Osbourne says no to currency union.

There’s that, and then there’s the fact that using those tax raising powers to increase income tax in a Scotland which is part of the UK would be political suicide.

Are you sure?

Yes.

http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2462227

If the yes vote wins, how long will take Scotland to become completely independent of the rest of the uk.

They’ve said 18 months but it won’t happen

They won’t get a lot of work done on a “Scotland” bill in 2015 due to the General election
Parliament will be dissolved in March so they’ll really have to wait until autumn 2015 to start the serious work

WML – an interesting read. But it is not certainty. It uses words like “opinion” and “believe”. To quote its own opening position:

Within EU law, there exists no precedent for what happens when a territory of an existing Member State becomes independent, and wishes to retain EU membership, and the treaties do not provide for such an event. The process by which a separate Scotland may become a member of the EU is therefore subject to speculation.

Speculation. That includes that paper itself. I don’t think anyone seriously expects Scotland not to get in, just when, how and on what terms. Assertion of rights and entitlements when negotiation seems the only certainty is well wide of the mark.

Oldbloke – the only two certainties in life are death and taxes. Everything else is speculation. Why should the Yes side need to provide certainties when nobody else does?

Well, they’re making a proposal to change the world a fair bit. Some evidence they can deliver on their vision would be handy and there really isn’t that much. Why does no-one else need to do it? Well, they’re not proposing to change the world.

You said you were sure. You may well be, but there’s no evidential basis for it. I’m sure industrial quantities of political and diplomatic fudge will get Scotland in the EU in the end, but on what terms and when is anyone’s guess.

Surely its not about providing certainties, but showing that you’ve considered and taken into account the effects of the uncertainties.

The ‘what if’ scenarios!

And thats where the white paper and the yes movement in general is failing. Anyone proposing such a big change as independence needs to have worked out their Rumsfelds.

Some evidence they can deliver on their vision would be handy and there really isn’t that much.

What a sentence! Some evidence…. really isn’t that much. If you truly believed that there was no evidence then you would have said that there was no evidence…

It seems so much of what will happen if the yes vote happens is pure speculation and conjecture.

How long has this been in the making, could not have any theoretical talks have taken place with the eu before hand or would Europe not even entertain the idea before the yes vote goes through. Also currency how has a rock solid plan not been agreed before the vote.

It seems to me asking the Scottish people to vote yes is asking for a huge leap of faith. And if they do it will be a huge vote of confidence in their politicians as here the general consensus is you cannot trust them as far as you can throw them.

That might be because there are many areas covered in the white paper and there is some evidence. I don’t believe there’s no evidence. Just nowhere near enough to make the case credible.

The EU made it clear that they will only deal with the governments of current member states – in this case that would be the Tory Govt led by David Cameron. He has refused to do so. One might ask why, especially if he is so sure that the outcome would be in favour of a No vote.

or would Europe not even entertain the idea before the yes vote goes through

Pretty much that. Same with the UK gov’t

And if they do it will be a huge vote of confidence in their politicians as here the general consensus is you cannot trust them as far as you can throw them.

You see the elections that led to the referendum being a possibility – they were an unbelievably big vote of confidence in the SNP. The election system was set up specifically to avoid a one party majority. But the SNP managed it so they must have been doing something right.

they were an unbelievably big vote of confidence in the SNP

They might have taken it that way, but I remember commentary at the time about them benefitting from many people feeling unable to vote labour after the Blair / Brown years. Whether what they did right will extend to Holyrood 2016 will be interesting. What if referendum vote goes Yes and then Labour get into Holyrood (seeing as they’re very unionist)?

What if referendum vote goes Yes and then Labour get into Holyrood

I half expect that to happen. Do you think that Labour would be daft enough to try and have a referendum to get back into a union?

Do you think that Labour would be daft enough to try and have a referendum to get back into a union?

pointless, their would need to be a rUK referendum for the “re”union and there are two hope’s of that ever happening

Exactly.

They don’t have to. They can cover a position in their manifesto.

The referendum vote is being based on a white paper which proposes a desired shape of iScotland. It would be perfectly reasonable for Labour to be elected on a platform that they’ll proceed only if the negotiations get exactly what the electorate has given them a mandate to sign up to and they’ll put the proposal to Holyrood if it falls short. It falls short, Holyrood votes against.

Define “perfectly reasonable”.

But the Scottish Labour Party is currently part of the British Labour Party, so if the yes vote goes through would the become a seperate entity .

For instance if the Labour Party were in goverment in the uk and the Scottish Labour Party were in power in Scotland could the uk Labour Party exert influence over Scotland through the back door through there alliance .

If it is in the manifesto, surely that’s just democracy in action?

They don’t have to. They can cover a position in their manifesto

then we’ll have the wait for a SNP led administration that takes the aging mandate and goes for any deal they can get 😉

I presume they’d have been elected on a platform proposing that, so why not?

How much wriggle room would an indepedent Scotland have? It could either be a race to the bottom lowering taxes or a battle to keep people and companies in if raising taxes. The UK and increasingly EU economies are so tighly coupled that I imagine it is not very easy for national politicians to do much except fiddle around at the edges. Independence seems like a very expensive way of fiddling around at the edges. My sister lives in Ireland a is very p@@sed at how corrupt the politicians are there and how while they have to pay for anything extra at school companies like apple pay next to no tax. It will be interesting in the real world how Scotland would sell itself and what the plan will be. Low tax like Ireland but with rubbish public services or high tax like France but a tanking economy.

chip – Member
…It seems to me asking the Scottish people to vote yes is asking for a huge leap of faith. And if they do it will be a huge vote of confidence in their politicians as here the general consensus is you cannot trust them as far as you can throw them.

Of course it’s a leap of faith.

The difference is all our politicians will be elected, and not include a load of appointed for life parasites.

Voting No is a leap of faith. Hoping that the “more powers” promised actually happen. Hoping that the Barnett formula isn’t cut. Hoping that the NHS survives. Hoping that the UK stays in the EU.

No point hoping that Trident is scrapped or austerity lessened – all parties have signed up to carry on with those, they’ll definitely continue after a No vote.

Low tax like Ireland but with rubbish public services or high tax like France but a tanking economy.

Its not a land of Tunnock’s Teacake clouds and Irn Bru streams

Just a less divided, fairer country where we look after each other a bit better.
The rest of Europe seems to manage it quite well
https://www.opendemocracy.net/ourkingdom/adam-ramsay/scotland-isnt-different-its-britain-thats-bizarre

it’s only a leap of faith if you think the Scottish Parliament needs more powers. the closer the proposed change is to the status quo, the smaller the leap. more like a hop of faith.

The status quo is that I am an EU citizen and also able to travel to the rest of the UK and Ireland under the CTA.

a very interesting point, Mr Cooper. iScotland is not a party to the CTA agreements. upon independence, does it try to become a party to those agreements? will Ireland (a pro-Schengen country with no border with Scotland) and the UK agree to that? what happens to the Scottish promise to the EU to accede to Schengen, which is incompatible with the CTA? is Scotland going to mark its modern debut into international diplomacy by violating at least one of the first international treaties it’s going to sign?

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Travel_Area

There’s no such thing as EU citizenship, properly understood. there’s only citizenship of a state that is a member of the EU. if the UK leaves the EU tomorrow, UK citizens don’t continue to be citizens of the EU. individuals don’t have a personal relationship with the EU (or other entities in international law), it’s always mediated by the state.

bencooper – Member
“Voting No is a leap of faith. “

Not at all. We know how the systems works (well), you get all the good bits from the DOs wish list (except the big throne and mirror) except you actually get representation in the body that makes policy. Instead of a foreign county doing it for you.

“Hoping that the “more powers” promised actually happen.”

All parties have committed to more devolved power. Talk about spoilt kid syndrome, Scotland already gets more than most other parts of the UK and will get even more. There is only one logical box to tick.

I shall be voting yes for a Free Yorkshire. I don’t believe that we should be supporting any more of these hangers on and parasitic counties think they can rule our great country.

Just my weekly up date from this oppressed land.

There’s no such thing as EU citizenship

Whilst I agree with that, the people of an independent Scotland have no problems being ‘thrown out’ of the EU in the event of a yes vote thanks to the clear statement from the UK government that they will allow dual nationality therefore guaranteeing that anyone holding a British passport will able to take advantage of the UKs treaties.

Of course this needs agreement from the iScotland government that they will also allow dual nationality.

Of course this needs agreement from the iScotland government that they will also allow dual nationality.

The Scottish government have already said they’ll allow dual nationality:

http://www.yesscotland.net/answers/who-will-be-eligible-scottish-citizenship-independence-and-future

Theresa May said the Westminster government might not allow dual nationality:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-24928350

I’ll be a triple national 😉

All parties have committed to more devolved power. Talk about spoilt kid syndrome, Scotland already gets more than most other parts of the UK and will get even more. There is only one logical box to tick.

All parties have said they’re committed to more devolved power – but they have not produced any real detail, there’s no legislation pending (apart from the Scotland Act 2012 which is already in the works), and several senior people have stated they think there’s no need for further powers.

And, really, the “powers” suggested aren’t a help. It’s suggested to give further tax-raising powers, letting the Scottish government raise more of the money it spends. But the corresponding block grant will be cut. So Scotland will have to set up a whole new tax department and bureaucracy, at great expense, and won’t get any more money because of it.

The only logical choice is to vote to be able to decide these things for ourselves, not rely on Westminster promises – we know what they’re worth.

mt – Member
I shall be voting yes for a Free Yorkshire. I don’t believe that we should be supporting any more of these hangers on and parasitic counties think they can rule our great country.

As indeed you should. It’s about time York regained its former glories.

It’s been a while since it spent 3 years as the centre of the Roman Empire, but there’s no reason you lot can’t do it again. Those pesky southern tribes will soon be conquered, and then you can cross the channel and invade Brussels to complete the job. 🙂

29 days to go.

And, really, the “powers” suggested aren’t a help. It’s suggested to give further tax-raising powers, letting the Scottish government raise more of the money it spends. But the corresponding block grant will be cut. So Scotland will have to set up a whole new tax department and bureaucracy, at great expense, and won’t get any more money because of it.

I’m not sure thats a correct interpretation of the changes. The planned change is for the UK to collect 10p less income tax from Scotland and to change the block grant to reflect this (so yes the block grant will be smaller). Scotland then has the power to set it’s rate at whatever it choses, if it choses 10p then the revenue into Scotland will be the same, but it has the option to increase its rate to 11p (or more) and gain extra revenue.

So Scotland will have to set up a whole new tax department and bureaucracy, at great expense

<£200Million isn’t it?

Dual nationality, **** off.
Either you want to be part of the uk or you want an independent Scotland.

To want both IS taking the piss.

chip – Member
Dual nationality, **** off.
Either you want to be part of the uk or you want an independent Scotland.

To want both IS taking the piss.

Who wants it? Not any I can think off.

Why would I want English citizenship if I have Scottish?

I can understand English born Scots residents wanting it if England and its territories leave the EU.

Edit: I forgot – there will be a class of people needing this. The lying Scottish politicians of Project Fear. They will need it to get their reward of elevation to that great democratic institution, the House of Lords. I suggest that such a provision exists purely for their benefit.

Voting No is a leap of faith.

Indeed no one can accurately predict what will happen either way
It is reasonable to say there will be/is more uncertaininty with a yes vote but both require a faith in politicians to deliver on their promises.

The big one with the rUK is an EU vote as well. That is a big unknown.

Talk about spoilt kid syndrome, Scotland already gets more than most other parts of the UK and will get even more.

It doe snot get the party it voted for so that is just bobbins and a little rude with your spoilt kid syndrome. Even more is an aspiration at best.

There’s no such thing as EU citizenship

Well that is just plain wrong
http://ec.europa.eu/justice/citizen/
Any person who holds the nationality of an EU country is automatically also an EU citizen. EU citizenship is additional to and does not replace national citizenship. It is for each EU country to lay down the conditions for the acquisition and loss of nationality of that country.
Citizenship of the Union is conferred directly on every EU citizen by the Treaty on the Functioning of the EU

It as rights as well such as free movement that non EU nationals do not have.

So if the yes vote wins through the Scottish will not be independant untill Independence Day .
Until which Scottish people will still be part of Europe.
And will Scotland have to what untill Independence Day to come before being ble able to enter discussions with the EU.

So will there be a period of time where Scotland is no longer part of the uk so no longer part of Europe untill they finalise the details of Scotland joining the EU.
And for that period of time would Scots abroad working under freedom of movement have to return home or stop working at least. Or will the EU offer a period off grace while everything is going through.

chip – Member
So will there be a period of time where Scotland is no longer part of the uk

Nah, we remain part of the UK until independence day. And even get to vote in the next general election.

British passports will still be valid, so no workers won’t need to return home.

Scottish will not be independant untill Independence Day .
Until which Scottish people will still be part of Europe.

TRUE

And will Scotland have to what untill Independence Day to come before being ble able to enter discussions with the EU.

No they will negotiate if they vote for independence so there is no gap – they wont wait. [ more accurately this is what they will negotiate for it may not happen as your next question notes]

So will there be a period of time where Scotland is no longer part of the uk so no longer part of Europe untill they finalise the details of Scotland joining the EU.

Unlikely IMHO they will either be accepted before and join seamlessly or they will be rejected and not join. It is unlikely [ or the least likely]they will need to start afresh but anything is possible.

And for that period of time would Scots abroad working under freedom of movement have to return home or stop working at least. Or will the EU offer a period off grace while everything is going through.

God knows but I would imagine they would give a period of grace but it is just a guess. Would also be an issue for scots living in england and english in scotland though ; that would be a proper mess that i assume all would want to avoid.