Osbourne says no to currency union.

You highlighted the wrong bit

Speaking to the Scotland on Sunday, a “senior EU source” said an independent Scotland‘s application to join the EU would be treated as a “special case” as the country was already signed up to core requirements such as gender equality and workers’ rights.

Is Scotland currently independent? Its not and it is currently a member of the EU as is it is part if the UK.

If an iS was automatically a member why would anyone be talking about “joining”? It’s simple spin and BS to suggest anything otherwise.

As far as I am aware no one has claimed they will automatically be a member and everyone accepts they have to reapply*. however they are currently a member of the EU.

The debate was about Scotland not iS.

* there is debate over which article and whether as an internal member or external – i forget which articles 41 or 42???? there is legitimate debate about this point as to which will prevail

I doubt any of us wish to predict what fudge the EU will choose to do and whether they will or they will not follow their own rules and procedures.

BTW Ben assuming that you are not a News International fully paid up subscriber who spends their Sunday mornings reading the Sunday Times, how did you manage to stumble on this article hidden behind a paywall ?

Does Wings Over Scotland send you an email alerting you of the latest line to push ?

It was on Twitter last night.

You can also buy paper papers.

No need to be subscribed to anything.

The UK government wasted tens of thousands of pounds of taxpayers money with a leaflet mistake.

That was on Twitter too.

I dont work in the North Pole but I know it is cold, it is that level of controversial as statements go. If you must have a constant spat with me at least pick something of substance that may actually not be true.
You want proof that politicians brief off the record? BRILLIANT

You said it is “it is very common for the politicians spokesperson to brief off the record” and I asked how you know this. Realistically you don’t know how often politicians spokespersons brief off the record do you? So when you stated that it occurs commonly you were wrong. Stop trying to make yourself out to be an expert on everything and lets stick to facts shall we old bean 🙄

p.s. I do not have a constant spat with you I am merely pointing out whenever you talk nonsense, you do it to everybody else on here 😉

I think you will be alone in thinking that politicians dont brief off the record on a regular basis. Anyway ,as you dont work for the press or in politics , your answer wont stand up to scrutiny 😉

Of all the shit I spout on here that really is amongst the least controversial.

The original article was supposedly from a senior source in the EU speaking about Juncker’s views regarding an iScotland . Who is this source, how credible are they, how close are they to Juncker? I usually dismiss second hand information for the gossip that it is although I am not surprised that Ben took it as gospel. What is surprising is the way Blair Jenkins reacted “This is a timely intervention and completely debunks the scaremongering by the No campaign over Scotland’s future as an EU member”. It is not a credible intervention and it does not debunk any claims the no campaign have made about iScotland and the EU. Blair Jenkins response is misleading and smacks of desperation.

As for whether politicians brief off the record on a regular basis, it sounds like you have been watching too much House Of Cards.

I have no idea what house of cards is FWIW – tv show I guess but i rarely watch tv unless it is sport. FWIW it amused me that you just spent an entire paragraph talking about what I said happened then finished off by criticising me for saying it happens.
tbh the number of times you say the phrase smacks of desperation smacks of desperation 😉

Both sides look for anything that may support their cause then post it up here and elsewhere. as the No did originally with JUnkers comments till hhis spokesperson said he did not mean them

the report comes after the No Campaign was accused of “distorting remarks” made by Mr Juncker after he said the EU needed to “take a break” from expansion.

Pro-UK campaigners seized on the president’s remarks, claiming they made it clear that a Yes vote the referendum would also be a vote to leave the EU.

However, a spokeswoman for Mr Juncker’s spokeswoman[ WTF!!] later said he was not referring to Scotland in his comments. Deputy first minister Nicola Sturgeon said the No camp had “wilfully twisted” Mr Juncker’s words and demanded an apology from the campaign.
I seemed to have missed the post where you were equally annoyed at the desperation in that from the No camp Perhaps, in the interest of balance, you could express your dismay now ?

FWIW I dont disagree over using unamed sources etc, its a shitty way to do things but it undeniably happens in the dark arts of politics.

EU refuses to comment on remarks made by unnamed sources

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-28390740

To be honest, I think anyone trying to read anything in to comments now made either way from any EU officials is howling at the moon, they’ve now made it pretty clear on numerous occasions that they are not going to comment officially on what will actually happen regards Scotland until after the referendum, if and when they get a formal application, so as not to sway the internal debate any more than has happened already.

FWIW it amused me that you just spent an entire paragraph talking about what I said happened then finished off by criticising me for saying it happens.

No I didn’t so don’t try and weasel your way out of being proved wrong. You claimed “it is very common for the politicians spokesperson to brief off the record”. You don’t work in the press and you don’t work in politics so you wouldn’t know either way. You dissect everybody’s comments and do your best to prove them wrong and you have been caught red handed talking complete and utter nonsense using your own tactics. Take it like a man old boy, admit you were wrong and we can move on.

piemonster – Member

You can also buy paper papers.

No need to be subscribed to anything.

Ben doesn’t strike me as someone who pops down to the newsagents on a Sunday morning to pick up his copy of the Sunday Times.

How would he have time to trawl through the internet looking for Separatist friendly propaganda if he wasted time reading the Sunday newspapers ?

don’t try and weasel your way out of being proved wrong

Comedy Gold thank you
I did genuinely belly laugh at that one.

You don’t work in the press and you don’t work in politics so you wouldn’t know either way.

Neither do you so if this specious argument were true [ one does not have to work in the press or politics to have an inkling about how they operate] it would negate your point about me being wrong. If you were right you would be wrong. I know this is too complicated for you to get but trust me.

you have been caught red handed talking complete and utter nonsense

Yes you are right politicians and their spokespeople never ever brief off the record, never use unsourced folk to make statements on their behalf, you never read phrase like “sources close to the PM said”, ever anywhere and it does not mean their press secretary, everytime they speak it is on the record and attributed to them or their spokesperson and your simple denial of that is indeed me proved completely and utterly wrong on this point.
Jesus man what I said is not even vaguely controversial nor wrong and you are so desperate to get a win [ Its the internet who cares and get a grip] you are beyond clutching at straws.
IIRC one or two of them have written about their time you should consider reading one as it will be a marvellous revelation to you. Out of interest what do you think the term Spin doctor means – sourced purveyor of the truth perhaps?

Take it like a man old boy, admit you were wrong and we can move on.

Like you did with the trams eh 😳

I am done on this issue as sources close to JY said he thought your point is laughable.
Oh that really was funny. thanks.

How would he have time to trawl through the internet looking for Separatist friendly propaganda if he wasted time reading the Sunday newspapers ?

Ben….post propaganda….outrageous

Wonder if the ‘unnamed senior EU source’ was Graham Avery, who has said very similar things before?

I also wonder if he’s ‘unnamed’ because last time he spouted forth his comments were officially disowned by Barroso, stating that Avery’s honorary position did not qualify him to speak in any official capacity on behalf of the commission

59 days.

you never read phrase like “sources close to the PM said”

You do in the Daily Mail and papers of that ilk. Mystery sources can be made up, I believe George Clooney just caught the Mail out lying using an undisclosed source, proving that newspapers use made up sources to make news.

I know this is too complicated for you to get but trust me.

Yet more wisdom that only you in your supreme knowledge could know. 🙄

As I said previously let us stick to facts and not treat second hand gossip as gospel.

Ninfan are you saying an undisclosed source was spouting nonsense? 😆

Ben doesn’t strike me as someone who pops down to the newsagents on a Sunday morning to pick up his copy of the Sunday Times.

How would he have time to trawl through the internet looking for Separatist friendly propaganda if he wasted time reading the Sunday newspapers ?

Sunday Herald. If they have any copies in Waitrose.

It doesn’t exactly take long to look at Twitter occasionally, and copy-and-paste anything here that seems interesting.

I’m disappointed to hear that your commitment to Scottish Freedom doesn’t appear to take up much of your time.

You are just 2 months away from possible Freedom, time to pull all the stops out ffs.

If you don’t fight for Freedom you give it away without protest. Stand free or kneel chained.

Yet more wisdom that only you in your supreme knowledge could know

I meant it was beyond your grasp not that it was actually difficult to grasp; imagine you not getting that eh.

I apologise for misunderestimating you

I’m disappointed to hear that your commitment to Scottish Freedom doesn’t appear to take up much of your time.

Nah, I just know there’s not much point discussing it on here 😉

Much more fun discussing it in person.

Not head much from the Irish tbh. I’d be interested in any other articles worth reading.

This one doesn’t say all that much tbh.
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/uk/irish-seem-lost-for-words-on-scottish-independence-1.1869769

It doesn’t exactly take long to look at Twitter occasionally, and copy-and-paste anything here that seems interesting.

Twitter is only as good as those you follow.

Google alerts is also handy.

Is Scotland currently independent? Its not and it is currently a member of the EU as is it is part if the UK.

you need to get this through your skull: Scotland is not a member of the EU. The EU has 28 members. Scotland is not one of them.

You might confuse yourself less if you use the terminology “member states”. You will then look at the list of member states of the EU, and see that Scotland isn’t on there; and then you will realise that not only is Scotland not a member state of the EU, but it cannot be a member state of the EU because it isn’t a state.

Scotland is geographically within the EU in the same way that Alton Towers is within the EU. But Alton Towers is not an EU member. Neither is Thorpe Park. (Center Parcs is seems continental, though, at least from the reviews on Mumsnet).

On the Twitter front, a musician I follow has seriously disappointed me this weekend – comparing the relationship between Scotland & England directly to the situation in Gaza 🙁
Its very disappointing to find your musical heroes to be somewhat facile & hard of thinking.

Twitter, literally a self selecting medium.

Pros and cons to it really. But the flaws are very real.

you need to get this through your skull: Scotland is not a member of the EU. The EU has 28 members. Scotland is not one of them.

Scotland is currently a non-independent country part of a union that’s a member of the EU, and whose population are EU citizens.

It’s a unique situation. Unique situations require unique solutions, and a sensible one will be negotiated.

Twitter, literally a self selecting medium.

Pros and cons to it really. But the flaws are very real.

Absolutely – I do follow Better Together as well, but there’s always the risk that you get self-referential and everyone just starts quoting each other,

It’s a unique situation.

in what sense is it unique?

bencooper – Member

“I’m disappointed to hear that your commitment to Scottish Freedom doesn’t appear to take up much of your time.”

Nah, I just know there’s not much point discussing it on here

Yes I had noticed how you can’t be bothered discussing Scottish independence “on here”. 🙂

.

in what sense is it unique?

That’s a very easy one. It’s unique because as Alex Salmond points none of the rules which would normally apply need to be applied to Scotland.

EU membership, NATO commitments, currency union, cause difficulties and awkward questions to be asked ? Don’t worry Scotland because is special, and anyone who says differently is just been completely “negative”.

In fact Scotland is so different that after it becomes “independent” it will be able to cut taxes and increase public spending, presumably after Alex Salmond has waved his magic wand. And again if anyone suggests differently then they are just being negative.

It’s a unique situation. Unique situations require unique solutions, and a sensible one will be negotiated.

This will be very interesting to see – Personally I think Scotland should be independent, but I don’t think they have a cat in hells chance of joining the eu as Spain will veto it, due to the catelan and basque issues

I just got defriended by TJ for pointing that one out to him 🙁

Oh well, AS and his worthy advisers (Stiglitz, Mirlees etc) now have the final chance to put things straight. The Scottish affairs select committee has just pronounced the idea of a CU as a ‘dead parrot.’

They conclude that no present or future government could enter a CU without destroying their political and economic credibility.

“The committee also believes that such clarity is necessary: not only because a joint currency would be against the best interests of both the continuing United Kingdom and a separate Scotland, but also because the people of Scotland deserve to know before the referendum what the true consequence of their vote might be,” the MPs said.

Quite. They must have been reading this thread.

Not surprisingly, a spokesman for AS dismissed their findings! Common Alex, time to earn you money and show us plan D!

But Ian Davidson, the Labour chair of the committee, said there would definitely be no union: “No ifs, no buts, no fudges, no deals”. That had been firmly stated by the leadership of the UK’s three main political parties. “There is no shadow of doubt. All were unequivocal,” he said. “The Scottish government tries to give the impression that a currency union is still a possibility. It is not. This parrot is dead.”

They really have been reading this thread….

In such a situation, a separate Scotland’s interest rates and key aspects of its public finances, tax and spending choices would be decided by a Government and in a Parliament where Scotland was no longer represented.

Be careful what you wish/vote for!!!!

More snake oil anyone?

EDIT:

In such a situation, a separate Scotland’s interest rates and key aspects of its public finances, tax and spending choices would be decided by a Government and in a Parliament where Scotland was no longer represented.

MY BOLD
I am not an economists but could you remind the class exactly how the Uk interest rates are set?
I was labouring under the misconception that it was set by the Bank of england who were completely independent of government and had been since 1998. is this really not the case? If you could forgive the troll and answer the question I would be delighted to read your clarification as it appears you have quoted an inaccuracy that you would consider a lie were AS to do it.
It would seem you do indeed have some snake oil to peddle.
Go on insult your way out of that one THM whilst not explaining the role of MPC to the class. Thi is exactly what you moan at AS for doing and you are informed enough to know exactly how interest rates are set and you know it is not by parliament

I believe you would call the committee report politically motivated were it not for the fact that you agree with with those no voters from west minister saying what they think about the referenduum.
I would also have thought the report was Ultra vires given their remit but lets ignore that bit.

you need to get this through your skull: Scotland is not a member of the EU*. The EU has 28 members. Scotland is not one of them.

That is true scotland is not a member state the UK is. However Scotland is a member of the UK.
If scotland was not in the EU [ by virtue of being in the UK] then people born in scotland are not EU citizens and when you went there you would not be in the EU. That is clearly not the case because it is in the EU.
Using your argument if the EU signed a treaty[ on behalf of all the members] your argument would be that the UK is not part of it as the EU signed it and the UK is not named on the list. Its not a great argument.

I think Ben is correct in that it is unique in the sense a current part of the EU will stop being a member and need to reapply /apply for membership. So far all they have had is new countries, not currently part of the EU, apply [ and East Germany via unification.

I also think it is correct that the Spanish are likely to be the main obstacle but I bet the EU can find a fudge through that somehow if they will it.

I am not an economists but could you remind the class exactly how the Uk interest rates are set?
I was labouring under the misconception that it was set by the Bank of England who were completely independent of government and had been since 1998. is this really not the case?

A political decision made by the UK parliament, The 1998 Bank of England Act, Scotland would have no say in in the appointment of members of the MPC, in the target inflation rate, or whether the constitution, function or role of the MPC changed in the future.

Essentially, its entirely a creation of the UK parliament, and therefore remains entirely under UK government control.

Well kind of. The decisions they make are completely independent, the target they are required to meet is set by government.

Though I suppose in the context of an “independent” Scotland being in a currency union with the rUK, it is quite independent.

This would be a very different discussion if John Major had joined the Euro all those years ago, rather than making such a fuss.

@Junkyard
Interest rates are set by the MPC/BoE according to the criteria set by Government eg UK ecomonic activity, inflation target etc
Finances, tax and spending are set by the Government

So whilst you might argue Interest Rates are nto set directly by the Government everything else is.

JY an independent Scotland will have the euro, sooner (possibly immediately upon joining) or later.

Don’t feed, it’s more fun just to watch – freedom of speech and all that.

WOOOSH.