BTW, if the pagans had a “midwinter festival” it wouldn’t have been on the 25th of december which is only 3 days into winter.

I thought the winter solstice was ‘midwinter’

It is.

This year it’s 22nd December.

Lifer – Member
I thought the winter solstice was ‘midwinter’

There are a couple of definitions. One is that winter starts at the solstice, one has the solstice as midwinter. Either way, it’s the solstice that our ancestors were celebrating and that festival was subsumed by christianity in the same way that the spring equinox was subsumed into easter.

On the issue of the census question, Northwind has it when he says that it depends how you ask the question. I did some work with the census team in Scotland during the trials. One of our tasks was to go to folks houses after they’d sent in the form and walk through the questions in more of an interview-style to see if the answers remained consistent and whether or not folk were having difficulties with the wording etc. What you then get is a chance to hear folks reasoning. When it came to the religion question, most would answer C of S, but before they did that, they’d do this wee mental juggling act…” well, I haven’t been to church in years…. I was christened….my family are christian…” that sort of thing. The number of active church-goers was tiny.

Was this a loaded question

So “midwinter” means the first day of winter ? Damn the english language – I’ll never get the hang of it 😐

When’s midweek – monday ?

Confusing eh?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_the_Bleak_Midwinter

ernie_lynch – Member
So “midwinter” means the first day of winter ? Damn the english language – I’ll never get the hang of it
When’s midweek – monday ?

It depends if you are thinking of winter Astromonically or in “real” terms.

Winter in the UK is traditionally 1st Nov to the 1st Feb. With the winter solstice being “Mid Winter”
Based on the period, and spread, of shortest days.

When it came to the religion question, most would answer C of S, but before they did that, they’d do this wee mental juggling act…” well, I haven’t been to church in years…. I was christened….my family are christian…” that sort of thing. The number of active church-goers was tiny.

So does the question ask “do you go to church” or “are you religious”?

Er… Would you like to try to explain your strange non-sequitor or are you just going to stick with “X, therefore Y”?

Non-sequitor? You explained yourself that the church and the state aren’t separated…

Of course, to make it really fair, they should ask everyone the question “what is your religion?” just a few minutes before they died – that would give them a whole lifetime to make up their minds and would iron out the distracting “I want to die before I get old” macho posturing period.

All of this “it’s the way you ask the question” stuff isn’t really very useful in thinking about this.

If you want to look for a bit more evidence outside of the census – why do people get married in church? why do people have their children Christened? why do people have church funerals?

All of the personal as well as state/societal big occasions are still by and large conducted in Christian ceremonies. And guess what, they’re not compulsory – that’s what people choose to do – even after they’ve had time to think about it.

rightplacerighttime – Member
If you want to look for a bit more evidence outside of the census – why do people get married in church? why do people have their children Christened? why do people have church funerals?

Tradition.

^^ hard for me to argue with that. i got married in a church and wouldn’t have even considered a civil ceremony.

as a historian it’s pretty difficult to divorce the landscape from christianity. churches and church houses are pretty much the dominant feature of all english villages and in most cases will be the only medieval (or earlier) buildings left.

i guess it depends on how you read the landscape but the england i live in is a very christian place.

the whole thing over Christmas amuses me. almost all the symbols are the pre christian ones. the timing is for the pre christian mid winter festival. teh only thing that is Christian about it for most is the name

Tradition.

Or to put it more fully and more correctly:

Christian tradition.

almost all the symbols are the pre christian ones.

Apart from a few trivial ones like Jesus, Mary and Joseph of course.

teh only thing that is Christian about it for most is the name

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You’re right, that’s the only thing.

rightplacerighttime. How many nativity scenes do yo see in peoples houses and public spaces compared to decorated trees, holly and ivy, wreaths on doors, yule log, robins etc

Edit

father christmas as well of course – non christian

It is tradition, and people do it because it’s expected of them, and because churches are nice places to do things like ceremonies. I’m on the atheist side of agnostic, and the number of times I had the ‘why aren’t you getting married in a church/getting you boy christened?’ conversation with family is amazing. When I say it’s because we don’t believe in god and it would be hypocritical, most peoples reactions are that they didn’t think it mattered, it’s just what you do…

It’s taken a conscious effort not to end up down the assumption of Christianity route for us, and I don’t suppose many people are as bothered, especially when churches look so darn pretty in the pictures and all.

EDIT; I agree with TJ… 😯

the whole thing over Christmas amuses me.

You amusement amuses me.

Or to put it more fully and more correctly:

Christian tradition.
You mean Pagan. Or to put it more fully and more correctly:

Heathen tradition. 🙂

rightplacerighttime – Member

You’re the one asking (answering) the wrong question.

nealglover – Member

Right underneath that it said “This Question is Voluntary”

You are both missing the point- the census got a 70% result “I am christian” but if you ask the exact same question then follow it with “are you religious” you get 30%. Since you can’t be christian and not religious, the numbers are demonstrably broken.

aracer – Member

Non-sequitor? You explained yourself that the church and the state aren’t separated…

Ah, so you’re still going to stick with “X therefore Y”? The lack of seperation of church and government obviously doesn’t make us christian- it’s just a strange constitutional throwback that we haven’t got round to removing yet (mainly because in practical terms it’s irrelevant)

The lack of seperation of church and government obviously doesn’t make us christian

It certainly makes our country Christian.

If the country isn’t secular, and isn’t Christian, what is it?

why are people surprised by christian adoption of pre-christian traditions?

Romano-christianity if not the same as celtic christianity, or orthodox, or coptic, etc, Look at the church in latin america and again it differs.

Every religion adopts what has gone before because it is far easier to convert people and people tend to hold onto their traditions.

Yes the UK is a christian country, our traditions, our laws, our social structures, everything has developed because of christianity. You may not be religious but the way you think and act is shaped by a society developed on religious grounds.

aracer – Member

It certainly makes our country Christian.

Why? (some sort of explanation would be awesome, since that’s 3 times now you’ve tried to go with the statement but no justification)

It makes our country Christian though.

Well it would be more accurate to say it means we are a Christian State. As a country we are predominantly but not exclusively Christian.

Why? (some sort of explanation would be awesome, since that’s 3 times now you’ve tried to go with the statement but no justification)

Because the church and state aren’t separated. 🙄

Just why is it so hard for you to accept?

why are people surprised by christian adoption of pre-christian traditions?

Romano-christianity if not the same as celtic christianity, or orthodox, or coptic, etc, Look at the church in latin america and again it differs.

Every religion adopts what has gone before because it is far easier to convert people and people tend to hold onto their traditions.

Yes the UK is a christian country, our traditions, our laws, our social structures, everything has developed because of christianity. You may not be religious but the way you think and act is shaped by a society developed on religious grounds.
There was a good documentary on pagan culture a while back. Our present culture is pre-christian pagan. Despite 2000 years of oppression we’re back to how we were (which was the subject of the documentary).

The sexually repressive death cult tried to make us all guilty and miserable but failed.

our culture is not pre christian pagan. It is not possible to unwind what has happened over the last 2000 years, please note that Christianity in its current form in the UK is not 2000 years old, Roman Christianity is not celtic which is not CoE. Read up on things like Gnostism, the great schism, etc.

Traditions build upon one another, do you know of any entrail readers? do you see regular animal or human sacrifices? these are traditions that have been abandoned, they may reappear they may not.

Our present culture is pre-christian pagan.

Priceless 🙂

But wait, it gets better………“Despite 2000 years of oppression we’re back to how we were”

The ability of this place to come up with amusing bollox is a source of constant amazement 😀

“If you want to look for a bit more evidence outside of the census – why do people get married in church? why do people have their children Christened? why do people have church funerals?”

Largely tradition to keep relatives happy I guess. I reluctantly got married in church because my wife wanted to as she was a christian. Our children weren’t christened. My last close relative to die didn’t have a church funeral it was a cremation without any minister or other official being involved. The service was conducted by me. As for me – I’m donating my body to science. I don’t see the point in slowly rotting away in the ground after death.

If you want to look for a bit more evidence outside of the census – why do people get married in church? why do people have their children Christened? why do people have church funerals?

I’m not entirely disagreeing with you but the reason why many people get married in churches is because they’re big, pretty, cheap and photogenic venues. The vicar (or whoever) is an experienced performer (six shows a week for x years) and has all the props for the production. More or less the same with funerals – even if people know of humanist etc officiants of funerals, there are a lot of amateurs and nut cutlet eaters out there. At least with a vicar you’ll probably get someone who knows what to do and has a routine.

It’s a bit like why people hire after dinner speakers and comedians to do awards cermonies.

@5thElefant

Keep up – I said that the marriage, Christening and funeral services that most people have follow Christian tradition.

Largely tradition……

As in Christian tradition ?

aracer – Member

Because the church and state aren’t separated

No, that’s not any better- “because it just is”. Having vestigal christian elements tied into our government doesn’t make this a christian country. If we had nothing but church law, that would be different.

Our lack of secular lawmaking is a wee bit embarassing but it’s not actually important. It could get interesting if Charles takes the crown though.

No, that’s not any better- “because it just is”. Having vestigal christian elements tied into our government doesn’t make this a christian country. If we had nothing but church law, that would be different.

Vestigal? have you actually looked at how much of the legal and social structure of the UK is based on religion and specifically christianity?

The population may no longer be religious in the sense of going to a place of worship but as has been pointed out most milestones are religious, baptism, marriage, death all are religious, our holidays are painted as religious

Well that’s the problem mrmo, some people appear to be confusing a ‘christian country’ with whether most people go to church on sundays or not.

Britain is a monarchy, but if an opinion poll came out tomorrow showing that most people were opposed to a monarchy and wanted a republic instead, it would still be a monarchy on tuesday.

mrmo – Member

as has been pointed out most milestones are religious, baptism, marriage, death all are religious

These are not religious things- they’re human things that religion has glommed onto. They’re absolutely not christian things- they’re common to all major religions but also common to the irreligious.

We commemorate death; we celebrate union and birth. Some people choose to do it in a church, but people have been doing it in this country for longer than christianity has been here so to claim them as christian is… Hmm, not sure of the word. Naive? Dishonest? Absurd? Choose your own.

Yes northwind, they are common to some religions, but the way it is done in the UK is in a christian manner. Do you see the brides hands being bound to the husbands? Do you see polygamy? Remember not all religions practice marriage in the way we do.

The UK is a christian country not because the population are particularly religious, but because the way things are done is based on a set of traditions that are developed from and largely based upon christianity.

If you decide to eat your dead relatives it is not going to end well. but for some traditions that is normal behaviour.

The argument that it is Christian because historically it always (well for ages, anyway) has been is all very well, but it doesn’t take into account that this sort of thing is always subject to change. I think that this is a Christian State, and largely could be described as a Christian country, but it probably on the turn towards secularism and the least religious it has been for generations, if ever.

And that can only be a good thing.

mrmo – Member

because the way things are done is based on a set of traditions that are developed from and largely based upon christianity. the traditions that predated and influenced christianity.

I think you’d probably find it interesting to read a little on the history of marriage and the christian church in the UK. The modern “christian” wedding is one that’s recognisably pre-christian, but also it’s one that christianity didn’t fully absorb until very late on. It’s also one that’s changed constantly throughout the “christian era” and is still changing today.

The argument that it is Christian because historically it always (well for ages, anyway) has been is all very well, but it doesn’t take into account that this sort of thing is always subject to change. I think that this is a Christian State, and largely could be described as a Christian country, but it probably on the turn towards secularism and the least religious it has been for generations, if ever.

Yes it is changing, and until a new “religion” overthrows the old and displaces or absorbs every part of it then it is Christian, i guess you could say the new religion is shopping and capitalism.

I mean the average wedding is stupid expensive £21000!!!!!!! that isn’t about religion it is about showing off to the neighbours.

Twundered!

I don’t think you need a new religion to displace the old religion, unless you use the word in a very open sense. If a ‘new religion’ doesn’t come about, and the old just becomes less and less relevant, then we will probably stay a ‘Christian’ country officially at least, as there is not the will or need to change things.