Muslim Folks: help me defeat this xenophobic nonsense

going back to the OP, if the implication from the image is that one might be ‘scary’ or a ‘terrorist’, as a resident of the good old united kingdom of great britain and northern ireland, I know which I’d think would be more likely to be bombing innocent civilians 😯

(little bit of politics for ya!)

I’m all for religion of all kinds being gone so my position is probably not going to find any common ground with any religious teaching TBH. Not much point in arguing degrees of oppression as I think the whole thing is a crock. I know a line when I’m sold it. Perhaps you can tell me the modest Muslim line on Apostasy?

Given that all religions are based on works of fiction written at various times in the past then I don’t think any religion should be able to claim special cases as to how they dress.

I explained why I posted it up

You made some nonsensical statement about locking your door (I think it might have been what you commonly refer to as a straw man) was that your explanation?

And it says quite clearly that they should cover up “so as not to be annoyed” who do you think is doing the annoying if not men? Maybe mountain weasels?

chrismac – Member

Given that all religions are based on works of fiction written at various times in the past then I don’t think any religion should be able to claim special cases as to how they dress.

Wot, not even Pastafarians??

OP – apologies for arriving late but in the interests of security, e.g, identification on passports and other such documents, airport-security etc, what is the difference in those head-coverings in your OP? Not being funny, just interested.

JY. Re the matter of dispute, the BBC religion website goes through the dispute quite well both in terms of what the prophet said and how this should be applied in Islamic and secular societies. So IMO, yes, still a matter of debate/dispute.

DenDennis – Member

going back to the OP, if the implication from the image is that one might be ‘scary’ or a ‘terrorist’, as a resident of the good old united kingdom of great britain and northern ireland, I know which I’d think would be more likely to be bombing innocent civilians

(little bit of politics for ya!)

Simple really …

1. For security reason we need to check the person to confirm who they say they are so we need to see their face.

2. For security reason we need to make sure they are not bank robbers etc …

3. Regardless of religion there is no Muslamic Kingdom in the UK in the past and the closest was in Southern Spain long time ago. So this community does not need to comply with their way of life but as liberals we are just accommodating them out of respect. Give a person an inch s/he will want a mile if s/he is not the understanding type. As for our past empire that’s different story because our guns and ammo are stronger.

Therefore, can I wear my mankini now? 🙄

You made some nonsensical statement about locking your door (I think it might have been what you commonly refer to as a straw man) was that your explanation?

You claimed the reason for the dress code and I gave you the quotes from the Koran
Pray explain how that is a straw man 🙄
A straw man is to misrepresent what you say and argue against that – like say when you asked me about Free will for example or your quote above

annoyed

Well your poor arguments annoyed me – does this mean you have enraged me with lust ?

he BBC religion website goes through the dispute quite well both in terms of what the prophet said and how this should be applied in Islamic and secular societies

LINKY?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/islam/beliefs/niqab_1.shtml

this is about whether it should be veil or Full covering – I agree there is some debate on that issue of exactly what should be covered and it ranges. I know a [small minority] of muslim women who wear neither for example.

Read the whole link (!) it’s more than just that.

going back to the OP, if the implication from the image is that one might be ‘scary’ or a ‘terrorist’, as a resident of the good old united kingdom of great britain and northern ireland, I know which I’d think would be more likely to be bombing innocent civilians

So you think one of those in the OP is more likely than the other to bomb innocents…How come?

It’s quite right that we should tolerate religious beliefs and customs in the interests of integration, even when they contradict established laws, customs, security or social norms. After all, a western woman would be perfectly fine walking around an Islamic country wearing a bikini.

… Oh.

[/quote]My view is that it is pointless to question their religion/view as you have no rights to do so and you can’t change their rules or way of life.

It is for their women to fight back or to stand up to them rather than letting outsiders intervene in their way of life/community/world.

Utter Piffle; we should rightly question any abuse of power or influence, regardless of how that power or influence is gained e.g. a husband over his wife or a priest over his flock.

However, I will concede that it is correct that people should be able to dress how they want and it is also true as alluded to that some women say they choose to wear a face veil. My argument is that whilst I can choose to wear an orange jumpsuit and handcuffs, why would I dress in a way that usually signifies some of my rights have been taken away from me – there really is nothing in the Koran that says they have to cover their faces.

With regards to your second point that if the women are oppressed they should be left to fight back themselves without support, I strongly disagree. You only need to do a bit of reading on forced marriages, acid attacks, and FGM to realise that there are severe problems with women’s rights in several UK communities that do need outside help and support to banish. Whilst perhaps on its own the full face veil isn’t quite the same as those examples it is a form of misogynistic oppression/control all the same.

You claimed the reason for the dress code and I gave you the quotes from the Koran
Pray explain how that is a straw man

Well as you well know I was referring to this “explanation”

Its not this at all anymore than me lockingmmy door when I go in my house says that every person outside is a scary robber.

The clue was actually in the paragraph that you then quoted, you know the bit about a nonsensical statement about locking your door.(I guess you didn’t bother reading it).

Well your poor arguments annoyed me – does this mean you have enraged me with lust ?

And now a straw man and an ad hominem in one sentence.

Cougar – Moderator

After all, a western woman would be perfectly fine walking around an Islamic country wearing a bikini.

… Oh.

Are bikinis banned in Turkey then ? Or is that the wrong sort of Islamic country – did you perhaps mean Saudi Arabia ?

Do you think our attitudes should reflect Saudi attitudes ? It would be remarkable if you did imo.

Don’t be obtuse.

The point I was getting at in what I thought was a mildly humorous manner was that there should be balance. Either when one is in a given country one abides by its established customs, or one is free to ignore them and practice their own beliefs. Superficially I don’t overly care which one we pick so long as we all pick the same one and agree to it.

When as a nation we’re expected to both allow people to do what they like irrespective of established social norms and also throw away our own personal belief systems when we visit other countries, we have an imbalance. Pick one, you can’t have it both ways. Is it correct for a country to allow people freedom of choice even if that choice is a symbol of oppression generally incompatible with established conventions, or is it correct for a country to expect all citizens and visitors there to abide by the rules of that country?

I don’t have the answer to that question, there’s pros and cons to both (though I’d like to think that we’ve mostly got it right here). But whilst that disparity exists, then racist horseshit fiction like the image in the OP will flourish.

Which is a shame.

And now a straw man and an ad hominem in one sentence.

Well you claimed

it’s a religious instruction to cover up so that men don’t become enraged with lust.

you used “annoyed” as your evidence. I agree its a straw man – then again its your argument so its not my problem.
PS It would be hard to do an ad hom on you when I only mention myself.
It was a reductio ad absurdum.

Anyway its clear the koran does not say dress like that to stop men being enraged with lust and you can, rather ironically, fallaciously throw around fallacies or just conceed that point. I think we have established which you are going to do.
That claim is wrong however much you wish to do this to death.

When as a nation we’re expected to both allow people to do what they like irrespective of established social norms and also throw away our own personal belief systems when we visit other countries, we have an imbalance. Pick one, you can’t have it both way

It depends on how important the particular custom is. For a woman to voluntary wear a veil here is not a big deal. Not many people care either way what strangers are wearing – we don’t abide by religious rules or social norms that prevent it. However in Middle Eastern countries it IS a big deal, by their standards, to go around uncovered.

I think it better to take each situation as it comes, rather than make blanket rules.

Don’t be obtuse.

Oh I’m sorry, please accept my apologies. As for your waffle after that and your “I don’t have the answer to that question” dilemma, my position is very clear – I believe in both religious freedom and the right of people to choose their own life style choices without interference from me or anyone else. And I couldn’t give a toss what they do in other countries with respect to what we should do here in the UK.

Junkyard – lazarus

The dispute exists mainly for the non Muslim IME though I am far from an expert on it

Nah, it’s been a hot topic in islam for centuries.- different sects have different takes on it, some place it in different context than others too (I had to go and look it up but Maliki sunni don’t consider the face and hands to be intimate parts, frinstance.)

When as a nation we’re expected to both allow people to do what they like irrespective of established social norms and also throw away our own personal belief systems when we visit other countries, we have an imbalance. Pick one, you can’t have it both ways.

They are religious of course they want it both ways just like the chirch wants to be free from discrimination from the rest of society but still able to discriminate against gays.
Personally I would rather be above these regimes I dislike than act like them. Two wrongs dont make a right
I dont think dressing like that really offends us – its not that dissimilar from a nuns habit for example. the victorians would have loved it as well 😉

The reality is that western liberal tolerance means, much like freedom of speech, we need to defend it most when folk do things we disapprove of. Its their choice not ours.
You cannot say you cannot force women to dress like this you can only force them to dress like the way we approve of and think it makes sense as a position and it is freedom.

Not many people care either way what strangers are wearing

I suspect that given a choice, more people than “not many” would choose to have face-to-face interactions with people actually face to face. But like you I’m speculating.

As for your waffle

You really are unable to have a discussion without resorting to insults, aren’t you.

couldn’t give a toss what they do in other countries

Good for you. I on the other hand am quite concerned about systematic oppression in other countries.

@ Northwind

It amounts to the same as “dirty slag, dressing like that, she’s asking for it”. But it can equally be translated to mean more or less “If you dress respectably and as a woman of faith you will be recognised and treated as such”. It’s a matter of much dispute

Its a matter of dispute as I have accepted. It is not a matter of dispute for [ quite] the reason you state though.
I dont think Islamic scholars are using your first “” bit as they are mainly discussing what bits should be covered and by whom.

Cougar – Moderator

After all, a western woman would be perfectly fine walking around an Islamic country wearing a bikini.

… Oh.

How about men wearing mankini or tiny budgie smuggler? 😆

couldn’t give a toss what they do in other countries

Good for you. I on the other hand am quite concerned about oppression in other countries.

Oh nice one ….. you deliberately edit my comment to create the impression that I am making a completely different point.

Shall we have the unedited version ?

“And I couldn’t give a toss what they do in other countries with respect to what we should do here in the UK.[/b]“

You really are unable to have a discussion without resorting to insults, aren’t you.

Because of course you calling me obtuse was designed as a compliment ?

So you accusing me of being obtuse is fine, but me accusing you of waffling is an insult 🙄

People can wear what they want it has nothing to do with me or my tastes or preferences.
it’s not a fashion statement, it’s a religious instruction to cover up so that men don’t become enraged with lust. There is just no escaping that it is an example of misogyny in religion

Rather ot (but there’s a lack of liberalism here at the moment)
But you want to see a misogynistic culture? Go and have a look at the everyday sexism project. I’m amazed more women don’t dress like that with the rabid animals that there are on our streets.

Oh, I can’t be bothered. I’m going to bed, I’ll pick this up on page 12 in the morning.

There is an issue, and I’m not sure how to explain it without bringing the PC tribe down on my head, with the way that people emigrate into a liberal, hopefully less overtly sexist culture (although see the above…) yet persist in maintaining cultural traditions which are less liberal and more overtly sexist.

It probably centres around the idea of integration, although I don’t think any ethnic or cultural group integrates fully without losing their identity.

I know 2 women who refused the idea of an arranged marriage and have had to involve the police at various times to protect them from their families. I think if you choose to move to live in a country, you have to accept that traditions will change over time and over generations.

Ernie most threads I see you on someone makes that same point to you.

Its a shame you , mainly, just do this these days

crikey it is difficult for any person to integrate and how we accommodate this [ both sides] is a difficult balancing act. There will be give and take on both sides though the extremes of either side dont want to budge.
Perhaps we accept the veil and they stop arranged/forced* marriage and so called honour killings???? It may take more than one generation though.

* i know they are not the same thing and should not be interchanged

It’s quite right that we should tolerate religious beliefs and customs in the interests of integration, even when they contradict established laws, customs, security or social norms. After all, a western woman would be perfectly fine walking around an Islamic country wearing a bikini.
… Oh.

This is a very troll-ish/borderline bigoted thing for a moderator to be posting…

Mind you, one of the other moderators has decided he will carry on using the term ‘chinky’ despite having had it pointed out that it might be offensive/racist.

But you can see why they banned TJ. 😕

Just leave Muslin women alone. It’s absolutely normal that they want to be covered from head to toe in black blankets to prevent men from being tempted into adultery or rape (that is then blamed on the women regardless).

You want to refuse them a choice to liberate them.

But only an idiot (or a painfully liberal “progressive” one) would see this as anything other than oppression and misogyny at work. You should look at the real reasons behind this and not half arsed examples of women who “choose” to cover their faces. After all if I gave you an example of a Pakistani who thinks its funny and acceptable to be called a “****” by his mates then you would be rightly horrified.
You should extend the same indignation to women here and abroad.

is it correct for a country to expect all citizens and visitors there to abide by the rules of that country?

Sure – and one of the great rules of the UK, which has taken several hundred years to develop, for which many have died and been imprisoned, and the reasons for which have been written in blood, is that the state should not interfere in the personal choices of sane individuals. Or, to put it more bluntly, mind yer own farking business.

But the veil is state interference. It’s applied by theocratic states abroad and has been brought here by people from those countries. The veil has no place in British society it’s completely counter to what we believe about the rights of women and so forth. Just because the thing is the accepted norm in some societies doesn’t mean we should accept it here. The veil is not about personal choice it’s an insidious device for the oppression of some muslim women.

But the veil is state interference. It’s applied by theocratic states abroad and has been brought here by people from those countries. The veil has no place in British society it’s completely counter to what we believe about the rights of women and so forth. Just because the thing is the accepted norm in some societies doesn’t mean we should accept it here. The veil is not about personal choice it’s an insidious device for the oppression of some muslim women.

On the flip side, our tolerance and acceptance of other cultures is what allows us to rise above those theocratic, oppressive states and cultures???

Or, to put it more bluntly, mind yer own farking business.

Well I think the UK has developed by doing the exact opposite. Confronting oppression and brutality where it sees fit. Not by burying its head in the sand and ignoring the ill treatment of others.
Interesting interpretation of history yo have there.

As a group we need to decide what we find acceptable and legislate accordingly. For example FGM is a societal norm in many places yet we do not allow it here. The veil is certainly less emotive and clear cut than FGM but I believe is equally deserving of attention. What would the outcome of a ban actually be I wonder? What happened in France after their ban? Being accepting doesn’t mean accepting things we know to be crap.

Well I think the UK has developed by doing the exact opposite. Confronting oppression and brutality where it sees fit. Not by burying its head in the sand and ignoring the ill treatment of others. Interesting interpretation of history yo have there.

Blimey, said without a trace of irony! 😯

This is a very troll-ish/borderline bigoted thing for a moderator to be posting…

I’ve made this clear in other threads, but generally I’m posting in my capacity as a forum user, not a moderator. I don’t really see how that’s relevant (other than as a tool to throw stones at me); unless you’re suggesting that in my position as moderator I waive the right to have an opinion or take part in debates.

Arguably I should be setting an example but, meh. (-:

So, after 4 pages have any Muslim folk chipped in to defeat this xenophobic nonsense?