Muslim Folks: help me defeat this xenophobic nonsense

Elaborating a little on what I said before (now I’m awake),

Ernie used examples of Turkey and Saudi to pick apart what I said. This is a straw man; far as I know, the people I see daily wearing traditional muslim garb aren’t from either of these countries. Would a woman be free to wear a bikini in Pakistan without fear of comment (or worse); or would they be expected to conform?

It’s the double standards I was questioning. We don’t demand that women of whatever foreign descents conform to western ideals, but we take it as read that we’ll have to compromise without question when roles are reversed. If we’re being accommodating, is it too much to ask to be accommodated back in return?

xenophobic nonsense?

Excellent point, questioning antisocial symbols of oppression favoured by a single demographic of people is exactly the same situation as a fear and hatred of all things foreign.

I initially read the thread title as Mulsim Forks and wondered if religious bike parts were the new niche of choice

That said….. If someone can give me a valid reason, religious or otherwise for wearing a balaclava into a bank, I’d be interested to hear it.

It’s the double standards I was questioning. We don’t demand that women of whatever foreign descents conform to western ideals, but we take it as read that we’ll have to compromise without question when roles are reversed. If we’re being accommodating, is it too much to ask to be accommodated back in return?

Yup, there is a double standard in that in this country we are more tolerant and accepting of other cultures than a brutal theocracy or a near-failed state where religious extremists hold great sway.

I don’t really see how that has any relevance to people here who choose to wear a niqab or burka. Seems a bit like holding them responsible for the actions of other people in the country they used to live in (or their parents did).

That said….. If someone can give me a valid reason, religious or otherwise for wearing a balaclava into a bank, I’d be interested to hear it.

Hmmm, it’s January, the heating isn’t working (in the bank) and you’re cold!

If someone can give me a valid reason, religious or otherwise for wearing a balaclava into a bank, I’d be interested to hear it.

You may be indescribably ugly and scare small children with your fearsome countenance. There are people around here for whom that alone should be reason enough for them to wear a balaclava in public. 😀

But only an idiot (or a painfully liberal “progressive” one) would see this as anything other than oppression and misogyny at work.

Well we have cited the Koran and the reasons it gives – oddly it does not mention the things you say. I guess all the people who do it are idiots and painfully progressive Liberals – that will come as a shock to the Taliban but hey thanks for the info 🙄
People keep having ludicrous positions then saying anyone who disagrees is an idiot – odd.

You should look at the real reasons behind this and not half arsed examples of women who “choose” to cover their faces.

The Koran has been cited- oh the westerner non Muslim knows the real reason- why not force it on women to liberate them 🙄

After all if I gave you an example of a Pakistani who thinks its funny and acceptable to be called a “****” by his mates then you would be rightly horrified.

Someone can do as they please – I would let them choose whether I approved or not. The same as the veil its not my choice to make.

You should extend the same indignation to women here and abroad.

I have, I let them choose
You are the one with the contradictory position of telling me its bad to oppress women and force them to wear clothes of your choosing and then choosing to force them to wear clothes of your choosing. If its bad dont do it. Oh I forgeot your way of forcing them liberates them but the other lots way is oppressive.

The veil has no place in British society it’s completely counter to what we believe about the rights of women and so forth

As far as I am aware we don’t have a view that says a lady cannot cover her face if she so chooses.*
I ride with someone who wears a buff over her face in winter – shall I liberate herself from herself because her actions run counter to what we believe?

The veil is not about personal choice it’s an insidious device for the oppression of some muslim women.

Your right what they need is a western male non muslim with no understanding of their reasons to free them by insidiously oppressing them to wear the clothes you choose for them instead. Its a ridiculous position to have – both sides tell women what to do in order to “protect” them. Let the women choose what they want to wear.

If we’re being accommodating, is it too much to ask to be accommodated back in return?

Well a meat eater had a veggie meal at your house – are you going to accommodate them and eat meat at theirs?
A meat eater has no rules about eating a veggie meal just like we have no rules about veils.

* FWIW lets not kid ourselves here that society is somehow free here. Much of the liberation of women is relatively recent. For example we had to enforce equal pay a mere 40 years ago and still the disparity in pay exists. Lets get our own house in order whilst we present ourselves as paragon to the world.

God said so is no longer a reasonable defence.
edit,that applies to that **** Blair as well.

It’s the double standards I was questioning.

Cougar, you can’t apply the same reasoning to both things, because they don’t each carry the same weight.

It’s the double standards I was questioning. We don’t demand that women of whatever foreign descents conform to western ideals, but we take it as read that we’ll have to compromise

1) it’s not a double standard at all. The western ideal is that people choose what they wear when they get up in the morning. It’s open to everyone in the UK (well, apart from kids, prisoners, soldiers and nudists, I suppose). If you choose to wear a mankini, that’s up to you. If you’re a wee free that wears a long skirt and headscarf, that’s up to you too. If you don’t like burkas, don’t wear one.

2) it’s not a double standard at all because what happens in the UK isn’t some sort of reciprocal deal with everywhere else in the world. WGAF what happens in Saudi or Iran? Their lawmakers are a bunch of tossers for legislating women what they can wear. Why fall into the same trap in the UK?

Your “point” is just knuckle-dragging lounge-bar toss.

Well we have cited the Koran and the reasons it gives – oddly it does not mention the things you say. I guess all the people who do it are idiots and painfully progressive Liberals – that will come as a shock to the Taliban but hey thanks for the info

So work of fiction in not being accurate shocker 🙄

The Koran has been cited

So you agree that this is the reason? or do you think that there maybe other reasons at play?

Someone can do as they please – I would let them choose whether I approved or not

So you would ignore overt racism would you under the guise of “individual freedom”

And you accuse me of double standards.

You are the one with the contradictory position of telling me its bad to oppress women and force them to wear clothes of your choosing and then choosing to force them to wear clothes of your choosing.

Who mentioned force? your copy and paste skills are unrivaled so you should easily be able to find the quote?

Oh I forgeot your way of forcing them liberates them but the other lots way is oppressive.

Again this “force” thing. In fact a lot of your argument hinges on it, doesnt it?

I ride with someone who wears a buff over her face in winter – shall I liberate herself from herself because her actions run counter to what we believe?

Whose the “we” here? I like Buffs, is her Buff a sign of oppression in this instance?

When I use the term “liberate” I mean a persons freedom to choose without any pressures. Most reasonable people would accept that face covering in this instance is not a “free” choice in the same way that most people would agree that forced marriage is a bad thing despite the fact that we could all find examples of women who apparently claim it is a good thing and have long relationships afterwards.
That is my position and trying to add your veneer of “liberation” is a cop out.

konabunny – Member

1) it’s not a double standard at all. The western ideal is that people choose what they wear when they get up in the morning. It’s open to everyone in the UK (well, apart from kids, prisoners, soldiers and nudists, I suppose). If you choose to wear a mankini, that’s up to you. If you’re a wee free that wears a long skirt and headscarf, that’s up to you too. If you don’t like burkas, don’t wear one.

Critical hit!

2) it’s not a double standard at all because what happens in the UK isn’t some sort of reciprocal deal with everywhere else in the world. WGAF what happens in Saudi or Iran? Their lawmakers are a bunch of tossers for legislating women what they can wear. Why fall into the same trap in the UK?

Indeed. It’s like the weird logic when people are talking about ‘well you’d get your head chopped off for saying something similar back in Saudi Arabia, so why do we put up with it here?’

What are they advocating there exactly? That we should demonstrate the wonders of our superior civilised society by becoming more like the one that we are slagging off for being backward. Eh? 😕

(probably haven’t explained that very well)

Most reasonable people would accept that face covering in this instance is not a “free” choice…

I think that might be an assumption too far for me.

Most reasonable people

This term is usually a cover for ‘my opinion which I’ve decided should be shared by everyone else’.

FWIW I don’t feel at all comfortable with the idea of the burqa/niqab and certainly not if people are being pressured into wearing them – but I feel far, far more uncomfortable with the idea of banning them.

I think it’s entirely plausible, for instance, that some women might find it a bit of a relief to not be ogled by blokes while wearing one.

Should this be banned too btw? Or is it just the Muslims that shouldn’t be allowed to wear stuff like that?

Most reasonable people would accept that face covering in this instance is not a “free” choice…

I think that might be an assumption too far for me.

Me too, but having said that, if women have been living in a society that has conditioned them into making this “free” choice. Is it really a “free” choice?

You could use that argument for the West- is that any more “free” as all societies have cultural norms.
Men hear dont wear skirts as rule but there is no real reason for it. Do you feel oppressed by this or are you conditioned to just not bother and fit in?

Surfer yes the Koran is unlikely to be true but it is till the main reason that the Muslims dress how they dress. Whether it is true or false does not alter this fact.
Yes IMHO other cultural factors within the region did influence the dress code but a muslim dresses like a “muslim” because they are a Muslim.

So you would ignore overt racism would you under the guise of “individual freedom”

And you accuse me of double standards.
Straw man as I never said that. It would be better if you could explain how you telling them how to dress is the best response to someone telling them how to dress. Can you do that please whilst explaining how it is not a double standard? Should be entertaining.

Re force – if the veil is banned how are they not forced ? You are so keen on mocking my style [ quite well FWIW] that you have forgotten to make a coherent sensible argument.

When I use the term “liberate” I mean a persons freedom to choose without any pressures. Most reasonable people would accept that face covering in this instance is not a “free” choice

That is what they have t as not every Muslim does*. As other notes “most reasonable people” is a poor term as most reasonable Muslims [ and some unreasonable ones to be fair]would not agree with you. The EDl agree with you as well and I would nto call them reasonable either

For the sake of fueluing an argument I am not suggesting you support the EDL

* I am sure some women [ Muslim and non Muslim] are forced to dress a certain way by others but I dont think us forcing them to dress a certain way is the solution to this problem

Me too, but having said that, if women have been living in a society that has conditioned them into making this “free” choice. Is it really a “free” choice?

That’s a different issue altogether.

Just out of interest, when Christian women cover their hair, is that a form of oppression too? Should we ban that as well?

That’s a different issue altogether.

That told me!

Quite a few Munters about who should be fforced to wear one IMHO

Kinda sorry I started this now but here goes:

All this talk of oppression is wrong headed in my view.

A portion of muslim women choose to wear a veil. They do this entirely of their own free will as an expression of their identity and in keeping with their religious and social beliefs about public modesty.

And they are quite rightly insulted by the notion that they are poor feeble women who must be rescued from their oppressive boorish misogynist husbands by the wise and noble non-muslim westerners.

Now I fully accept that it is possible that a portion of Muslim women in the UK do feel forced to wear veils and do feel oppressed by it. But surely that is an entirely different issue?

I’m quite sure there are also women in the UK who feel forced into getting a piercing or a tattoo, whose husbands force them to wear short skirts, or stay at home while he goes to the pub every night. But no one suggests that banning piercings, tattoos, short skirts or pubs is the answer!

I really don’t see how introducing a law which says “You need to wear less clothes so we can objectify you properly” would be a step forward for feminism or freedom.

if women have been living in a society that has conditioned them into making this “free” choice. Is it really a “free” choice?

Without wanting to get too far into the philosophy of free will, the exact same thing could be said for every choice you ever make!

I’m quite sure there are also women in the UK who feel forced into getting a piercing or a tattoo, whose husbands force them to wear short skirts, or stay at home while he goes to the pub every night. But no one suggests that banning piercings, tattoos, short skirts or pubs is the answer!

That’s a good point, I guess we’re focussing on the symptom, rather than the cause, and also making an assumption that there is a cause that needs to be tackled, when in reality there may not be.

I think it is such an emoptive issue because of the bluntness and obvious segregation of the clothing. Not segregation between genders or cultures, but between the person wearing it and the outside world. The communication barrier the veil creates makes it more emotive than any other kind of clothing and this does more to foster fear/suspicion than anything else.

Without wanting to get too far into the philosophy of free will, the exact same thing could be said for every choice you ever make!

Yeah I realise that. Probably one for another thread eh?!

its a real hot potato innit. personal freedom versus intimidating/offending.

I’d personally go with France, that religions should be more like ‘a hobby’ than an intrinsic part of what you ‘are’. trouble is, that doesn’t sit well with some religions.

DenDennis – Member

I’d personally go with France, that religions should be more like ‘a hobby’ than an intrinsic part of what you ‘are’. trouble is, that doesn’t sit well with some any religions.

It kind of misses the entire point of religion tbh. I’m not religious but it’s nothing at all like a hobby, if you’re doing it right, it’s a foundation stone of the person you are.

Burkas are an over-zealous interpretation of the Quran anyway, deliberately so in order for the men to continue to subjugate the women in Islamic countries – so I’m all for banning them.

@northwind- exactly,
but who’s doing it right?
i know many jews who eat bacon, muslims who drink alcohol and dont always pray 5 times a day.

as an arbiter I think perhaps the most devout should decide-
here’s osama aged 15.

I think I’ve got that album somewhere.

Just musing
and maybe got my facts all wrong but….
In the 60s weren’t bras identified by feminists as implements of sexism for repressing women everywhere? hence bra burning and more than usual jiggling went on for a while until women decided “actually you know what they’re not a bad idea”?

That’s a different issue altogether.

That told me! kind of is tho isn’t it. As junkyard said we’ve all (mostly, ignoring that kilt stuff) been indoctrinated that skirts are not acceptable leg/bottom wear for blokes. We’re all conditioned. Apparently you can’t objectively critique other cultures, your own bias will always skew it.

first rule of anthropology that DONK or else you end up saying things like this about cultures you know little about.

Burkas are an over-zealous interpretation of the Quran anyway, deliberately so in order for the men to continue to subjugate the women in Islamic countries – so I’m all for banning them.

Re bra burning at a Miss World pageant where they threw female products [ false eyelashes. hair curlers etc- stuff associated with beauty] into a trash can including bras to burn – mimicking vietnam draft dodgers burning their draft cards. The police stopped them actually having a fire. I dont know if it ever happened but it must have somewhere.

kind of is tho isn’t it. As junkyard said we’ve all (mostly, ignoring that kilt stuff) been indoctrinated that skirts are not acceptable leg/bottom wear for blokes. We’re all conditioned. Apparently you can’t objectively critique other cultures, your own bias will always skew it.

All true DONK. I think though that you can objectively critique other cultures if you’re aware of your own bias and if you’re willing to have your views challenged by those who have a different perspective. Much like this thread really.

Don’t flame me for the source, but a quick Google on braburning:

http://womenshistory.about.com/od/mythsofwomenshistory/a/bra_burning.htm

Not techsavvy enough to make proper links. 🙄

Edit – Oh, it does it automatically! How clever.

Straw man as I never said that

When I gave you a hypothetical example of a Pakistani being called a “****” by his mates and then claiming he was fine with it you responded with something along the lines that you would have no problem etc as it was his choice. I on the other hand would find that unacceptable in spite of the fact that he doesnt.
This is an important point and I went on to add later hypothetical examples of victims of forced marriage who thought arranged marriages were a good thing.
The question is if these were real examples (and I could find actual ones) would you think that both practices were acceptable? I for one would not.
Would we find female genital mutilation acceptable if we found victims of it who did?

It would be better if you could explain how you telling them how to dress is the best response to someone telling them how to dress. Can you do that please whilst explaining how it is not a double standard? Should be entertaining.

Well at least you are removing the force/compulsion aspect of your previous argument which you accused me of (but found no evidence of!) but you are creating another straw man. Are you saying that me wanting to remove the compulsion and pressure that women feel to wear a body/face covering is on a equal par with those wanting to force it upon them? Are you saying they are equal evils?

if the veil is banned how are they not forced

I didnt say ban it.

And in the interest of not fueling the argument that you werent creating 🙄 alligning me with the EDL is a really cheap trick but if thats the way you debate.

This term is usually a cover for ‘my opinion which I’ve decided should be shared by everyone else’.

I agree, I take it back 😳

Would we find female genital mutilation acceptable if we found victims of it who did?

Well… it’s pretty easy to find victims of male genital mutilation who seem quite happy about it.

I didnt say ban it.

Okay. Many others have mentioned banning though. If you don’t think a ban is the answer (and I don’t) then how do you want “to remove the compulsion and pressure that women feel to wear a body/face covering”? And what about those women that don’t feel forced and wear it through free choice?

alligning me with the EDL is a really cheap trick but if thats the way you debate.

How exactly would you have liked me to make it clearer that I was not doing that 🙄
Face palm

How exactly would you have liked me to make it clearer that I was not doing that

Maybe by not mentioning it? Face palm indeed

Ok next time I will not mention that i am not comparing you to the EDL when I point out they agree with you.