has to be far more satisfying than arguing with TJ

Arguing with TJ is ace.

Neal.

I say ” I do not believe”

You then tell me that is a belief?

The fact I do not believe in god is not a belief – its a lack of belief. A very different thing

Aracer – you could always ask questions with meaning 🙂

you could always ask questions with meaning

I did 🙄

It was only when you said that

because you accepted that you did not believe in a god, you were left with the conclusion that there is no god

is not what I wrote! stop misquoting me. it changes the meanings

Once i have accepted that I do not believe in god then there is only one possibility. There is no god

I’m really struggling to see how these two statements are different, and I do not keep misquoting you, show me where else I did it. You claimed it earlier, but i couldn’t see it there either

yep i dont see any difference there either tbh.
however

The fact I do not believe in god is not a belief – its a lack of belief. A very different thing

thats true too.
Score draw shake hands and go home for your tea?

Errmmm – differnt words with different meanings. earlier you did the same paraphrased which changed the meaning.

Your version “its my interpretation that there is no god”. Mine – ” once the postulate is accepted that I do not believe in god then the only logical possibility is that there is no god”.

Yours is back to it being my belief, mine is that its because i do not believe

Your version “its my interpretation that there is no god”. Mine – ” once the postulate is accepted that I do not believe in god then the only logical possibility is that there is no god”.

Yours is back to it being my belief, mine is that its because i do not believe

No, i just don’t see that at all. Unless you think that is implied in the difference between “there is only one possibility” and “there is only one conclusion”

But really, I’m not trying to pretend you are saying something else. It’s the point of you saying “there is no god” then saying that “no god” is meaningless.

I really do understand that you don’t believe god exists, and I recognise that is different from believing god doesn’t exist. Which is something which you do not do.

At least part of the problem is the vocabulary is crap- as discussed a bit about 5 pages ago atheists come in different flavours, and your basic atheist, the negative atheist (I believe in no gods) is very different from the positive atheist (I believe there is no god). One has no faith or religion, the other makes a faith of irreligion.

Now, theist chauvinism unfortunately means that the logical position (that “negative atheism” actually isn’t a thing at all, it’s the absence of a thing) doesn’t work. People’s assumption is that they’ll find a belief if they scratch away enough- lots of that in this thread. So, we do need a word, to help deal with that false assumption.

(to use an old analogy- we have a word for cyclists; we don’t have a word for noncyclists, because “not cycling” isn’t something you do. But if you were from a society where historically everyone cycled you might end up inventing acylistism to make it easier for myopic cyclists to understand that you aren’t one of them.)

So, that’s atheism I suppose- it’s literally correct, “without god” or “absence of god”. So what I reckon need a new word for, is the positive atheists, the people who passionately believe that there is no god. Antitheists, perhaps. The antithesis of theists 😉

The border between the Real and the Unreal is not fixed, but just marks the last place where rival gangs of shamans fought each other to a standstill..

Robert Anton Wilson

I don’t think that solves the tj problem. For he would not be able to say if he belonged in the second group or not, now.

Charlie – if you were looking for answers rather than looking to try to trip me up or to catch me in a logical trap then you might find one.

I have done my best to be clear. If you wished to or were able to understand I am sure you would.

I do not believe in gods. this is not the same as beliving there are no gods.

Charlie – if you were looking for answers rather than looking to try to trip me up or to catch me in a logical trap then you might find one.

I’m not trying to trip you up. What would be the point of that?

I have done my best to be clear. If you wished to or were able to understand I am sure you would.

Maybe you have done your best, but it is because there are apparent contradictions in what you say and you seem to have trouble answering straightforward question which most people are able to answer

i do not believe in gods. this is not the same as beliving there are no gods.

i know this. I have never had trouble understanding this. Northwind expressed the same thing very clearly many pages ago. I’m not saying that it is the same thing and have not done so, well not for a long tme anyway. Nevertheless, whilst i understand that you dont believe in gods, by which i understand you do not belive they exist (let me know if this is wrong). The problem is this is a staement in the negative and is of limited use, you could spend an infinity 🙄 telling me what you do not believe. I’m trying to extract from you what you do believe / know / think. It might be easier as a direct question.

TJ, is there a god?

I’m trying to extract from you what you do believe / know / think. It might be easier as a direct question

and therein is your fallacy – the bit you cannot grasp. I do not believe in gods, thats all there is to it. its a fallacy to think I must believe in something

yes you are wrong in your paraphrase of my statement.

is there a god? No

and therein is your fallacy – the bit you cannot grasp. I do not believe in gods, thats all there is to it. its a fallacy to think I must believe in something

well, i understand you do not believe in gods. i don’t claim that there is any logical link to this about what you do believe in, unless it is one you make yourself. i was clear to say know / believe / think.

because it is this question “is there a god ?” which is at the heart of what i have been asking. I have quoted you previously as saying ‘there is no god’ only to be told that i am misquoting you. so i whilst i am grateful to reach this point, where you answer the question directly, i am at a loss as to why you could not have made it clear earlier. Surely you do not see a difference between your response and the statement “there is no god”. Do you?

Anyway having got to here, which is where i thought we were a few pages back. We now only need to establish if your response is one based on knowledge, belief or opinion. I assume you say it is knowledge, right?

So what I reckon need a new word for, is the positive atheists, the people who passionately believe that there is no god. Antitheists, perhaps. The antithesis of theists

We already have a term for this; it’s “New Atheism.”

Trufax.

No charlie – you simply do not understand the concept.

Surely you do not see a difference between your response and the statement “there is no god”. Do you?

🙄

yes – the bit you seem unable and unwilling to understand to understand.

charlie well, i understand you do not believe in gods. i don’t claim that there is any logical link to this about what you do believe in, unless it is one you make yourself. i was clear to say know / believe / think.

We now only need to establish if your response is one based on knowledge, belief or opinion.

so then you ask me about my belief again 🙄

Its based on the absence of belief. which is not the same as a belief.

Wow this is exciting. Ladies and gentlemen I believe we have identified the first non-evolving thread.

Creationists are already saying that a thread that’s born this perfect and doesn’t change or alter course over several days must be proof of supreme intelligence.

Atheists are suddenly on the back foot, but most are able to shrug off this single instance of thread non-evolution as abnormal Internet activity. Non-belief in the existence of non-evolving threads, they argue, does not imply the non-existence of evolving threads.

To think that one of the longest-running questions in human history may at last be settled on STW. It’s one of those ‘I was there’ moments…

Oh wait…

No charlie – you simply do not understand the concept.

Surely you do not see a difference between your response and the statement “there is no god”. Do you?

yes – the bit you seem unable and unwilling to understand to understand.

I really do not understand

“Is there a god? No”
is the same as
“There is no god”

Unless you mean “There is not a god”

but i can’t see any other interpretation of the answer ‘no’

We now only need to establish if your response is one based on knowledge, belief or opinion.
so then you ask me about my belief again

No, i’m asking you what it is, i don’t assume it’s belief and it is unrelated to your non-belief. it is a separate question. It always has been

I have kidnapped at random a small child a puppy and a cat. If this thread does not end by noon i will execute them.

the puppy is really cute.

I have kidnapped at random a small child a puppy and a cat. If this thread does not end by noon i will execute them.

the puppy is really cute.

very simple way of ending it, tell me

Is
“is there a god? – No”
the same as
“there is no god”

very simple way of ending it, tell me

Is
“is there a god? – No”
the same as
“there is no god”

That’s going to end it?

One’s a question followed by a declaration of negative opinion, the other’s a straightforward atheistic statement.

In that sense they are not the same.

Done.

Now, are the puppy and small child safe?

no, you have explain yourself first

I have explain myself?

We’re on a deadline here, dude. A puppy, cat and small child are 80 minutes away from a tragic end…

Bigger picture time.

the last couple of pages of this thread have been rather like watching two of your mates who are pissed out of their face in the pub, arguing about something they’re convinced is profound, but which the more sober of us realise is just the incoherent meanderings of an alcohol befuddled brain.

Next thing we know Charlie will be demanding a kebab and TJ will be telling a policeman that he’s his best mate!

Mark Darcy vs Daniel Cleaver outside a Greek restaurant perhaps 😉

The answer to the OP is so clear – it is amazing you this thread has managed to make 19 pages. Such is STW!!!

“I do not believe”…”you have belief then”…”Oh No, I dont.”…”Oh, yes you do….[everyone]…”behind you!!!!!’ 😉

We’re on a deadline here, dude. A puppy, cat and small child are 80 minutes away from a tragic end…

Bigger picture time.

Go, on then. Post the picture

Lolz @ditchjockey 🙂

CM – the bigger picture:

Is that a heavenly face appearing thru the clouds??!!?? 😉

ITV isnt very christian

they cut this from johnathon ross

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_SFdUJLebzU[/video]

Minchin has clearly been scouring STW threads for his lyrics 🙂

ITV isnt very christian

It’s political correctness gone stark raving bonkers I tell you.

Minchin has clearly been scouring STW threads for his lyrics

Bet he wouldn’t dare write/perform something similar about Muslims though ..

joao3v16 – Member
You clearly have not heard much of his music and can’t google, “ten foot C88k and a few hundred virgins” is not hard to find.

Now i have to go to all the trouble of kidnapping and executing a child puppy and cat , and i was just getting in to the festive spirit.

“Religion Poisons Everything”.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-16307450

nsfw!!!!!!!!!
but yeah all religions are fair game for minchin

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PpAeNZNd9IE[/video]

So you’re gonna live in Paradise,
With a ten-foot cock and few hundred virgins,
So you’re gonna sacrifice your life
For a shot at the greener grass,
And when the Lord comes down
With his shimmering rod of judgement,
He’s gonna kick my heathen arse.

So if you…
Cover the bodies of your women
Everybody is grinning,
Because black is so slimming,
Though it’s not great for swimming.
But it gives me an erection,
With the increased sexual tension,
What with the U.V. protection
That is second to none.
You’ll find it all in the Quran
Just next to the bit that justifies guns,
And says that it’s a sin
To take it up the bum,
Even if it’s fun,
Even in the scrum.

Now i have to go to all the trouble of kidnapping and executing a child puppy and cat , and i was just getting in to the festive spirit.

I’ll save you the bother of kidnapping. I’ve got all 3 you can use.

The cats got a bad eye, the dogs bone idle and the kid is a waste of space so no major loss. Fill your boots.

Just went to a crib service in the local church – admittedly only because my daughter was reading, but it was packed.

Richard Stilgoe with rude words?