Osbourne says no to currency union.

The breakup of the UK is probably the biggest thing to happen politically in the last 100 years at least. You think it’s beneath the dignity of the Prime Minister to debate on it?

Of course everyone can pick and choose who they debate with. Darling said he’d debate Salmond “any time, any place”. Now he’s changed his mind about that.

And I’m really not outraged in the slightest. More amused at Better Together – it takes a certain talent to shoot yourself in the foot so many times.

AS and CMD are both the leaders of their respective countries and the yes no positions. It is not unreasonable that they have a debate
Farage is a loon who hates one union [ not enough to not be an MP there or take their money] and loves another so much that he will go to a foreign land to tell them to stay in the union and not die by irony or embarrassment 😉
CMD is not choosing who he will debate he is refusing to debate. it is not the same thing.
You are comparing chalk and cheese here in terms of the people and the scenario.

He’s being set up to fail.

Spot on Ben. In his position, I would feel v uncomfortable, perhaps that is why he not doing a great job. He knows he holds all the aces but he is losing the tactical skirmishes. He was out-of-his depth in the financial crisis and looks the same here. I expect that G Brown is quite happy to see that, which is a shame given the seriousness of the issue at hand.

AS will always seek to frame the debate around Westminster/English Tories. CMD is tactically correct to avoid that. As compelling as that argument is for most Scots, it is the not central to this debate. Even if it was, AS is proposing letting the same people control economic policy anyway but that elephant is looking tired by now.

Of course everyone can pick and choose who they debate with. Darling said he’d debate Salmond “any time, any place”. Now he’s changed his mind about that.

So what’s wrong with July 16 ? Why is that unacceptable ? Cut out the bullshit and explain exactly why July 16 is unacceptable.

You’ve been banging on about this debate over two pages, so it’s clearly very important to you, how about you now explain why July 16 is unacceptable ?

Go on, don’t be shy, this debate is ‘so important’ I think we all deserve an explanation as to why Salmond won’t debate on July 16.

Let’s just assume Darling was lying when he said “any time, any place”, so there’s no need to keep whingeing about it and we can move on. So why can’t the debate be staged on July 16, isn’t the debate that important after all, is whingeing and playing silly games far more important ?

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/scottish-independence-blog/2014/jun/23/stv-salmond-debate-darling

AS never said yes to it [ he sent an invite to Dave] and, this will be a shock, but it is for political reasons that he is doing this…. I know imagine.

He prefers to debate nearer the vote to sway the crucial undecided rather than when the vote is some way

Its not hard to find the reasons tbh – you are free to find them noble or ignoble

So what’s wrong with July 16 ? Why is that unacceptable ? Cut out the bullshit and explain exactly why July 16 is unacceptable.

Because it’s right in the middle of the biggest sporting event ever held in Scotland, there are a few distractions.

And of course Salmond would like to get the biggest audience for the debate, he doesn’t want to be competing for air time with the rhythmic gymnastics.

He was willing to compromise if the debate was with the Prime Minister, but if it’s going to be with a backbench MP then he’s less inclined to be accomodating.

Because it’s right in the middle of the biggest sporting event ever held in Scotland, there are a few distractions.

23 July to 3 August?

he’s less inclined to be accomodating

Head of the No campaign

I still don’t get why Alex is allowed to pick and choose how accommodating he is, while Dave isn’t

Maybe he’s got better things to do, like running the country, picking the fluff out his belly button, something like that?

Heres a lesson Alex, the Prime minister of the country doesn’t have to jump when you tell him to!

Ooh, look, there’s the faux-outrage bus going past the window again!

It was supposed to be a faux-outrage tram but, you know…Scotland.

bencooper – Member

I know, that weird delusion where I can read and understand the words of a newspaper article

You seem to only be able to understand the words that you want to.
Now which of these statements, from your source, do you disagree with?

Salmond agreed to a debate with Darling.
The date was set, Salmond pulled out.
Another date has been agreed to by BT, Salmond is yet to agree to it.

These are all from your source Ben.
Which date has Darling pulled out of?

Darling said he’d debate Salmond “any time, any place”. Now he’s changed his mind about that.

Again, which time and place has Darling pulled out of?
You keep asserting that he has changed his mind, so give me a specific date and location for the debate that he has pulled out of.

Because it’s right in the middle of the biggest sporting event ever held in Scotland, there are a few distractions.

No it isn’t. July 16 is a week before the Commonwealth Games. That’s not the reason – try to think of another one.

It’s amazing that despite creating such a fuss about this debate you haven’t yet thought up a reason why it can’t be on July 16.

Although you, me, and everyone else, knows the real reason – because Salmond wants to play silly games. And he wants to call the shots, bully, and dictate – another reason why people should vote No in September.

12 August is far more important, surely?

Salmond agreed to a debate with Darling.

Yup.

The date was set, Salmond pulled out.

Nope. Salmond offered to debate Cameron on the 16th or Darling at a later date. Salmond didn’t pull out of anything.

No it isn’t. July 16 is a week before the Commonwealth Games. That’s not the reason – try to think of another one.

Still right in the middle of the media build-up, not the best time to do it.

Although you, me, and everyone else, knows the real reason – because Salmond wants to play silly games. And he wants to call the shots, bully, and dictate – another reason why people should vote No in September.

Ah, another try at comparing Salmond to a dictator – it’s been ages since we had one of those 😉

I’m not a SNP supporter. I’d probably never vote for Salmond again. Voting No because you don’t like Salmond is one of the more stupid reasons for voting No.

No one would position votes or debates around symbolic moments, dates or events Ben, would they!?! C 😉

Nope. Salmond offered to debate Cameron on the 16th or Darling at a later date. Salmond didn’t pull out of anything.

The date was set by STV, the hosts of the debate.

You seem to only be able to understand the words that you want to.

When it comes to losing the argument, your refusal to answer simple questions trumps my tendancy to be abusive, hands down.

I’m not even sure why you continue to post on this thread Ben.
There is nothing to debate with you, because you have already stated that you have closed your mind to debate.
It was you afterall, that said they would still vote YES even if it was detrimental to Scotland.
🙄

Of course Salmond wants to have the debate at the best time for him – he’s probably the best political operator in the UK, of course he’s manipulating it.

But that still doesn’t alter the fact that Darling said “any place, any time” then pulled out. That was a bad move.

Better Together’s aim is to avoid having any debates, which they’d lose, while trying to make it look as if the lack of debates isn’t their fault.

Worth putting this in context

A couple of years ago, OFCOM found STV to be in breach of the broadcasting code over sponsorship, because they had been altering content and scheduling of programmes at the behest of the Scottish Government…

There is nothing to debate with you, because you have already stated that you have closed your mind to debate.

😀

I’d love to hear some intelligent debate around voting No, but that’s not happening on this thread. I’ve heard some really good speakers for the No side, the author Ken Macleod has some really good things to say. He hasn’t convinced me yet, but made me think. This thread is just light entertainment.

It was you afterall, that said they would still vote YES even if it was detrimental to Scotland.

When did I say that? I’m sure I had caveats like if it was detrimental in the short term or something.

But that still doesn’t alter the fact that Darling said “any place, any time” then pulled out. That was a bad move.

AT WHAT DATE AND LOCATION WAS THE DEBATE THAT DARLING PULLED OUT OF?

YES I AM SHOUTING. IF I WAS IN THE SAME ROOM AS YOU IMAGINE I WAS DOING IT RIGHT IN YOUR FACE.

🙂

Still right in the middle of the media build-up, not the best time to do it.

😆

On the previous page you said : “The breakup of the UK is probably the biggest thing to happen politically in the last 100 years at least”.

But now you are claiming that Scots will be too distracted the by Commonwealth Games, which will be held a week later, to be bothered watching their First Minister debate the issue !

So according to you Scots attach even less importance to Scottish independence than Cameron.

bencooper – Member

Of course Salmond wants to have the debate at the best time for him – he’s probably the best political operator in the UK

I think I just physically felt the effects of Ben’s swoon for dear leader all the way down here in sunny Cambridgeshire. 😆

I’m off to chase some skirt, see y’all later.

Still right in the middle of the media build-up, not the best time to do it.

What better time than when a fair amount of foreign media are in town and when Scotland is at the centre of attention?

Still, I suppose they could debate it on a wet Thursday in a village hall in Easter Ross…

sbob – Member
I’m off to chase some skirt, see y’all later.

Isn’t it referred to as a kilt?

Nope, I’m not a big fan of him – he’s far too keen on big business for my liking.

However liking is not the same as admiring. He took a fringe party, got it into power in Scotland (in a system designed to prevent that) and is now a bawhair away from getting independence.

Salmond agreed to a debate with Darling.
The date was set, Salmond pulled out.

This is just not true he never agreed so he could not pull out he has always wanted a debate with CMD and he refuses to have this debate…..still lets all call AS names eh for wanting to select the date of a debate with someone else as that is far far worse …i do so admire principles stances ….if i keep looking someone will have one 😉
From STV

Our position is that an invitation has gone to Alistair Darling and Alex Salmond to debate on 16th July and until we’ve heard back from all parties we don’t want to speculate on how or when or anything.

The first minister has replied with a note that they’ve sent to David Cameron and they’re waiting to hear back from Downing Street before coming back to STV. Our position is that the 16th July is the date we’ve proposed to both sides and it has been [proposed] to Alistair Darling and Alex Salmond.

Of course Salmond wants to have the debate at the best time for him

I am not sure why this is a debate anymore than CMS refusal is. Of course he does only an idiot would not want to do it when it best suited them – see daves refusal

They are politicians they make decisions for political reasons, some of these decisions stink.

Salmond wants to play silly games. And he wants to call the shots, bully, and dictate – another reason why people should vote No in September.

Awesome – What about CMD who wont even debate as it is down to Scotland but will keep making unchallenged statements? This debate is so partisan its ridiculous, and from you Ernie , I expect better [ together 😉 ]

Salmond wants to play silly games. And he wants to call the shots, bully, and dictate – another reason why people should vote No in September.

Awesome

What would be really awesome would be if the nats could think of one credible reason why the debate between Salmond and Darling shouldn’t be on July 16.

But of course you can’t.

Ben after giving the issue much thought comes up with the excuse that it will be in the middle of the Commonwealth Games, even though it won’t be.

And you come up with the excuse that Salmond wants the debate nearer polling day, conveniently ignoring the fact that Salmond has said that he would very happy to have the debate on July 16 with Cameron.

So since we’ve run out of excuses the conclusion must be that Salmond is playing games, even Ben concedes that Salmond is “manipulating”.

Simple question: who pulled out of the debate?

All the articles I’ve read say “Better Together walk out” or variations on that.

It’s funny seeing people argue the opposite, though.

Another simple question : what’s wrong with July 16 ?

Funny how you can’t answer that one.

Again you’re confusing me with someone who works in the Yes campaign 😉

What’s wrong with the 16th is that Salmond never offered to debate Darling on the 16th.

Edit: Salmond has accepted STV’s suggestion of a debate on the 5th of August. So will Darling (“any place, any time”) accept that?

But of course you can’t

Not sure why i became a “nat” Is it ernie name calling day rather than ernie making insightful comments?

To be clear almost all my comments have been yes no shit that is what politicians do [ Ben gets enough shit without me joining in but he is no where near impartial if that helps] Personally I can see little difference between CMD refusal and AS wanting to debate nearer the election date [ is that a reason yet?*] Perhaps you could explain why only one deserves your venom and name calling- the principle behind this view?
Its interesting how both sides only want to talk of the other when their side** is doing basically the same thing

* the article i linked to explained but yes think it will more likely sway the floating voters – why ask a questions if you dont read the answers and links?

But that date is far from convenient for Salmond: as this blog reported last month, he and his strategists want to stage the debates far closer to polling day – ideally just before about one million of Scotland’s 4m voters start to receive their postal votes on 25 August, at a point when the final campaign is in full swing

Go too early – in July, and the debate will be competing for an audience already depleted by the school holidays with the 2014 Glasgow games, the First World War commemorations in early August and the final stages of the world cup.

Go too late, you miss influencing those crucial postal votes – these are the committed electors who are far more likely to take part but conversely to have made up their minds; you may be talking to an increasingly weary and committed electorate and you also have too little time to fix any disasters from the debate.

And for the yes campaign, still lagging behind in the polls, timing is critical: Salmond may be a divisive character for many voters, but he is rightly famous for his sharp debating skills and his ease on a stage. He is an asset which his team needs to play very cleverly indeed.

** I apologise for claiming CMD is your side but you get my point.

Ben gets enough shit without me joining in but he is no where near impartial if that helps

Yup, and I don’t claim to be, I’m not the BBC 🙂

If you listen to some that does not stop you working for the BBC 😉

Is it ernie name calling day rather than ernie making insightful comments?

I stopped reading after that. I had already ignored your comment in your previous post : “This debate is so partisan its ridiculous, and from you Ernie , I expect better”.

You always end up attacking someone on a personal level. You accuse others of resorting to personal insults and yet throughout this thread you yourself have resorted to personal insults, you just can’t help yourself.

I generally ignore your posts and thought that it was probably a mistake to give a lengthy response to your comment, I was right.

I generally ignore your posts and thought that it was probably a mistake to give a lengthy response to your comment, I was right.

Wisdom comes to us all in time, Ernie!! 😉

There’s a word for it………..

There is a report post button for both you and THM if you think I am overstepping the mark with my “personal comments” which mean disagreeing with you and challenging you when you are fast and lose with facts. I have heard nothing from moderators and only those reluctant to reply/defend themselves have complained on the forum so far.
Easier to attack me than explain why AS is different from CMD or for THM to defend the claim that AS has only done all this to “get power” innit.

FWIW the original comment was a compliment [ it not well written ] in that you are one of the most insightful commentators on STW and that comment/analysis was not what I would expect from you. It was not meant as an insult in general just on that one post

Why do we need a televised debate about independence between two individuals? I understand the need for debates between political party leaders in the run up to an election because it gives the electorate a chance to judge their debating styles, gauge their personalities, and to decide who they want to run the country. With the case of Scottish Independence though people are not voting for Alec Salmond or the SNP so a one on one debate does not make as much sense. Maybe a panel of members from both sides would be more appropriate?
I can’t help but feel that this television debate is distracting from the fact that a lot of questions about independence have yet to be answered.

I agree – but that kind of debate is too intellectual for TV probably. The BBC’s debate at the Hydro with 12,000 schoolkids is equally daft.

http://news.stv.tv/scotland/280474-orange-lodge-officially-registers-as-supporter-of-referendum-no-vote/

Well there’s a surprise…

Well there’s a surprise…

What’s a surprise ?

That the Orange Lodge is unionist ?

That, according to your link : It is understood the cross-party pro-Union organisation “firmly rejected” a written request by the Grand Orange Lodge of Scotland asking to join their campaign.?

Or that you have been forced to scrape the bottom of the barrel as you abandon all attempts to provide a carefully thought out and compelling argument in favour of Scottish ‘independence’ ?

To be honest I don’t find any of those three things surprising.

We’ve gone though the debate thing right at the start of the thread. It’s too easy for AS to manipulate a debate into a Scotland v England argument if it’s the PM.

Or that you have been forced to scrape the bottom of the barrel as you abandon all attempts to provide a carefully thought out and compelling argument in favour of Scottish ‘independence’ ?

I didn’t know that’s what you wanted. I can give you lots of good reasons if you’re actually interested.