Liz! Truss!

Some of you lot must be useless at interviewing people, “It says here that you robbed the last place you work at, at gunpoint. Fortunately for you I don’t believe in “predicting the future” and I firmly believe in giving people the benefit of the doubt. So lets give you a shot and see how you turn out. Oh by the way, can you remove the ski mask so we can get your work ID picture taken?”

Name a single thing any tory has ever done that improves the life of the less well off.

Lost an election.

Yes that makes sense – but they ought to know a loan based programme of support is not going to go down that well!

Normal negotiation though. Start low and then work your way up to a better offer. You never know you might get lucky with the dodgy offer and if they dont bite that, of course, is where the “source” approach comes in useful. It wasnt you whose name is against it but an anonymous “source” so you can try again without reprecussions.

So I’m going with the new offer doing the rounds – paid back with pretend taxation. (Meaning not paid back.)

All good by me for the time-being as that will be done with Q/E or whatever.

It validates MMT yet again offering a lens for prescriptive decisions that can be used in government. And that you don’t need taxation or borrowing to come first.

The Tories beat Labour in my opinion with their understanding of this. Sure they will scream about tax rises in the future but that will only ever be to control money supply.

All you need to know when the private sector fails the government can plug the gap with new money creation to a point.

It’s not all the answers but it’s an immediate fix.

Still want more details though.

Normal negotiation though. Start low and then work your way up to a better offer.

Right-o.

I’m not entirely sure what the difference is here between “cancelling” and “disagreeing,” can someone help me out?

I would say that attempts at backseat moderation and relentless personal attacks are a better fit for “cancelling” than “disagreeing”.

As #Truss prepares to ditch all the promises she made to Tory members during the leadership campaign, as many predicted this dedicated shape shifter would, Sunak & his allies must be feeling pretty sick.

— Ben Bradshaw (@BenPBradshaw) September 5, 2022

Well really?

I’m not sure I agree with the ‘give lizz a chance’ ultra far-right crowd on here.

She might be less diabolical or more diabolical than sunak /Johnson /insert other diabolical tory here… But it will still be utterly diabolical and a complete shit show and we all know it.

attempts at backseat moderation and relentless personal attacks

Oh, is this just about some people (including myself) moaning when the same few posters seem to want make every single political thread the same? Report our moaning if you like. All a bit handbags at dawn claiming that anyone is trying to cancel anything though.

rone
Full Member
It validates MMT yet again

It only validates MMT if you ignore the inflation we are also facing. Which is just as big a problem.

The further fall in the pound that’s likely it come doesn’t invalidate MMT, it’s a just a reminder that you can’t create money without negative effects unless you also pull some other strings…

Have you noticed inflation? It doesn’t validate MMT at all.

Don’t be ridiculous.

MMT is a description of the way government spending works – and too much government spending can be controlled by taxation.

We havent had too much government spending – hence everyrone is skint and the economoy is shrinking.

We have inflation on the supply side. This can’t be fixed by MMT based tools directly but MMT identifies the issue.

Inflation is much much more than too much money chasing too few goods. In fact look at the “too few goods part” of the ditty.

‘Cancelling’: insults, ridicule, ad homs, name-calling, moans
‘Disagreeing’: alternative evidence, arguments, analysis, comment

Not that difficult, is it?

The further fall in the pound that’s likely it come doesn’t invalidate MMT, it’s a just a reminder that you can’t create money without negative effects unless you also pull some other strings…

The fall in the pound is directly controlled by the buying and selling within the market place. There are massive issues at play here that you can’t really extrapolate – certainly not government spending in isolation so simply.

That £ has been falling way way before government did big spend via Q/E.

America spends plenty of government money too.

If moaning is cancelling… forums are dead.

America spends plenty of government money too.

The dollar is quite different to all other currencies.

Are comments getting deleted? If not, I can’t see how anyone could be accused of cancelling anything (other than maybe the usual suspects cancelling my enjoyment of yet another would-be interesting thread)

I would say that attempts at backseat moderation and relentless personal attacks are a better fit for “cancelling” than “disagreeing”.

We don’t need backseat moderation as we have frontseat moderation. The moderation team will also deal with any “relentless personal attacks” you care to report.

‘Cancelling’: insults, ridicule, ad homs, name-calling, moans
‘Disagreeing’: alternative evidence, arguments, analysis, comment

It’s funny, if it were the other way round they’d probably be screaming “snowflake” or “triggered” right about now.

I’m not sure I agree with the ‘give lizz a chance’ ultra far-right crowd on here.

There’s no point taking a loaded position before she enacts anything – you will have the ammo you need when she’s actually done something.

I’m pretty far on the left.

…they are clearly hoping that Truss will prove to be worse than Johnson.

Apparently it will be good for Labour.

But isn’t “least worst option” the whole basis of how political parties, policy, legislation etc. currently gets voted upon? Certainly since around the time, or just before the whole Brexit campaign started, rather than appealing to voters based on policy and merit, politicians from all sides seem to have fallen into a “at least we’re not as bad as those lot” style of campaigning.

There’s no point taking a loaded position before she enacts anything

I’m pretty far on the left.

I assumed the “far-right” tag was a tongue in cheek joke.

Our new PM is not a clean slate… she has been in government longer than anyone… she was part of the cabinet delivering all “this” going on around us now. The MPs that will vote with her from here on are already known, we’ve seen what they are like. By all means “wait and see”, but, personally, I’ve seen enough already and want her, and as many of her MPs as possible, out asap. She’ll get no benefit of the doubt from me. May her time as PM be cut as short as possible.

I haven’t compared her voting record to anyone else’s and I’ve no idea whether this information is being presented in any kind of a biased fashion but I found this to be interesting:

https://www.theyworkforyou.com/mp/24941/elizabeth_truss/south_west_norfolk/votes

And ultimately I would say in my opinion her voting record is toxic to the larger part of society. Possibly says as much about me, but hey ho…

you will have the ammo you need when she’s actually done something.

Yeah it seems like childish tribalism to attack someone for no other reason than the fact that they are a Tory. It’s not particularly smart and is unlikely to impress anyone.

In contrast having a focused analytical attack on specific policies whilst offering credible carefully thought out counterproposals is likely to be more productive.

Furthermore as the saying goes that even a broken clock is correct twice a day there is no guarantee that everything a Tory politician does is always wrong on every occasion. EG not everything Johnson did during the pandemic was wrong, thankfully.

No lack of demand for Gilts in £££

In case anyone was getting worried, UK not having any problems at all borrowing money in capital markets right now.
Just raised £3.5bn of 3yr gilts at 3.2%.
Cover ratio (this is important – it’s how many bids there were for each bond) pretty healthy at 2.6 times. pic.twitter.com/gwXqh0A1uN

— Ed Conway (@EdConwaySky) September 6, 2022

It’s not borrowing as such – but hey can’t have everything correct.

Yeah it seems like childish tribalism to attack someone for no other reason than the fact that they are a Tory. It’s not particularly smart and is unlikely to impress anyone.

Impress? You think people are insulting Liz to try and impress you? 🙂

Being critical of a new PM on day one isn’t childish tribalism, it’s a reflection of her shit record as a minister.

But isn’t “least worst option” the whole basis of how political parties, policy, legislation etc. currently gets voted upon?

Is it time for DNA’s ‘lizard’ theory again?

https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/162557-it-comes-from-a-very-ancient-democracy-you-see-you

On its world, the people are people. The leaders are lizards. The people hate the lizards and the lizards rule the people.”
“Odd,” said Arthur, “I thought you said it was a democracy.”
“I did,” said Ford. “It is.”
“So,” said Arthur, hoping he wasn’t sounding ridiculously obtuse, “why don’t people get rid of the lizards?”
“It honestly doesn’t occur to them,” said Ford. “They’ve all got the vote, so they all pretty much assume that the government they’ve voted in more or less approximates to the government they want.”
“You mean they actually vote for the lizards?”
“Oh yes,” said Ford with a shrug, “of course.”
“But,” said Arthur, going for the big one again, “why?”
“Because if they didn’t vote for a lizard,” said Ford, “the wrong lizard might get in.

there is no guarantee that everything a Tory politician does is always wrong on every occasion.

A ringing endorsement, indeed.

You think people are insulting Liz to try and impress you?

Not at all. I assume that people who are consumed by hatred of Tories and their supporters would like to win over people to their way of thinking, so presumably the intention is to impress someone. Otherwise what is the point – group self-help support?

Not at all. 

Who, then, do you think they’re trying to impress?

Yeah it seems like childish tribalism to attack someone for no other reason than the fact that they are a Tory.

She does not hide what she is and what she believes in. Her and her far right mates wrote it down in a book.

She wants to take away peoples rights, reduce taxes(services), and give more money to the rich people.

Besides, I am quite entitled to attack any Tory, they are constantly attacking me and this Country, with this shit show they have created.

Who, then, do you think they’re trying to impress?

I used the word “anyone”.

Yeah it seems like childish tribalism to attack someone for no other reason than the fact that they are a Tory.

You make it sound as if she’s just burst out of an egg, pure, unsullied, and ready to start a new dawn. We’ve seen her in government for, what, 12 10 years?

Lots of work for her to do if she wants to change our already formed view of her, and her government’s record… and by “our”, I don’t mean mine, I mean the public…

Latest Westminster voting intention (31 Aug – 1 Sep)

Con: 28% (-3 from 23-24 Aug)
Lab: 43% (+4)
Lib Dem: 11% (=)
Green: 6% (-1)
Reform UK: 3% (-2)
SNP: 5% (=)https://t.co/HYSyJdRFwi pic.twitter.com/qWmU3cr3I0

— YouGov (@YouGov) September 6, 2022

Liz Truss is our new Prime Minister. What do the public make of her? See full thread below, but highlights include:

Just 12% think she will be great/good as PM
Net distrusted on all issues facing UK
Already seen as out of touch (65%)
Not seen as an improvement on Boris Johnson https://t.co/nna9iJNNvp

— YouGov (@YouGov) September 5, 2022

We’ve seen her in government for, what, 12 years?

Which is why I have repeatedly said that for me her replacing Johnson represents a serious setback.

I don’t however see the point of attack her for what she has done in the last 12 years. She is now PM, she should be criticised for she does now as PM.

Or do you think Labour should be attacking and criticising her for what she did say 6 years ago?

Do you think that is what voters want to hear?

@mildred Exactly …

She was a lib dem.. Now a tory.

She was pro-remain now pro scorched earth brexiteer.

For anyone to suggest she has even a modicum of integrity is utterly ludicrous.

I used the word “anyone”.

You said it wouldn’t impress anyone – the question was who do you think they were trying to impress.

So latest supports are suggesting an 18 month freeze in household bills at around £2500 (still too high BTW) paid for by general ‘taxation’ (ie money printing) with an as yet unannounced solution for businesses (probably a grant/loan scheme similar to covid). If this is correct, then considering their reaction to the furlough scheme and wider covid support then the right wing of the tory party will be spitting feathers at Truss’s ‘socialist’ approach.

I say again. Right wing idealogue my arse. Truss is a populist pragmatist (and probably a secret MMTer), just like Johnson before her. Faced with the first real challenge to her position, she has thrown out almost everything she said in the leadership campaign and opted to crank up the printing presses.

I don’t however see the point of attack her for what she has done in the last 12 years.

Er… we absolutely can form an opinion on her based on what she has said and done… she’s not new here.

opted to crank up the printing presses.

Plenty of those who back her will be happy with that… as long as the money goes to the right people (and fossil fuel companies are included in that). If she taxes that money back out of fossil fuels (rather than doing all she can to hamper on shore renewables, as she has done while in office, and promised to do while campaigning for the top job)… then she might have a fight on her hands with her more right wing MPs and others she needs to keep the support of.

Latest Westminster voting intention (31 Aug – 1 Sep)

There have been 3 more opinion polls since that one, one of them (1-2 sept) gave Labour a 4% lead. I wouldn’t at this stage get too excited.

Public figures aspire to be just that. Humour and ridicule in their direction is fair game in the long tradition of court jesters, cartoonists etc. I’ve only ever voted Labour but will will poke fun at them as I want them to be better than the tories, but at the moment…..

There have been 3 more opinion polls since that one, one of them (1-2 sept) gave Labour a 4% lead. I wouldn’t at this stage get too excited.

Could you link to them?

Some roundups taking all the polls into account…

https://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/blogs/ec_rrose_20220901.html

The central prediction of Electoral Calculus analysis is that Labour can win at least a hundred more seats than the Conservatives. On present showing, there is even a one in five chance that Labour could top Labour’s record win of 418 seats in 1997. As long as Labour is the largest party in the House of Commons, and there is a 88 percent probability on current figures, Keir Starmer is in position to take the key to Downing Street from Liz Truss in two years time.

Boris Johnson leaves the new Prime Minister a Janus-faced legacy. Looking backwards, Liz Truss inherits a comfortable parliamentary majority based on 365 Conservative seats won at the 2019 general election. However, looking forward toward the next election the Conservatives face a predicted loss of 143 seats if a ballot were held now. Moreover, there is a 30pc chance of doing worse than in 1997, when a tired Tory government won only 165 seats, thereby suffering its worst electoral defeat in modern political history.

Who would win if an election was held today?

[ found the 4% one… it was Opinium, and included in that newstatesman collation and analysis ]

She has her hands full if she wants to convince voters to back her and the ongoing Conservative government.

Another recent poll… in case you’re suggesting the one I posted is an outlier…

NEW Westminster Voting Intention, named party leaders including Liz Truss. Change vs today's standard voting intention. LAB lead of 17 points:
CON 29% (-5) change was -4.5, rounds to 5
LAB 46% (+3)
LD 11% (nc)
SNP 4% (nc)
GRE 3% (nc)
OTH 7% (+2):
See: https://t.co/OdVvBPdZNo pic.twitter.com/kELnW0ATfI

— Survation. (@Survation) September 5, 2022

She was a lib dem.. Now a tory.

She was pro-remain now pro scorched earth brexiteer.

For anyone to suggest she has even a modicum of integrity is utterly ludicrous.

Which is why it is hard to predict with any certainty how she will behave.

Personally I wouldn’t give her the benefit of the doubt – she is simply too right-wing for me, I would rather Johnson remained PM than her.

However we are where we are and she is now PM, we will know soon enough what sort of PM she is likely to be. Her past, for the reasons mentioned above, doesn’t paint any certainty.

Ernie.

What did Johnson get right?

I find your defense of him quite astonishing. He is personally responsible for the single most damaging event in modern uk history. Hard bre it and destoying our relationships with other countries .

Or do you think Labour should be attacking and criticising her for what she did say 6 years ago?

Do you think that is what voters want to hear?

It probably is.

We still can’t get behind Labour because of Blair’s involvement in the Iraq war (2003). We can’t support the Lib Dems because of tuition fees (2010) and, erm, because one of them ate a bacon sandwich once (2014). Six years ago is practically last week in populist politics.

Plus of course, it sells a lot of newspapers.