Osbourne says no to currency union.

oldbloke – Member
You can take it as an anti-Scottish viewpoint of the English if you like Ben, but there are plenty of us inside the country who don’t think the numbers and policies add up.

Don’t you see any contradiction?

“Yes of course Scotland can go it alone” Then saying “the numbers don’t match up”…

Pointing this out is apparently anti english? 😐

If I thought for a minute that the driving factor behind IS was anti Englishness, I wouldn’t vote for it.

You can take it as an anti-Scottish viewpoint of the English if you like Ben, but there are plenty of us inside the country who don’t think the numbers and policies add up.

This isn’t about Scottish vs English. And we’re not voting for a policy, we’re voting for the ability to decide our own policies.

“Yes of course Scotland can go it alone” Then saying “the number don’t match up” suggests that we can’t!

Pointing this out is apparently anti english?
Ben’s quote was clearly directed at those outside Scotland.

Whether or not we can go it alone and whether the numbers add up or not are two different issues.

The ability to go it alone does not in any way define the quality of life we’d have. Hell, even Zimbabwe can go it alone.

But the numbers adding up or not is very much about whether or not the vision presented by the Scottish Government in the white paper is deliverable. It has had so many holes shot in it since the day of publication that it clearly isn’t.

And before you say again “we’re not always destined to have the SNP in charge” that’s the manifesto of the guys doing the negotiating for the structure of independence. They will have more impact on the future of the country through that process than the generation of governments which follow.

Ben’s quote was clearly directed at those outside Scotland.

My quote was about the Westminster elite of whatever nationality – England has it worse, you’re not even trusted with your own parliament (though when asked you didn’t want one).

http://www.oilandgaspeople.com/news/1039/scottish-west-coast-untapped-oil-and-gas-reserves-worth-trillions/

Another blow for the Yes vote there

A report by a recruitment agency?

If you really want to think about the future of a Scottish economy, think beyond oil, maybe even forget about it, even salmond says its just a bonus and not a backbone of an economy.

England has it worse, you’re not even trusted with your own parliament (though when asked you didn’t want one).

Typical Anglo-centricism: Why would we want a national parliament, we’ve already got one!

And we’re not voting for a policy, we’re voting for the ability to decide our own policies.

This can be repeated but it is simply untrue. You have two options

(1) greater power to implement policies – NO (ironically)
(2) hand over all major policy instruments to a foreign county – YES (again ironically)

There is a third one of course – your aspiration – but yS does not want that. I accept that this is counter-intuitive but the truth often is especially when politicians are deliberately muddying the water.

duckman – Member
And we are back to two pages of “you can’t afford it.” We got a real insight into why zulu,jambalaya,TMA et all are worried about the vote.

Not at all ducks – just lifting the “veil of ignorance” (to mis-quote Rawls). To build up a SWF you need to be running a surplus ie revenues > expenditure. Scotland typical runs deficits of around 3% of GDP plus and the DO has plans to reduce taxes while increasing spending. Leaving aside the obvious flaw in that, to suggest that this is compatible with creating an oil fund is simple DECEIT. You need to create a surplus to transfer money into the fund. It really is very simple.

Of course in la la land you can have it all apparently!

And we’re not voting for a policy,

The existence of a large document titled ‘Scotlands future’ points very much towards the fact that you are voting for quite specific policies, or did you forget hearing Alex repeatedly say that a yes vote gave him a mandate?

Otherwise the correct course of action would be to call a Scottish election immediately after a Yes vote!

Whenever I hear mandate am I the only person who thinks of this?

The pish being spouted about the West Coast untapped oil fields and ‘reports’ from a recruitment agency (oil and Gas people) are truly worrying if/when people believe that.

plans to reduce taxes while increasing spending

It’s not a branch of economics that I buy into but it’s not impossible to decrease taxes and increase revenue and therefore spending.

Has anyone sat and worked out how big the deficit/surplus would be if all or even some of the Whitepaper policies were implemented? How big the savings on defence spending etc would be?

The no camp are like a bunch of school teachers wagging their finger, you’ll never amount to anything son! 😆

Good tactic, which generally illicts a f* you response. Carry on!

bigjim – Member

A report by a recruitment agency?

A report commissioned by a recruitment agency. But if you look at the sources it’s far more convincing than that (they include the UK government 😉 )

good read by monbiot?!?
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/sep/02/scots-independence-england-scotland

I was going to post that too. It’s a very good way to put the argument I thought. Especially the point about the same arguments currently being used by the right to justify a euro exit being applicable to the Scottish decision.

I notice that the new scaremongering from the media is that the general election will have to be delayed. No doubt next week it will be power cuts and food shortages…

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/sep/03/calls-to-postpone-uk-general-election-scots-independence

That Guardian article is interesting is several ways. We have the leader of the Scottish Tories saying that they are on course to lose the next general election, saying that because she thinks it might help the No side. And we have a veteran Tory MP giving a good insight into the No mindset when he says that a Yes vote would be “a national humiliation of catastrophic proportions”.

The no camp are like a bunch of school teachers wagging their finger, you’ll never amount to anything son!
Good tactic, which generally illicts a f* you response. Carry on!

between that and the approaching economic DOOM, at least we can expect some brilliant punk records.

The old school across from my shop is being demolished, and today this appeared:

Springbank School – Hope not Fear by Ben Cooper[/url], on Flickr

😀

That’s a beautiful building to demolish..

molgrips – Member
That’s a beautiful building to demolish..

mm, does seem a waste.

Ben

Aren’t you know for wandering around old empty abandoned buildings……..? 😆

Aye, it’s a lovely building – I got some pictures from inside a couple of weeks ago:

Springbank Public School

Sadly Glasgow is full of old schools like this, with no money to look after them and no interest from anyone in redeveloping them.

Sadly Glasgow is full of old schools like this, with no money to look after them and no interest from anyone in redeveloping them.

Shame to destroy your heritage, mind you the Scots seem to have lost the ability to learn from history …. 😉

Glasgow has always been far too keen to tear down old buildings and build new ones. Or were you talking about something else? 😉

@kimbers, very good.

@ben, the council should put preservation orders on them and convert into social housing using public money. Congrats on abandoning “right to buy” btw, a good move.

The UK election is not going to get delayed. It will either take place with Scotland excluded (after passing some specific legislation and this is my preferred scenario) or it will take place with Scottish MPs dropping out from voting once Independence is concluded.

…while the City now appears to have woken up to the possibility of a Yes victory, it’s not uncertainty over Scotland’s future that’s troubling them.

Tucked away in the Financial Times’ report earlier in the week was the giveaway. “Currency investors” would apparently be “particularly concerned by the UK’s persistent current account deficit if this were no longer offset by North Sea oil revenues.”

http://www.neweconomics.org/blog/entry/scottish-independence-uk-dependency

Well worth a read…

@ben, the council should put preservation orders on them and convert into social housing using public money.

Yes, well that’s Glasgow CC for you – easier to let them rot away and be demolished than come up with creative uses for them. There’s another one just up the road, Shakespeare Street School[/url], which they’ve been trying to sell for years.

Bugger all the economic data! There’s no need to carefully count or assess long reports.

I just watched the future deputy leader of the next coalition* govt being interviewed in the USA.

Mr Farage is dead keen to strip away much of Scotland’s share of the UK govt’s expenditure. That of course, will only be possible if we vote No.

Now seeing as Boris (next PM) is saying much the same, I very much doubt that Scotland’s one and only Tory MP is going to be able to reverse this trend.

So it looks like a No vote will lead to even worse consequences than the doom foretold for us if we go independent.

Accept the lesser doom, vote Yes!

——————
*Tory/UKIP alliance.

So.. with the oil then.. isn’t it being extracted by private companies? What revenue does the govt get? And surely some of the companies involved with extraction and refining are British?

Have we “done” home page STW poll ? Rough stats based on Scot v non Scot. Seems fair representation to me

Scots
No 55%, Yes 45% (for scots, so not so far from real polls)

Non Scots
No 55%
Yes 18%
don’t know/care 27%

I think those North of the border should thank Cameron as these results would suggests most of the UK electorate wouldn’t be in favour of an iS and thus would probably not have granted a referendum.

I wonder how many ‘undecideds’ and ‘nos’ would rethink their position, if the question on the 18th was rephrased, “Should Scotland be an independent country from a Tory/UKIP coalition, led by Boris and Nige?”

Bugger all the economic data! There’s no need to carefully count or assess long reports.

I just watched the future deputy leader of the next coalition* govt being interviewed in the USA.

Mr Farage is dead keen to strip away much of Scotland’s share of the UK govt’s expenditure. That of course, will only be possible if we vote No.

Now seeing as Boris (next PM) is saying much the same, I very much doubt that Scotland’s one and only Tory MP is going to be able to reverse this trend.

So it looks like a No vote will lead to even worse consequences than the doom foretold for us if we go independent.

Accept the lesser doom, vote Yes!

vote yes for project feart

@molgrips, yes that’s right the government typically just takes a cut (10%?) plus sells the upfront licence/mineral rights (this is highly dependent on how difficult the oil is to extract). In tin pot countries they then nationalise the oil field once the foreign company has finished building all the infrastructure, so that’s an option for Scotland then 😉

Scots
No 55%, Yes 45%

Not on this thread though 🙂

I wonder how many ‘undecideds’ and ‘nos’ would rethink their position, if the question on the 18th was rephrased, “Should Scotland be an independent country from a Tory/UKIP coalition, led by Boris and Nige?”

Wait, you can’t have it both ways! You can’t deflect criticism of Salmond by saying ‘oh it’s not about the current politicians’ then stir up yes sentiment by quoting the current politicians!

You can’t deflect criticism of Salmond by saying ‘oh it’s not about the current politicians’ then stir up yes sentiment by quoting the current politicians!

Sure you can – the current political system brought us the politicians we’ve got. We’re voting for a new political system, not for any particular politicians.

Why does the Home Page poll count Scottish people separately?

the current political system brought us the politicians we’ve got

No, the electorate did.

The electorate’s minds can be changed fairly easily.

Sure you can – the current political system brought us the politicians we’ve got. We’re voting for a new political system, not for any particular politicians.

it’s sort of an interesting view that political discourse is determined by the institutions and not the people that inhabit them. (that’s not a criticism).

The institutions set limits on the discourse – in the case of Westminster, it means that only a narrow set of right-wing views are heard.

I’ve just voted

Takes the STW independence poll to 52 / 48.

Come on we can do it! 😀

We’re voting for a new political system, not for any particular politicians.

@ben surely you going to get pretty much the same system you have already just with the Scottish Parliament only. I have to think you are going to be very dissappointed if you think the actual system is going to change. You are going to have the same career politicians working with the same real world problems as the every other country making pretty much the same choices as do all the others.