[Closed] Is the UK a Christian Country?

I'm practicing but can't quite get the blindfolded light saber thing right yet, so kind of stuck on "day 1" really 😳

1. No lengthy history of large scale covering up and turning a blind eye to clergy all over the world abusing children.
2. err.

with reference to Number (1) - Well, that's really a criteria of exclusion. I think that's an easy and perhaps trivial question. The interesting and more intellectually challenging one is the one i asked

What are your criteria [b]for [/b]fitness to operate as a religion?

As far as number (2) is concerned, I'd always thought that was a criterion for humanity

[url= http://silentsspeech.wordpress.com/2011/01/01/australian-prime-minister-does-it-again/ ]Have a look[/url] I sort of agree with this woman

Top Dog - Member
Have a look I sort of agree with this woman

[url= http://www.snopes.com/rumors/thisisamerica.asp ]that old crap again[/url]

Did any one define what a christian country is?

Cos if the answer is following the teachings of Christ then i doubt it ever was.

If the answer is using bits of the bible out of context to justify greed and oppression then it was and in away still is.

But surely we should be aiming to move away from such divisive rubbish.

We know what happened when the Christians actually got power in this country
"After the Parliamentarian victory in the Civil War, the Puritan views of the majority of Parliament and its supporters began to be imposed on the rest of the country. The Puritans advocated an austere lifestyle and restricted what they saw as the excesses of the previous regime. Most prominently, holidays such as Christmas and Easter were suppressed. Pastimes such as the theatre and gambling were also banned. However, some forms of art that were thought to be 'virtuous', such as opera, were encouraged."

Nobody's burning a hole in my tongue for ridding my bike on a Sunday.

The problem with this question, IMHO, is that a lot of people "identify" as Christian when they are actually atheist / agnostic or otherwise uncaring. In the same way that people can tick the "nationality: British" box without requiring any real sense of patriotism, they'll tick the "religion: Christian" box because they think they should rather than out of any deeply held religious beliefs.

We swear on the Bible, blaspheme, use churches for functions and "celebrate" Christian holidays largely out of habit. We've always done it that way(*). The oft lauded True Meaning of Christmas is nothing to do with Jesus for, I'll hazard, the large majority of people; it's about spending time with friends and family, and giving gifts.

The census, I believe, is an inaccurate way of gauging how "Christian" a country we are. It's possibly more accurate at measuring other religions; they're often more actively (aggressively even) followed, you don't tend to get people paying lip service to, say, Islam in the same way that you do with Christianity in the UK.

I'm not saying that this is true for everyone of course. There'll be plenty of actually devout people too, I just don't think they represent the majority of UK "Christians" any more, and haven't for quite a while.

(* - which, of course, is the worst reason to do anything)

We know what happened when the Christians actually got power in this country

The problem with this question, IMHO, is that a lot of people "identify" as atheist when they are actually Christian or otherwise caring. In the same way that people can tick the "nationality: British" box without requiring any real sense of patriotism, they'll tick the "religion: Atheist" box because they think they should rather than out of any deeply held beliefs.

That's a very poor FTFY Charlie, it doesn't really stand up at all. People who identify themselves as atheist have, in my experience, at least actively considered the question, as opposed to a lot of people who call themselves Christian...

People who identify themselves as Christian have, in my experience, at least actively considered the question, as opposed to a lot of people who call themselves Atheist...

I've checked of the first 20 Christmas cards lying around the room. None of them mention god or Christ in the text or have any angels depicted. It's all scenes of snow, holly, cartoons, and jokey photographs.

If this is a Christian country the cards certainly don't show it. It seems this winter event is about TV specials, presents, and good food and drink. God is a long way back bringing up the rear.

How many of the 400,000 jedi are actually practicing jedi knights?

I am, if you don't believe me check my facebook page it says so there so if its facebook official its official.

is that a lot of people "identify" as atheist when they are actually Christian

Name one.

I take your point but, well, how can I put this politely, it's nonsense.

People who identify themselves as Christian have, in my experience, at least actively considered the question, as opposed to a lot of people who call themselves Atheist...

Without external influence, atheism is the default belief system. you may be correct in lazily suggesting that some people haven't considered Christianity or a.n.other religion, however that doesn't mean that they're misrepresenting their beliefs by describing themselves as atheist or 'don't care.' It's not a like-for-like comparison, and turning the comment around to imply that it is is disingenuous.

they'll tick the "religion: Atheist" box because they think they should rather than out of any deeply held beliefs.

i am so glad all the ones who pick a religion are devout and avid followers of their religion rather than just ticking the one they were born into irrespective of actual conviction or practisingness.

If your going to 'fix' my posts and misquote me, Charlie, at least have the decency to 'quote' my initial statement... See you're just confusing people now...

Without external influence, atheism is the default belief system.

Excellent! That means that all religious ideas must have started from an external influence. Hmmmm....

you may be correct in lazily suggesting that some people haven't considered Christianity or a.n.other religion, however that doesn't mean that they're misrepresenting their beliefs by describing themselves as atheist or 'don't care.'

Actually, I'm lazily suggesting that you are posting stuff which is unsupported conjecture.

It's not a like-for-like comparison, and turning the comment around to imply that it is is disingenuous

Just rolling out the unsupported conjectures

I've checked of the first 20 Christmas cards lying around the room. None of them mention god or Christ in the text or have any angels depicted. It's all scenes of snow, holly, cartoons, and jokey photographs.

Not exactly a scientifically conducted survey is it

(although some here would say it more accurate than the census!)

If your going to 'fix' my posts and misquote me, Charlie, at least have the decency to 'quote' my initial statement... See you're just confusing people now...

erm...I didn't 'fix' your posts

CharlieMungus - Member

they'll tick the "religion: Atheist" box because they think they should rather than out of any deeply held beliefs.

This is absolute genius really- it's the absence of deeply held beliefs that makes them an atheist!

This is absolute genius really- it's the absence of deeply held beliefs that makes them an atheist!

Atheism isn't a belief? What is it ? Knowledge? A fact?

I've checked of the first 20 Christmas cards lying around the room. None of them mention god or Christ in the text or have any angels depicted. It's all scenes of snow, holly, cartoons, and jokey photographs.

I presume from what you've written that you're an atheist. Clearly you have very considerate friends who don't want to offend you with religious messages.

I've checked of the first 20 [b][i][u]Christ[/u][/i][/b]mas cards lying around the room. None of them mention god or Christ

it's the absence of deeply held beliefs that makes them an atheist!

You should try checking the definition of atheism.

You should try checking the definition of atheism

or any of the previous 'religion argument' threads

aracer - Member

You should try checking the definition of atheism.

Ah, are you one of those people that pretends atheism is an act of faith, rather than an absence of faith? The definition is "without god"

is that a lot of people "identify" as atheist when they are actually Christian
Name one.

Stewart.

Now you name an atheist who 'identifies' as Christian

Ah, are you one of those people that pretends atheism is an act of faith, rather than an absence of faith?

I didn't say 'faith' I said belief, you would have noticed that if you had answered the questions

CharlieMungus; that comment was to Aracer. Hang on, I'll edit in a quote box, I see you got a post inbetween them which is causing confusion- sorry for sloppy posting!

CharlieMungus - Member

Atheism isn't a belief? What is it ? Knowledge? A fact?

Theism is belief in a god. Atheism is the absence of belief in a god. Not an act of faith or belief, but the absence of the act of faith or belief.

I know some people struggle with this and there are various interpretations of atheism, but this- "negative atheism" as some call it- seems to be the most common. As far as I can tell, the discussion seems to come from an assumption on the part of some that religion is the default state, and that you either choose a religion or you choose to opt out; whereas the godless would say that godlessness is the default state and you opt into a particular god.

Excellent! That means that all religious ideas must have started from an external influence. Hmmmm....

Don't be obtuse, that's not what I'm saying. People in don't spontaneously hold the belief of an organised religion, someone 'taught' that belief system to them.

Actually, I'm lazily suggesting that you are posting stuff which is unsupported conjecture.

Yes, I am, I never claimed anything else. If you were being less lazy, you might've noticed that I explicitly said (several times) that I was voicing an opinion, not stating fact. Calling it conjecture doesn't make it any less valid an opinion. Nice try, though.

Stewart.

Now you name an atheist who 'identifies' as Christian

Most of my older family.

Assuming 'Stewart' actually exists, could you elaborate on his beliefs? Genuine question, I'm curious.

Don't be obtuse, that's not what I'm saying. People in don't spontaneously hold the belief of an organised religion, someone 'taught' that belief system to them.

Fine, I'm not disagreeing with that! In fact i think lots of people share that view.

Stewart, calls himself an atheist, but underlying it all , he still has a tribal Christian instinct.
I'm interested in how your older family call themselves Christian if they say they don't believe in a god

Yes, I am, I never claimed anything else. If you were being less lazy, you might've noticed that I explicitly said (several times) that I was voicing an opinion, not stating fact. Calling it conjecture doesn't make it any less valid an opinion. Nice try, though.

erm... calling it conjecture wasn't an attempt to make your opinion less valid. I don't see how it could do that.

Yes, I am, I never claimed anything else. If you were being less lazy, you might've noticed that I explicitly said (several times) that I was voicing an opinion, not stating fact

Ah, so were you being lazy when you challenged Charlie for evidence for something prefaced with IMHO?

"Now you name an atheist who 'identifies' as Christian"

Most of my older family.

Got evidence for that?

Atheism is the absence of belief in a god. Not an act of faith or belief, but the absence of the act of faith or belief.

This sounds more like agnosticism, you don't believe in a God, but that is a statement in the negative, paralleled by the possibility that you don't believe there is no God. That's ok as a stance, but i wonder if it is what you mean.

As far as I can tell, the discussion seems to come from an assumption on the part of some that religion is the default state, and that you either choose a religion or you choose to opt out; whereas the godless would say that godlessness is the default state and you opt into a particular god.

Well, I think the opting really depends on your exposure / indoctrination to the ideas. Folks are generally less likely to opt out of ideas which they have been brought up with. For most this involves a 'there is a god' or 'there is no god' very few have neither of those, and most have an opinion either way. I think you are unusual in that you don't.

CharlieMungus - Member

This sounds more like agnosticism, you don't believe in a God, but that is a statement in the negative, paralleled by the possibility that you don't believe there is no God

No- agnosticism is the belief that there may be a god, it's a step away from the default position of no belief at all.

"Not believing in god" isn't a belief, any more than "not kicking a football" is a sport. Which is a shame because that's a sport Scotland could be great at.

There are atheists who do choose to treat their godlessness almost like a religion, of course. Preachers of godlessness, strange thing. However, this idea that there's a religion-shaped hole in us which you either fill with a religion, or with disbelief, is false. Rather we're made up of a lot of building blocks, and for some of us there's a belief block. And for some people, there's a disbelief block. Positive atheism. For others still, there's neither. Negative atheism.

The vocabulary is crap, to be fair. I'm kind of with Sam Harris, I don't think negative atheism should need a word at all. There isn't a word for people who don't ride bikes, you're just a cyclist or you're not.

he still has a tribal Christian instinct.

I'm not sure what you mean by that?

I don't see how it could do that.

Glad we cleared that up.

Ah, so were you being lazy when you challenged Charlie for evidence for something prefaced with IMHO?

Perhaps.

Got evidence for that?

That I can reproduce here? No.

That I can reproduce here? No.

Do try not to use unsubstantiated statements to support your arguments.

Do try not to use unsubstantiated statements to support your arguments.

"I cannot reproduce on the Internet" != "unsubstantiated."

"Voicing an opinion" != "argument."

"I cannot reproduce on the Internet" != "unsubstantiated."

As far as anybody reading this forum is concerned it is.

As far as anybody reading this forum is concerned it is.

To be fair I doubt whether there's much more than just the 4 of you still reading this thread. So if he's failed to convinced the other 3 I can't see that representing a huge problem.

I know nobody with any sense is still reading this anymore but here's my twopenneth

TandemJeremy - Member

So if we were a Christian county instead of a country with some christians in it we surely would base our law on church law and scripture.

so lets see - and end to people accumulating vast amounts of wealth

And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

NO more interst on loans

If you lend money to any of My people who are poor among you, you shall not be like a moneylender to him; you shall not charge him interest

Criminal law would be come more entertaining

"You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.' But I say to you, Do not resist the one who is evil. But if anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if anyone would sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. And if anyone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles."

Homosexuality? well tht sort of nonsense would have to stop

If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

Posted 9 hours ago #

These are Old Testament quotes that not even Jews follow any more. The point that Jesus made was that there was a new covenant. Do you really think if Christ was around today he would go anywhere near any of the organised religions?

Will you stop and help a fellow rider in trouble?
Yes?
That's one of the tenets of Christianity and I'm pretty sure that most people on here have an ethical belief and value system based on Christian principles. Forget about the church,fundamentalists, the Spanish inquisiton etc .Nearly 2,000 years ago Christians were one of the only voices in the West to espouse most of the values I hear put forward on this site daily and I'm not talking about single speed and what tyres.

Oi Charlie. I said;

People who identify themselves as atheist have, in my experience, at least actively considered the question, as opposed to a lot of people who call themselves Christian...

You then said;

CharlieMungus - Member
People who identify themselves as Christian have, in my experience, at least actively considered the question, as opposed to a lot of people who call themselves Atheist...

How is this not 'fixing' or misquoting my post? I can see the point you're trying to make, and although I completely disagree, it's not anything that can be easily evidenced, so best to just stick an 'in my experience' on the end of it...

No- agnosticism is the belief that there may be a god, it's a step away from the default position of no belief at all.

"Not believing in god" isn't a belief, any more than "not kicking a football" is a sport. Which is a shame because that's a sport Scotland could be great at.

I kinda see what you mean and it's a position which i can respect. However, i find it hard to understand fully. Underlying your position must be some belief. I don't want to push you to a position, but how do you answer the following

1) do you believe there is a god
2) do you believe there is no god?

How is this not 'fixing' or misquoting my post? I can see the point you're trying to make, and although I completely disagree, it's not anything that can be easily evidenced, so best to just stick an 'in my experience' on the end of it...

I was making my own post, that's how. Is that clearer?

As far as anybody reading this forum is concerned it is.

Well, that's their failing, not mine.

But whatever. If I'm stating something as fact then I'll back it up with evidence if I can. I fail to see why I need to do this for opinion, however.

1) do you believe there is a god
2) do you believe there is no god?

Easy - I do not believe in the existence of any gods. I am an atheist. thats what the word means.

An atheist does not believe - there is no belief behind the position. Its about lack of belief

Can you answer each question separately?
Preferably with a yes or no, but really it was northwind i was asking

Edit... Oh and i am amused by the way you say 'easy' then fail to answer the questions directly.

CharlieMungus - Member

However, i find it hard to understand fully. Underlying your position must be some belief.

Nope. TBH I don't know why this is a hard thing to get to grips with.

1) do you believe there is a god
2) do you believe there is no god?

1) No
2) No

nick1962 - Member

Will you stop and help a fellow rider in trouble?
Yes?
That's one of the tenets of Christianity and I'm pretty sure that most people on here have an ethical belief and value system based on Christian principles.

Woah there. You're half correct. Yes, it's a christian belief. But, of course it's not a christian exclusive. It is christian to help one another; that doesn't mean that to help one another is christian. Pre-christian humans were cooperative.

1) do you believe there is a god

2) do you believe there is no god?

Will you stop and help a fellow rider in trouble?
Yes?
That's one of the tenets of Christianity and I'm pretty sure that most people on here have an ethical belief and value system based on Christian principles.

Bollox. It works in non christian countries and for non Christians as well.

Morals predate Christianity and are wide spread beyond Christianity. Does no one help others in say Malaysia? Or China? or India? How about Tibet?

Northwind

Not in any way claiming it was exclusively Christian or that they invented it,far from it but I reckon it was the first major Western religion/philosphy to expound it as it's credo.
The Persians,Eygptians,Greeks and Romans never helped you out if you got a puncture 🙂
Oh and they all also had slaves...

Atheism is, in a broad sense, the rejection of belief in the existence of deities.[1] In a narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities.[2][3] Most inclusively, atheism is simply the absence of belief that any deities exist.[3][4] Atheism is contrasted with theism,[5][6] which in its most general form is the belief that at least one deity exists,[6][7] and with agnosticism, which leaves the matter of existence open.[8]

The term atheism originated from the Greek ????? (atheos), meaning "without god", which was applied with a negative connotation to those thought to reject the gods worshipped by the larger society

1) do you believe there is a god

No
2) do you believe there is no god?

see above same question unless i can believe there is no god and also believe in a god [ should be some mileage in that for you Dr 😉 ]

EDIT:

Oh and they all also had slaves

but I reckon it was the first major Western religion/philosphy to expound it as it's credo.

right - so what about Tibet? China?

Thats such a narrow minded viewpoint.

TJ

Posts crossed.
But Tibet and India....really? Where the religious hierarchy dominated just as much as in the West if not more.

2) do you believe there is no god?

Meaningless question. I do not believe in the existance of any gods - you cannot believe in the absence of something.

Course you can, i believe there is no such thing as a flying spaghetti monster

Or try ths,

I'm telling you there is no god, do you believe me?

Junkyard - he is trying to show that athiesim is based on belief that gods do not exist - whearas ita based on not believeing gods exist. Trying to show that atheisim is a belief based system

TJ

Posts crossed.
But Tibet and India....really? Where the religious hierarchy dominated just as much as in the West if not more.

Yes but you are trying to claim that helping others in need is a Christian thing - which is just complete nonsense. many cultures have a belief in helping others.

I specifically said Western to differentiate from the religious and cultural development elsewhere.

TJ
No I'm not
I said- I reckon it was the first major Western religion/philosphy to expound it as it's credo.
Anyway I am sure it's all just a question of semantics and deep down we are all singing from the same hymn sheet 😉

Still an outrageously patronising and unpleasant viewpoint. You are denigrating those who are not Christians. Morals exist despite christianity not because of them. Morals predate christianity.

Its offensive to suggest that anyone can only behave well because of christianity.

Junkyard - he is trying to show that athiesim is based on belief that gods do not exist - whearas ita based on not believeing gods exist. Trying to show that atheisim is a belief based system

No, not trying trying to show that. Trying to get you to explain

There is no explanation required. I do not believe in gods. thats all there is to it. Its not a belief in a negative. there is no place in my consciousness for belief in the supernatural. ~Atheism is the absences of belief in gods - not gods not god. there are many gods worshipped on this planet.

Do you believe in Shiva? Bhudda? Thor? Odin?

No, i don't.

I also believe they do not exist

What about you?

Surely 'belief' is simply to regard your personal opinion as 'fact' in the absence of absolute proof (or something)...

I know but i am just being "sporting"

his view can be argued pretty well logically but it is BS. At best IMHO you can claim I have a belief in empiricism and what it finds but I dont have beliefs associated with "truths" or what this method finds. I just have a "belief" in how to find these truths [ eliminate infinite error] Faith maximises error and claims it as a strength - then again it needs to because it is false and even those who believe will entertain doubts.

I dont have faith as you can prove me wrong with data

I think Buddha existed

Can yo not read or understand. I DO NOT BELIEVE IN ANY GODS.

Oh, sorry, yeah, believe in buddha, he existed

Can yo not read or understand. I DO NOT BELIEVE IN ANY GODS.

I get that bit, it's the other bit which you seem unable to answer, you keep banging on about what you do not believe, that bit is clear. The thing i want ro know is if if you think there are no gods

Happy to help ,purely in a pre Socratic philosphical kinda way and not in any way wishing to upset Eastern mysticism fanboys 🙂

nick1962 - Member

Not in any way claiming it was exclusively Christian or that they invented it,far from it but I reckon it was the first major Western religion/philosphy to expound it as it's credo.

Christianity isn't a western religion. But that's a bit nitpicky maybe, so instead lets point out that judaiism pre-dates christianity.

his view can be argued pretty well logically but it is BS.

At best IMHO you can claim I have a belief in empiricism and what it finds but I dont have beliefs associated with "truths" or what this method finds. I just have a "belief" in how to find these truths [ eliminate infinite error] Faith maximises error and claims it as a strength - then again it needs to because it is false and even those who believe will entertain doubts.

Let's not conflate 'belief' and 'faith' rather stay with belief for now

Charlie
Seeing as noone else wants to play ball...
I do not believe in god(in the sense of some omnipotent being).
I do not think there are any gods either.
Does that help?

Yes nick, thank you i'm glad the question is not as difficult as it appeared to be.

Northwind

And Judaism (and the Old Testamaent and all that eye for an eye stuff that TJ quoted earlier -the established religious status quo is what Jesus challenged.BTw he got some of his main ideas from an older magic mushroom eating Jewish cult...or so I am led to believe Nag hammadi and all that

CharlieMungus - Member

The thing i want ro know is if if you think there are no gods

I think that it's likely there are no gods. I do not believe that there are no gods.

Yes and it was the Jews who Jesus lectured to about the Good Samaritan

Nope. TBH I don't know why this is a hard thing to get to grips with.

1) do you believe there is a god
2) do you believe there is no god?
1) No
2) No

Ok, thanks for this NW.but this is whybi sadimit sounds more like agnosticism. I guess it is atheism in the truer and less commonly seen sense. I know it's not agnosticism, but it has that scope for possibilites, and it is quite different from saying there is no god.

Charlie - your second question is meaningless and semantically null. there is no meaningful answer to it.

"Do you believe there are no gods" is not eh same as "do you think there are no gods"

I know there are no gods. Belief does not come into it.

Atheism is not believing in gods. that is all it is. lack of belief in the supernatural.

CharlieMungus - Member
The thing i want ro know is if if you think there are no gods

I think that it's likely there are no gods. I do not believe that there are no gods.

Cheers, i get you now, In a strange reversal, this time i was asking TJ!

you cannot believe in the absence of something.

If someone presents you with an empty tray, and sez 'do you believe there are any pies on this tray?', you can of course answer 'No' and be right.

If someone presents you with an empty tray, and sez 'do you believe there are no pies on this tray?', you can of course say 'Yes' and also be right.

🙂