaning the listings for eg waterproof jackets aren’t two pages they’re twenty.

“It’s absolutely not a [specifically] crc problem though.”

Unless I’m imagining things, it wasn’t like this before!

Unless I’m imagining things, it wasn’t like this before!

I’m pretty sure it’s rose tinted blinkers.

The filters were there but never really worked as you describe. In stock would still show things only in stock in a size you didn’t filter by. Size filters showed everything listed in the size your want regardless of price or stock situation and so on. Clothes (shoes especially) would be listed at £cheap but then only be cheap in a size 4 or dayglo.

People moan too that sort by discount has gone but again it sorted by discount against any size and the discount is from “rrp”. However the bike industry [and a lot of others] have gone the dfs route, they show a massively over inflated rrp then discount back to vaguely realistic because people don’t buy stuff if is it’s not heavily “discounted” and it gets around pesky restrictions like those requiring you to have sold an item at a higher price for a length of time before being allowed to say they’re are on sale. (see also discount on items, you can offer a 50% off code from day one but you can’t put it on a half price sale…)

The old filter definitely worked better than the new one. In fairness to them there may be a method to their madness as Amazon and eBay have had a similar system for years. I’ll also point out that plenty of people lost their shit when STW changed their classifieds from that system to one that actually filtered stuff so clearly some folk prefer non-systems.

I’ve given up on CRC and wiggle.  The website is awful as is the delivery company.  The discount prices are nothing to do with what they were before.  The sale prices are not relevant.  Surprised no one has actually complained about it before.

Back in the early days I used to spend a lot of money with Wiggle and CRC, but nowadays they are as, if not more, expensive than other retailers.

If they do come up cheap in a google search, as stated above, it is usually an obscure size, or a ‘strange’ colour.

Deleted!

I’m not saying who it is but I’m watching to see how it plays out. Basically if their huge debt facility is pulled the house of cards falls

Going to be quite a few companies which have been heavily reliant on cheap money which are going to run into problems now. Either directly because of the increased rates or because the lenders rate the chances of them paying the higher rates as pretty low and dont extend loans.

Translation? Wtf is AstroTurfed?

Its normally used for fake “grass root” organisations. Where, normally, a company creates a pressure group pretending to be a bunch of normal people uniting together in something which just happens to favour that companies interests.
Say if the water companies set up the “wild swimmers who love dodging turds” group.

I used to spend a lot of money with Wiggle and CRC, but nowadays they are as, if not more, expensive than other retailers.

Was that not always going to be the final, inevitable, destination on a race to the bottom?

I wonder if we will see other retail/mail order cycle businesses be in difficulties in the near future? 

The  following: Leisure Lakes, Merlin, Ribble, Wheelbase, which were all privately owned ( AIUI, correct me if I’m wrong ) have all been bought out within the last 18 months or so. Perhaps the owners of said businesses decided to get out while they can…

Back on topic.

I previously have said that I didn’t see who would want to buy into brands which looked loss making in a crowded market. But now I’ve mulled it over some more and see the potential interest from the Fraser group and similar, I think it will get reincarnated as a generic outlet of mostly own brands. I suspect most of the own brands will be killed off and some kept to flog generic stuff. It’s a very crowded market out there on tight margins in good times

now for those who don’t get my point of view in these discussions it’s probably because I consider the matter purely on a viable business basis. I’m not really interested in the politics or marketing history.

I’ve got no beef with CRC Wiggle. Infact I’ve been a supplier for over a decade. I just have beef with greedy investors who destroy both their own business and businesses around them through their own lust for exponential growth.

also I’ve said before I can actually say what I think honestly because my income doesn’t rely on the bike industry. Virtually everyone else relies on being matey to get marketing or be paid for marketing.

Neil SuperstarComponents

Wiggles greatness was they just had (essentially – literally) everything, in a website UI that lent itself to ‘power buying’, free next day delivery (10 quid a year or whatever ) at a similar or slightly cheaper price than everyone else.

4 powerful things. Arguably the main thing was they just had EVERYTHING, and it was insanely convenient. People are busy, being able to go on, add what you need to a basket, one click order and it arrives tomorrow is what an awful lot of people clearly want. They were like the Amazon prime ( or old day Argos) of tri-sports equipment/ kit.

Now it’s just super annoying having to trawl round several retailers. Convenience is everything in the modern world, and I’d argue that currently there is a gap for the convenience that wiggle offered.

CRC & wiggle have been around since I’ve been cycling and they’ve had a fair bit of my money over the years.  Looking at the news it’s almost inevitable that they will go pop, in there current form at least but I just can’t get excited about it. 

On a personal level it must be terrible on the ground working there, the uncertainty and the speculation must be awful and I can only sympathise. As for the businesses themselves, its a bit mercenary but survival of the fittest. The Criggle customers will still need bike bits and hopefully their custom will go to more deserving places.

After this thread, there’s certainly some businesses won’t see my cash…

Perhaps the owners of said businesses decided to get out while they can…

Either that or the people buying them saw the pandemic boom and the cheap cash available for buying and decided it was a good investment.
Either way problematic for the company now loaded with debt which costs a tad more.
Going to be a lot of people paying the price for some risky attempts to build a business empire.

They’ve started their black friday promo early it seems. Some outstanding deals on bikes, e.g.

https://www.wiggle.com/p/nukeproof-reactor-290-factory-carbon-mountain-bike-xt-slx

https://www.wiggle.com/p/nukeproof-mega-290-elite-carbon-bike-gx-trans

Has the fire sale begun?

Personally, I like Neil’s input, it’s interesting to read and it’s got this thread firing on all cylinders.

Anyway, back on topic,  On my browser it says this forum is powered by chain reaction 😮

Right, off to read Hannahs article.

“this forum is powered by chain reaction”

A collapse of CRC / Wiggle would have many victims. It’s not good news for anyone involved in cycling in the UK in the short term.

Now it’s just super annoying having to trawl round several retailers. Convenience is everything in the modern world, and I’d argue that currently there is a gap for the convenience that wiggle offered.

I think that’s more a supply side issue though, crikey my local supermarket is the same, today no cabbage tomorrow no tomatoes etc.

There’s a lot being blamed on the new website that I suspect is not really anything to do with the new website is just the old one hid out-of-their-control problems better.

There are some significant issues with how the website change has been handled and implemented – at this point I can’t help but think it was rolled out when/as it was because they’d sunk a load of cash and simply weren’t willing or able to put in more and weren’t happy to write it off either.

They were like the Amazon prime ( or old day Argos) of tri-sports equipment/ kit.

This. Massive selection, decent price (it didn’t have to be the absolute cheapest), fast and consistent delivery. Any customer service dealing I had always went well. I liked that I could order a few bits from the same place rather than having multiple parcels making their way across the country.

Massive selection, decent price (it didn’t have to be the absolute cheapest), fast and consistent delivery

This was what CRC were good at but when Wiggle and the private equity vultures bought in, the range of products contracted and slowly they stopped being the go to online retailer. The website “upgrade” was the final nail in the coffin, other online retailers were just easier to use.

I feel bad for the staff and the suppliers who may get shafted if they collapse, whilst the ones who made the mess likely walk away unscathed.

Well, that’s the first time one of my posts has been stealthly edited by the mods.

It wasn’t even controversial, well I didn’t think so.

If you do edit someone’s post, at least have the decency to add a note to say you have done so and send me a message explaining why you’ve done it!

Crc and Wiggle have come an awfully long way since George and Janice’s son Chris and his mate Michael started selling stuff in volume with a company name made up by their daughter Lola.

Wiggle has come a long way since Harvey and Mitch made a website selling bike parts, wine and condoms.

Very sad for everybody that’s getting caught up in the fall out.

If you do edit someone’s post, at least have the decency to add a note to say you have done so and send me a message explaining why you’ve done it!

Hi, you must be new here, welcome to STW!

Well, that’s the first time one of my posts has been stealthly edited by the mods.

I was surprised at the amount of editing and deleting that goes on. And just how trivial it can be too.

They edit people’s posts?? 😲

Actually now I think about it, it does explain why it’s hard to follow some threads… I have often thought there must be bits missing but I can never find them. This explains why…

Arguably the main thing was they just had EVERYTHING, and it was insanely convenient.

This. i used to build up a big basket when i was building up a frame or servicing. Then it all became cheap tat no one else in Europe wanted so, then it was hard even to find that. 

Crc and Wiggle have come an awfully long way since George and Janice’s son Chris and his mate Michael started selling stuff in volume with a company name made up by their daughter Lola

Thats nice. Lot of bike shops round here (australia) went bust because they couldn’t compete with wiggle/crc prices. One so in Melbourne got taken down by the taxman cos they were buying shimano from crc at less than cost from the local didistributor.

Im poor, so i am guilty of contributing too., mind. 

I had a few things in my basket I was going to be buying soon and the reduced price has been removed meaning I can now get it cheaper elsewhere.
Not sure why they would do that making it less likely to sell but if they did sell it they would get more I suppose?

Thats nice. Lot of bike shops round here (australia) went bust because they couldn’t compete with wiggle/crc prices.

A mate in Australia broke his carbon road wheels last year. It was quicker and cheaper for him to order some Prime wheels from CRC than to buy from anywhere in Aus.

They arrived in about 4 days.

Obviously Prime is one of their in-house brands (I’ve got a pair, they’re excellent!) but similar wheels in Aus were considerably more expensive.

@squirelking

@honrablegeorge

Thanks for patronising me and missing the point:

I removed an item and the page refreshed with the brakes at £169.99 and £154.99.

I assume if I’d left the basket as was and paid I’d have the brakes at the original price and they would have some money in the bank. It just smacks of desperation and seems a bit underhand to me.

So if they go, then it was great while it lasted, but hey it’s capitalism.

Arguably the main thing was they just had EVERYTHING, and it was insanely convenient.

They stopped being the first place you went to, and then bought everything you needed there, a long time ago. The last thing I bought from them was a bargain XO1 mech that was so cheap it was impossible to resist, but that was also the first time in a long time I’d been to the site. I recently built a frame up, and just for fun I went to CRC and no word of a lie, they had nothing I needed or wanted, Zero, Nada, Zilch, after a while it became almost funny like they were hiding stuff or something, and it wasn’t like the build was weird or full of odd sized components, I was after standard parts, 12sp groupsets, saddles, bars, stems that sort of shit. 

Any news on the forum sponsorship?

I ordered stuff on Thursday with my vouchers and it arrived on Saturday.

Has there ever been a business improved under private equity or venture capitalists?

I am frankly amazed that the model even still exists. Take over a brand that has been built through passion, knowledge and skill. Manage the balance sheet rather than the business. Loose the essence of what made the business worth buying in the first place. Sell it on as some genetically modified abomination of what made it a good purchase in the first place. It is a model almost doomed to fail, and yet it perpetuates.

Every business has its natural size, and it’s a simple law of elasticity that nothing can expand forever. At a certain point it reaches its natural state, beyond which something snaps. Maybe Wiggle was just the right size and in just the right format when it was originally sold and there was no more growth to get without stretching it too far. Then the pandemic came along and boom followed by bust always exposes weaknesses in large fat businesses. Making money and meeting consumer demand is easy during the boom. Less so during the bust.

I genuinely struggle to understand when the model tends to destroy true value rather than enhance it, that anybody (other than another PE or VC company) would buy a business third hand from one of these crowds.

Wiggle has gone to s##t. Whatever you say about the ethics of total market domination, they achieved it originally by offering the consumer what they wanted better than the competition, in a very consumer-centric way. That, coupled with the rising market for cycling is what made them an attractive purchase in the first place. By then losing what made them great (assortment, price, ease of shopping etc), the current owners and the ones before that have basically over leveraged the business and killed the goose that was at the heart of it laying massive golden eggs.

It’s a shame for the brand, it’s a shame for the consumer, it’s a shame for their athletes, it’s a shame for the employees (those actually involved in running rather than overseeing the business – they will conveniently find a way to dodge their financial commitments and come out of this and move onto the next corpse to pick over).

But whilst there is a downside, there is also opportunity. With Evans effectively gone and Wiggle well on its way, there are still consumers out there (admittedly fewer than during the pre pandemic growth days and the pandemic explosive growth days). Those consumers will still need to be serviced and somebody will rise to fill that gap. That’s just simple market dynamics. If I was one of the competitors I would be gearing up right now to offer a service similar to Wiggle of old, and thanks to the wonders of Brexit that gives anybody based in the UK an advantage over any of the zee German sites.

In that respect, SigMa Sports have my custom any day of the week. A home grown business that started with Jason and Ian importing Campagnolo (remember them?!) in the back of their car from Belgium that has grown organically and stayed close to its roots. I have know them both and the business since the beginning and it is a great story.

So, whilst I mourn what Wiggle once was, it hasn’t been that for many years. I look forward to seeing who rises to fill the gap in the market. Tomorrow the sun will rise, we will all have enjoyed a lovely sunny (but incredibly muddy) ride today and we will all keep riding bikes and buying shiny new things for them. Just from somebody else……