Osbourne says no to currency union.

The facts, which are few, are only the ones that support your view, everything else is a deceitful or bullying politician, depending on which side you are on, with an agenda.

Indeed. The other factor is it doesn’t really matter what politicians want to do, it’s what BAE want to do that matters.

H&W has a drydock that’s plenty big enough. But I don’t know about the other facilities either.

it’s what BAE want to do that matters.

Makes potentially libellous bribery joke.

It’s okay, Junkyard, the British government would shut down any defamation action…

(might have said this earlier in the thread, not sure)

Defence contracting is pretty messy tbh. Salmond at his worst really, there obviously are grounds for concern.

But at the same time, there are some realities here. Portsmouth was already the worst place to build modern warships even before they decided to close it down (and moves are afoot to sell or lease the naval yard, so while rebooting Portsmouth is already a bad option it’s not far from becoming completely impossible) And by all accounts there’s nowhere else in the UK that can do the job.

So the UK government says T26 is the right boat for the UK, and BAE says the Clyde is the only place it makes sense to build it.

Course, anything can be overcome with the will… The rUK could blow the budget and create the capacity to build them at home. But that’d be a major financial challenge, amidst defence cuts and the other costs of relocating military assets (Trident, of course, being a big one) And we’re not talking generous timescales, these boats need to go into production within the next few years to replace the aging fleet.

A thing the Yes campaign ignores is that if the UK is buying fighting ships from abroad (the Royal Navy already imports military ships), there’s no particular reason why Scotland is the premier bidder- once you take away the home turf advantage of the design, we’re competing with French FREMM among others. Would the rUK stick with T26 at all? It’d be an embarassing climbdown on many fronts but certainly reasonable, once you cross the rubicon of ordering frontline ships from abroad why not go the whole hog?

But then of course that contradicts the Westminster position that procuring fighting ships from abroad is unthinkable, so something’s got to give. They seem quite painted into a corner.

I think a lot of people are justifiably narked at being threatened with defence job losses, when scotland already receives less than its share of defence funding, and defence contracts, and has suffered proportionally more defence job losses than the rest of the UK.

I checked the date etc when I saw this in The Herald 😆
better apart

*waiting

**still waiting

***Wanders off in dismay at failed link

Link not working sorry
heres the article

[quoteIT may be called Better Together, but the No campaign has been accused of a gaffe – after it asked an SNP minister to appear as its representative in an independence debate.

Humza Yousaf was surprised to receive the request to speak against his party’s flagship policy of Scottish independence.

The case of mistaken identity follows a difficult few weeks for Better Together.

The organisation has been accused of dogged negativity and faced complaints from pro-Union sources that it is running an uninspiring campaign. In an email from Better Together, Mr Yousaf was asked if he could speak at an event organised by BEMIS Scotland, the national umbrella body supporting the development of the ethnic minorities voluntary sector in Scotland, in August.

Mr Yousaf, the Scottish Government’s external affairs minister, accused his opponents of being “shambolic”. And he revealed that he would be taking part in the debate, organised as part of Edinburgh’s JustFestival – speaking against Better Together.

Mr Yousaf said: “With gaffes like this, it’s no wonder the No campaign are in such deep, deep trouble.

“They are a shambolic campaign who are dropping in the opinion polls – they don’t have their finger on the pulse of Scotland, and this latest blunder proves it.

“While I look forward to speaking at the event, it will not be for the No campaign, but to outline the many benefits of an independent Scotland.”

A Better Together spokesman brushed off claims of a gaffe and called on the First Minister to represent the No campaign at the debate.

be calmed pie man

Honest it does work though I was tempted and it works for me!
I have not read the article
in case it fails

http://www.heraldscotland.com/mobile/politics/referendum-news/better-together-invites-wrong-speaker.23987485

😀 yeh I had seen that.

This should also amuse you. In a cheap shot schadenfreude sort of way.

Jelly CMD

People lining up to piss on him I imagine.

Hang on, that sounds a wee bit wrong. I do not have a david cameron golden shower fetish. Not any more than normal anyway.

Maybe a little bit more than normal.

“People lining up to piss on him I imagine”
I would ,reluctantly, if he was on fire 😉

Scots only dislike Cameron because he sounds so English that you can’t bare it. What has Cameron done to this country compared to Gordon Brown and Tony Blair? I am surprised you can even stand up with such a big chip on your shoulders.

Ah, is there a thing where you can’t dislike Cameron without loving Brown and Blair? I didn’t realise.

Fnf Could it be I dislike Mr Cameron because of coalition policies?

Scots you say…… 😉

I do however quite like chips.

Scots only dislike Cameron because he sounds so English that you can’t bare it. What has Cameron done to this country compared to Gordon Brown and Tony Blair?

You completely undermine your own argument within two sentences. Tony Blair sounds every bit as English as David Cameron.

Sorry, have missed this for a few days, so playing catch up.

except a little earlier in the same post

Just one example – the UK has food and children’s clothes zero VAT rated, new member states are not allowed to have food and children’s clothes zero VAT rated, but the UK as an existing member state is allowed.

So there will be a significant difference – either food and children’s clothing will get a lot more expensive or iS won’t be a member of the EU.

Seems reasonable

http://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/referendum-news/senior-tories-back-us-plan-for-trident-if-scots-vote-yes.24004574

Might even get them to refit the carriers as well.

So there will be a significant difference…..

Of course there won’t be a significant difference, as I said, “nothing would feel or be noticeably different”.

OK, there might be 5% VAT on food and children’s clothing (I don’t know where you get “a lot more expensive” from) so what? In the way Scotland feels, it won’t be different.

When this lot that you voted for bumped up VAT to 20% did Britain feel noticeably different ? Did the new rate of 20% change Britain significantly ? Of course not.

As I said both the Yes camp and some within the No camp are claiming that “independence” will bring huge changes to Scotland. IMO that’s false and there is no credible evidence to back it up. Gradually over a period of time Scotland might become less wealthy but I doubt whether it will be very noticeably. How many people have noticed that wages, as percentage of GDP, have fallen significantly in the last 30 odd years ?

Might even get them to refit the carriers as well.

Absolutely. Bath Iron Works could easily handle the carriers, and I’m sure there are other US yards who could do it.

ernie, I think changes will be vast, and not for the better, you disagree yet fall generally on the no side. If changes are so small why do you reckon it really matters which way Scotland votes?

I think long term it will be bad for both Scotland and the rest of the UK. But I don’t think it will create anything like the upheavals some are suggesting, why would it ? Scotland will have the same economic model as now, real power will be in the same hands as it is now, nothing much will be that different. Obviously Scotland will lose some of the influence it has at the moment, and it will be competing with a large neighbour which will have no responsibility towards it.

The case for Scotland going its own separate way hasn’t been made imo, and the Yes argument appears to be based on nothing much more than petty chauvinism. More true patriotism and less petty chauvinism, is what I would suggest.

I certainly don’t think the yes campaign is indulging in “petty chauvinism” no one as far as I know has claimed any form of superiority.

The case for Scotland going its own separate way hasn’t been made imo, and the Yes argument appears to be based on nothing much more than petty chauvinism. More true patriotism and less petty chauvinism, is what I would suggest.

Can you give some examples?

bencooper – Member

Can you give some examples?

What do you want examples for ?

I said : The case for Scotland going its own separate way hasn’t been made imo, and the Yes argument appears to be based on nothing much more than petty chauvinism. More true patriotism and less petty chauvinism, is what I would suggest.

If you don’t agree with me that’s OK.

Ah, okay, you’re just making a pronouncement without evidence.

Can tell you’re a Better Together supporter 😀

Call it a pronouncement if you want, athgray asked me a specific question concerning my opinion and I gave him an answer.

Why do you think it might be important for me to attempt to influence your opinion ?

After 106 pages I’ve come to the conclusion that nothing is likely to change your mind. Are you suggesting that I might have made a miscalculation ?

I’m just curious what examples of petty chauvinism you’ve seen in the Yes campaign. If you can’t think of any, that’s okay..

I didn’t say I couldn’t think of any, I’m just not interested in giving you any.

I think it would be reasonable to assume that whatever examples I might give you they will be completely unsatisfactory to you. So I’m not really interested wasting my time, although apparently you want to waste your time disagreeing with me.

EDIT : Just to clarify – it’s the lack of a credible argument and instead in its place the strong dependency on emotional appeal which has led me to this conclusion. I’ve seen it right through this thread.

You have an interesting discussion style.

You mean like preferring to focus on an exchange of opinions and ideas while at the same time ignoring pointless arguing ?

Everyone has their own opinions often as the result of a lifetime of experience, they are unlikely to change them because of a single argument/debate. So unless you need to convince yourself of the virtue of your own argument, then arguing is fairly pointless other than to offer alternative suggestions.

You made a statement, I asked you for some examples of what you said, this seems to have upset you.

If you want to make statements that you can’t or won’t back up with evidence, that’s entirely your choice, it’s just not a very effective way to convince people.

I’m not arguing with you, I’m honestly interested in why you think the Yes campaign is based on petty chauvinism.

Anyhow, there’s a new poll out – ICM for the Scotsman:

http://m.scotsman.com/news/martin-boon-a-pollster-entering-uncharted-waters-1-3382088

Excluding undecideds, it puts Yes on 48%.

this seems to have upset you.

What a strange conclusion to come to 🙂

If you want to make statements that you can’t or won’t back up with evidence, that’s entirely your choice, it’s just not a very effective way to convince people.

Well that’s the point – I’m not trying to convince you. I’ve already pointed out that if you don’t agree with my opinion that’s OK.

Excluding undecideds, it puts Yes on 48%.

In other words less than half of Scots. Why is it that with less than 6 months to the historical vote the majority of Scots still remain unconvinced ? I still think the Yes camp will probably win, but only just.

I can’t see how the overwhelming majority of Scots, throughout the campaign, wouldn’t be supporting Yes if the Yes camp was providing a credible argument.

The world according to Ben Cooper

If something very slightly supports the yes campaign it is gospel. If it doesn’t and is backed up by rock solid facts I will pretend that it does back up the yes campaign anyway by stating my personal opinion as a fact. I will also add a smiley at the end of my statement because the yes campaign is the positive and happy campaign 🙂 😀 😆 Then I will raise a glass with Mrs Cooper to an independent Scotland.

Huh, I’m a minority in a minority.