Muslim Folks: help me defeat this xenophobic nonsense

I would not think it unreasonable to be asked to remove it.

Me neither but I am not a devout female follower of Islam being asked to do something against my religious beliefs.

Thing is, if you require a positive identification of the person then what do you do? Fingerprints I suppose.

Seems that the “choice” or otherwise relating to wearing a Niqab generates plenty of debate in the Muslim community especially in relatively secular societies. Does it help/hinder, is it oppression/protection etc…Happy to leave that debate to those concerned personally.

The SDL argument falls over very quickly – where relevant/appropriate means to check identify of niqab wearers are in place, so the argument that they pretend to make is non-existent. Its the beauty of free speech – it allows the stupid to condemn themselves.

In your position Graham, I would simply ignore it.

GrahamS – Member
Isn’t it equally oppressive for women to be forced to wear revealing clothes and be judged solely on their looks?

Looking forward to Strictly then Graham!!!

Yet many women in a “modern secular country” CHOOSE to wear it.

Of course lot’s of women choose to wear skimpy clothes, starve themselves and have body altering surgery to obtain an ideal western body image.
It’s choice, but it choice based on peer pressure. Just like covering up.
I’m not sure either’s particular healthy. But without out peer pressure you have no society. All too complicated for me really.

Isn’t it equally oppressive for women to be forced to wear revealing clothes and be judged solely on their looks?

Sorry Graham!!! Didn’t read the rest of your post! 🙂

In your position Graham, I would simply ignore it.

Too late – I’m now one cousin down. 🙁

Looking forward to Strictly then Graham!!!

I enjoy looking a shapely lass in a revealing outfit as much as the next man – but that’s because I’m a modern secular oppressive pig 😀

It’s choice, but it choice based on peer pressure. Just like covering up.
I’m not sure either’s particular healthy.

I’d agree with that, but I don’t think the solution is to make laws than ban women from covering up!

Do we really want laws to say: “If you want to live in the UK then you can’t cover yourself up. You’ll be sexually objectified like everyone else. It’s the British way.”

😕

bencooper – Member
It’s based on a false premise. There’s no law against wearing a balaclava or a niqab – neither will get you arrested. But if you wear either, you might need to remove it to prove your identity. Simple.

This ^^^ kills it. Usual xenophobic bollocks based on a misunderstanding of the law.

Do we really want laws to say: “If you want to live in the UK then you can’t cover yourself up. You’ll be sexually objectified like everyone else. It’s the British way.”

<dons budgie smugglers>

Objectify away, laydeez!

Trying some kind of reasoned argument with someone stupid enough to post / share stuff like this is wasting your time. Do you really want to get into a public argument with your cousin.

Unfriend him or just change the settings to dumb down his(her?) posts from your feed.

As I said to her, I like(d) hearing her “normal” news. If Facebook had an option for “Everything, except hate speech” then I’d have gladly ticked it.

But moot point now anyway – as I’ve been de-friended and possibly de-cousined. 🙁

Oh well.

I leave this here for anyone that is still on the “Muslim women need rescued from the oppressive veil” thought train:
http://idealmuslimah.com/dress/niqaab/239-the-niqab-fact-v-fiction-

It is remarkably easy to block the content of any given ‘friend’ on your list. Only half a dozen of my ‘friends’ nonsense actually gets anywhere near my news feed.

Only half a dozen of my ‘friends’ nonsense actually gets anywhere near my news feed.

Yeah but I liked hearing most of her nonsense. How her kids are getting on, what she’s up to etc. It was just the BNP-lite stuff I wasn’t too keen on!

I think the face covering should be banned.

Seeing fat middle-aged men in lycra out on a bike ride – I wish a more of them covered up.

Has anyone ever been served in a shop,travel agents ,petrol station or Indian restaurant by a lady wearing a veil?
Probably not. Would you employ a lady in a veil,probably not.
I can’t see how veiled women are free to be part of our society.
Of course veiled women can do whatever they please. Whether their husbands could live with the dishonour of their actions can sometimes only be the nearest acid bottle away.

Religious choice should not over rule law and security requirements. I’m sure most companies/institutions are able to handle these things sensitively and respectively. It’s within their interests to do so.

However the whole burqa thing looks even more rediculous when you spend time in the Middle East. There you’ll see the wife covered up while the husband is in full western regalia, Bermuda shorts, vest, sandles. It just looks rediculous and highlights the inequality there is regarding women in these cultures who obey (sometimes willingly, sometimes not, lets be realistict) religious rules created by men. There is nothing in the religion of Islam that requires women to cover up their face. It’s an extreme interpretation. But live and let live, they don’t agree with our ‘western decadence’, alcohol consumption and love of Pig products. Each to their own.

Has anyone ever been served in a shop,travel agents ,petrol station or Indian restaurant by a lady wearing a veil?

It would be rather inappropriate for a strict Muslim fundamentalist woman to have a job. If it’s important for them to cover their faces then it is probably inappropriate for them to have a job. Which goes some way in explaining your observation.

Of course veiled women can do whatever they please.

That’s nice

Oh I’m soery ,its inappropriate for them to have a job.
Nothing like freedom of choice is there?
Its inappropriate for some woman to enjoy sex so it’s ok to ship them off to Somalia for a bit of surgery.

No need to apoligise, it’s not for you to decide whether they should cover their faces or have a job, although I’m sure you think it is. Despite claiming “Of course veiled women can do whatever they please”.

Meanwhile, in the real world… Working in a bank, what we did if someone came in with a niqab, was politely ask them to show their face to a female member of staff so they could be identified, otherwise they would not be served. It is really that simple.

Yes the veil could be forced on a woman- it does happen. But would banning it prevent that? Or would it meant that the sort of total **** that enforces it on a woman against their will, would simply not allow said woman out alone? Unintended consequences.

I was being sarcastic with that comment.
Many veiled women are not free to do whatever they please.

I’m always interested in why people defend the veil so readily and make significant assumptions about anyone who thinks there is a case for trying to see them phased out.

There are many things that religon has historically imposed on both men and women. I believe that the veil is something that we ought to not accept for a number of reasons, not just in the UK but globally. From all I’ve read it goes hand in hand with other more oppressive behaviours like FGM. To become indignant about criticism of the veil seems a poorly thought out position. The veil isn’t about choice and to argue it is shows a real lack of understanding.

And many unveiled women are not free to do whatever they please.

It is perfectly possible for a woman in Britain to willingly choose to follow a strict version of Islam, which includes covering their faces and not having paid employment.

And many unveiled women are not free to do whatever they please.

So lets also call out all those other restriction of freedom, instead of using them to protect this one.

What does that have to do with the veil? That’s a strawman argument of the most transparent kind. In it’s simplest form either you think the veil is an idea we ought to leave behind us or you don’t. I believe we should, it’s horrible.

I’m always interested in why people defend the veil so readily

Not sure anyone has what I have said , and others, is it is their choice. It is stupid to object to imposing a dress code on someone and then impose a dress code on someone as your solution.

The veil isn’t about choice and to argue it is shows a real lack of understanding.

It is perfectly possible for a woman to choose freely to wear one. I am sure many women wear clothes they do not wish to for the benefit of their spouse [ both conservative and exotic]. I am not sure how you wish society to stop this tbh or why I have the right to decide what is and is not ok for them to wear. To imply none have a choice – are all Islamic women in one ?- whilst suggesting others lack understanding shows a huge lack of understanding
You may disagree with the position but it is a perfectly reasonable one

People can wear what they want it has nothing to do with me or my tastes or preferences.

Hmmm…

(ps, what has religion got to do with Xenophobia?)

These threads serve no purpose other than to give the STW die-hards another opportunity to toss each other off whilst sat on their invented high horses.

And Ernie stop pretending you’re a forward thinking liberal when you’re in fact a self confessed far lefty.

Zippykona tell us which veiled woman you know that isn’t free to do what she wants ?

These threads serve no purpose other than to give the STW die-hards another opportunity to toss each other off whilst sat on their invented high horses.

And Ernie stop pretending you’re a forward thinking liberal when you’re in fact a self confessed far lefty.

Well thank god you decided to come along and share your wisdom, but as everyone knows ernie is a lefty, you spunked your load rather premeturley.

Of course it appears on the face of it a free choice but I believe that it isn’t. I believe indoctrination of children is what leads to the veil being acceptable and even argued for by the very people it demeans. To me it’s similar to a JW refusing life saving treatment and 100% believing that it’s correct to do so. Education and time will see the veil gone but it does require people to speak out and say it’s not right. There is a world of difference between choosing what to wear and wearing the veil. Avoiding the subject and calling it freedom of choice is cowardly.

People can wear what they want it has nothing to do with me or my tastes or preferences.

it’s not a fashion statement, it’s a religious instruction to cover up so that men don’t become enraged with lust. There is just no escaping that it is an example of misogyny in religion.

Wear whatever you like but just don’t blame others when they want to check your for identification i.e. the same person … 🙄

Try wearing full face helmet into a bank in the far east you will get pump action welcoming you. 😆

lalazar – Member
Zippykona tell us which veiled woman you know that isn’t free to do what she wants ?

POSTED 12 MINUTES AGO # REPORT-POST

“We appeal to the public that they ensure that women observe purdah [cover their heads and faces] in public places. If we spot any woman without purdah we will sprinkle acid on her face. If we spot any girl using a mobile phone, she will be shot dead,”

signed by al-Qaeda Mujahideen and referring to another group, Lashkar e al-Qaeda.
Sorry ,I don’t personally know any of the individuals involved.

There is a world of difference between choosing what to wear and wearing the veil. Avoiding the subject and calling it freedom of choice is cowardly.

Meanwhile on some other thread we have people dictating that it’s totally unacceptable to not turn up to a business meeting not wearing a suit.
It’s a complicated business this clothing lark.

Personally I find people covering their face whilst talking to me rude, in much the same way as I find people who don’t take sunglasses off when they talk rude. So I tend to avoid talking to either, but that’s just my personal foible. I’d be unhappy with a law requiring the oppressed fashion victims to remove their glasses though.

it’s a religious instruction to cover up so that men don’t become enraged with lust.

Its not this at all anymore than me lockingmmy door when I go in my house says that every person outside is a scary robber.
FWIW the Koranic verses[ I assume you know it well] are listed here
http://www.comp.leeds.ac.uk/nora/html/33-59.html

Of course it appears on the face of it a free choice

Because it is – they dont have to be a Muslim nor be that type of Muslim even if I disaprove

but I believe that it isn’t.

Praise be to Allah we have you to make the rules for women rather than Allah – free from indoctrination in liberal western values concerning appropriate dress for women

There is a world of difference between choosing what to wear and wearing the veil.

IN some cases yes there is but not in the majority and not even close

Avoiding the subject and calling it freedom of choice is cowardly.

Bit emotive there tbh and no one is avoiding the issue but you are distorting “facts” to support your view.

Some women are oppressed, some of them wear a veil some of them dont.
You want to refuse them a choice to liberate them.

IanMunro – Member
Personally I find people covering their face whilst talking to me rude, in much the same way as I find people who don’t take sunglasses off when they talk rude. So I tend to avoid talking to either, but that’s just my personal foible. I’d be unhappy with a law requiring the oppressed fashion victims to remove their glasses though

Well, it’s rather simple for me if they cover their face while talking to me I either speak to them in a foreign language, or I just point to the floor in an abstract way while quietly walking away.

As for those wearing sunglasses I say to them they are not Elvis.

😆

p/s: coming from a Muslamic world we hardly interact with those wearing full veil … they have their own world.

So from your link

O Prophet! Tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks (veils) all over their bodies (i.e.screen themselves completely except the eyes or one eye to see the way). That will be better, that they should be known (as free respectable women) so as not to be annoyed. And Allah is Ever Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

They should cover up so as not to be annoyed. Are you really posting that as a defence of free will? It is not even directed at women, “Tell your wives and daughters” It is instructing men to make women to cover up. 🙄

Any links for the equal rules that apply to men in Islam, just so we can be sure it’s is after all fair and equal and not at all misogynistic.

If you’re a believer then I am sure you don’t feel oppressed that was pretty much my point. If people are brought up to believe that the best way to avoid unwanted male attention is to wear protective gear then we seem to be missing the point. It reminds me of the crash helmets thing freedom to choose soon becomes compulsion and soon after, normalised rightly or wrongly.

I don’t like the strict teachings of Islam, it all seems way too demeaning and as we know Islam means submission and obedience, so F A T.

MSP – Member

They should cover up so as not to be annoyed. Are you really posting that as a defence of free will? It is not even directed at women, “Tell your wives and daughters” It is instructing men to make women to cover up.

Any links for the equal rules that apply to men in Islam, just so we can be sure it’s is after all fair and equal and not at all misogynistic.

My view is that it is pointless to question their religion/view as you have no rights to do so and you can’t change their rules or way of life.

It is for their women to fight back or to stand up to them rather than letting outsiders intervene in their way of life/community/world.

If they want to oppress their women that’s their problem but if they try to dictate their terms beyond their way of life/community/world to other people … then other should be able to intervene.

Or start a full scale heavy handed war annihilating all to kingdom come.

🙄

That is one possible translation. It amounts to the same as “dirty slag, dressing like that, she’s asking for it”. But it can equally be translated to mean more or less “If you dress respectably and as a woman of faith you will be recognised and treated as such”. It’s a matter of much dispute.

Are you really posting that as a defence of free will?

I explained why I posted it up

Shall I take the attempt to move the goalposts as you no longer wishing to argue that it is to stop men being enraged with lust ?

If people are brought up to believe that the best way to avoid unwanted male attention is to wear protective gear then we seem to be missing the point.

You are stating the wrong reason, its like you have been indoctrinated / brought up to believe something that is untrue

It’s a matter of much dispute

The dispute exists mainly for the non Muslim IME though I am far from an expert on it
Islam stresses modestly dressing for both genders and most folk I know treat it as an extension of that rule. Women should wear veils whilst men hats and grow beards at the more devout end or more accurately “virtous”.