Immigration, then

If there’s a shortage of jobs in your area then just move to somewhere where there is work (just like the immigrants do) – it’s not rocket science!

To be fair, it’s hard to move when you’ve got no money.

Everything I read about immigration into Britain suggests that it is such a tiny problem compared to other elephants in the room (pensions, health spending). I get that it is a problem for some areas, but these aren’t distributed evenly nationwide, so why don’t those most impacted by them have more local/regional solutions? I’m thinking along the lines of more resources funnelled to these places to pay for additional school places, healthcare and the like.

It just seems that a relatively small national problem (but a big local one) has suddenly got all out of hand compared to everything else.

Munrobiker – Please say thanks to your missus (I don’t understand why she’s being penalised so much), and I’m glad you aren’t echoing your mum’s families views.

Everything I read about immigration into Britain suggests that it is such a tiny problem compared to other elephants in the room (pensions, health spending).

Exactly. But people have blamed immigrants because they can see immigrants. And these are the people the government asked if they should leave the EU or not.

**** hell.

I noticed during Theresa May’s speech she said that “Employment is at a record high, and wages are on the up.”.

How is that happening if immigrants are taking all our jobs and driving down wages?

To be fair, it’s hard to move when you’ve got no money.

Yup cause all the polish coming over here to work clearly have lots of money right? 🙄

Nope I get what you’re saying – far easier to stay put and claim benefits eh?

There not – it was a lie

If there’s a shortage of jobs in your area then just move to somewhere where there is work (just like the immigrants do)

I think I’ve been made redundant about six times in my adult life (20 years give or take). Each time I have moved to find a job, it is easy… …unless you have a family that is settled. Not so easy moving schools for kids or if your partner has a job, or if you have a support network. Although I do understand that a lot of migrants are in a similar position is it the way we would want society to function? That is, an almost nomadic way of life for the economically viable?

Not sure, but worth considering I think.

is it the way we would want society to function? That is, an almost nomadic way of life

Has worked for me – I’ve had to move jobs to 4 different locations in the UK (north and south) as well as one abroad to get ahead in my chosen field. Think it’s broadened my mind if anything.

Sometimes see many of the people I used to go to school with, still working and living in the same old town they grew up in. Their idea of a good time is to get completely sh*t faced for most of the weekend and their only exposure to being abroad seems to be via endless package holiday hotels. A lot of them voted ‘leave’ I think.

Has worked for me

So we should all share your values and do as you do?

I’ve moved a lot too for work, but I can appreciate why people wouldn’t want to. People (single or double parents) who depend on their own parents for childcare, for example.

Although I do understand that a lot of migrants are in a similar position

Ah but – the EU migrants (not the refugees) have CHOSEN to do this. So they are the ones who a) want to do it, so it’s no stress and b) don’t need or have any support network.

Big difference between wanting to move for work and being forced to.

Has worked for me

Has for me too, in the past. Now, I think I’d struggle, as would my family.

Unfortunately, one size does not fit all.

Yeah. Looks like its heading in the direction all these threads head in.

Anyone who wants to restrict immigration is shouted down as a racist.

Bickering about the financial economics.

What about the simple concept of too many people?
Too many people in a place?
Irrespective of their ethnicity, language, whatever.

Questioning if there may be too many people in a place, isn’t racism. It’s pragmatism.

What shall we do, concrete over the entire UK?

Increased population is an issue most likely unsolved until Women gain true equality in education and employment.
Then population will come under control and questions of whether there are too many people in a place should cease.

So we should all share your values and do as you do?

Nope not at all, just that if you prioritise staying in one location over finding work then you should also accept that you’ll probably not advance so far in your chosen career path. Can’t blame immigration for that!

Anyone who wants to restrict immigration is shouted down as a racist.

Well let’s have the adult discussion instead of eye-rolling.

How about answering my OP? Is immigration just bad because of population increase?

Solo – But is there too many people in one place? I’m not convinced this is true. Happy to hear the arguments/information though.

Only 10-15% of the UK is developed, there’s still an awful lot of space, just needs to be used efficiently. Also brownfield/vacant sites could be utilised.

Increased population shouldn’t be an issue, it’s how to manage it that should be the issue considering we have the resources to do so.

Globally, you’re spot on about Feminism though.

Peyote – Member
But is there too many people in one place? 

The two houses opposite mine have had their sitting rooms converted into a fourth, self contained room. Two houses contain at least 8 people from the EU.
They pay high rents for a single room.

I don’t see that as good progress but the price those people are paying for a different chance and to boost the economy.

But are these the living conditions that should typify living in 21C UK.

I’ve worked with grads who still live in shared houses, after Uni and getting a good job.

Solo – I see the problems you do too. However, I was thinking from a national scale, rather than a very localised one like you’ve explained. Nationally, there are empty properties, there are land banks waiting to be built on etc. We have a housing crisis that needs sorting, we don’t have a massive shortage of space per se.

I’ve worked with grads who still live in shared houses, after Uni and getting a good job.

And what’s wrong with that? I rented rooms in shared houses for the first few years after Uni, allowed me the flexibility to travel with work, to meet other people in each of those new locations (an instant group of friends) and far more cost effective than renting a whole flat/house.

Increased population is an issue most likely unsolved until Women gain true equality in education and employment.
Then population will come under control and questions of whether there are too many people in a place should cease.

Could you explain what you mean, please?

When girls do as well as boys at school, they’ll stop getting pregnant? Or they’ll realise that being a parent is rubbish?
When women are more secure in their jobs, with better support in every respect, they’ll disregard their desire to have babies?

Makes it sound like you think women only have babies because they’re unenlightened and having a tough time at work.

And what about men? Do they have a say?

Edit: I assumed you’re talking about over-population in the UK.

But is there too many people in one place?

In 1955 the World Population was 2,758,314,525
And the UK was the 9th most populous country in the world with 51,113,711 citizens (about 1.85% of the world total).

Now 60 odd years later the World Population is about 7,432,663,275 (!!)
And the UK is now the 21st most populous country in the world with 65,111,143 citizens (about 0.88% of the world total).

Source: http://www.worldometers.info/world-population/uk-population/

I agree there are too many people on the planet – but the UK isn’t seeing anywhere near the pace of change that other countries are.

Peyote – Member

Only 10-15% of the UK is developed, there’s still an awful lot of space, just needs to be used efficiently. Also brownfield/vacant sites could be utilised.

Increased population shouldn’t be an issue, it’s how to manage it that should be the issue considering we have the resources to do so.

‘land’ is only one of the resources required to accommodate a growing population.

(for every 10% increase in population, you need an additional 10% power supply, water supply, water processing, food, transport, refuse, NHS, education, policing, etc. and that’s without considering the very useful benefits to society provided by wild open spaces… I’d argue that a growing population needs a proportional increase in the amount of accessible open space)

we can’t just keep on building until the ‘percentage-developed’ value hits 100.

(or maybe we can/will, but expect quality-of-life assessments to fall fast and hard)

bear in mind that we don’t need thousands of houses, we need millions. And that’s millions of proper houses, not millions of crappy 1bed studio flats for ‘potential investors’.

Edit: I assumed you’re talking about over-population in the UK.

I assumed otherwise!

I think it’s based around the thinking that education/opportunities for women generally sees a levelling off of population growth. Compare developing and developed countries population ststs and it kind of makes sense.

The reasons for this are many and varied (and not necessarily proven), but amount to things like:

Women are free to pursue careers rather than kept at home as childbearers/rearers. Their life choices are not as limited, and their reproductive rights are far more secure (they have access to and use of contraception, abortion etc.). There rights are equal to mens so things like conjugal rights, marital rape etc. are decreased significantly (though not enough unfortunately). Their place in society is significantly improved giving them security outside of their male partners/relatives.

That’s about the limit of my understanding anyway.

‘land’ is only one of the resources required to accommodate a growing population. <snip>

Oh yes, I quite agree. There’s also a strong argument for a more efficient use of existing resources too. We’re pretty wasteful as a nation in terms of energy, water etc.

we can’t just keep on building until the ‘percentage-developed’ value hits 100.

(or maybe we can/will, but expect quality-of-life assessments to fall fast and hard)

I don’t think the numbers of immigrants we’re talking about require the paving over of the entire nation. a few hundred thousand on top of the existing 6/7 million is a relatively small percentage increase.

bear in mind that we don’t need thousands of houses, we need millions. And that’s millions of proper houses, not millions of crappy 1bed studio flats for ‘potential investors’.

Again, you won’t get any argument from me there. However, more efficient use of what we’ve got in addition to further sustainable (apologies for the use of that word) development isn’t going to destroy the entire GB/UK.

i agree, but raising those questions does tend to get me lumped in with the swivel-eyed-racists…

i agree, but raising those questions does tend to get me lumped in with the swivel-eyed-racists…

Collateral damage?

Who knows, if it’s any consolation I’ve grown quite fond of being a “tree hugging, yogurt knitting hippy” and a “hand wringing lefty commie liberal”! 🙂

Peyote, totally get all of that, no arguments at all.

If you read solo’s again and imagine he’s talking about the UK, it reads a little differently! 🙂

molgrips – Member
Anyone who wants to restrict immigration is shouted down as a racist.
Well let’s have the adult discussion instead of eye-rolling.

How about answering my OP? Is immigration just bad because of population increase?

The sensible answer is that immigration is only bad if you haven’t planned for the volume.

Here in the South East, we haven’t had a new hospital built in eons, nor any new reservoirs, or new schools, yet we currently have unprecedented house building. Just minutes from here there are two thousand new homes being built the road serving the area is already under pressure and there are frequent jams.

On an individual level most folk get on, no matter what your origin or skin colour, the pressure only arises if your life becomes badly disrupted and your own become threatened in some way.

I was over in Wales last weekend and met a *colourful young Polish lass, when she walked to her car, bugger me if it wasn’t a brand new Jag, it turns out she’s in HR, coincidently my daughter is in HR and works in Holland so absolutely no logic in me being all ‘she’s taking our jobs’, good luck to her, but, this is Wales and Wales has always had employment issues so I could well imagine local people not being as generous spirited as my personal circumstances permit me to be.

*By colourful I meant charismatic and with bright dyed orange hair.

I guess you must be talking about Ebsfleet , just down the road for me too .

The a2 is going to become worse than the m25

The sensible answer is that immigration is only bad if you haven’t planned for the volume.

Indeed. So don’t blame the immigrants, blame the government. The country needs the immigrants to grow, so you either plan for the growth or stifle it by stopping the immigration.

this is Wales and Wales has always had employment issues

Except during the industrial revolution when, hugely ironically, it drew migrants from all over the UK.

The £38k came from another STWer (Northwind perhaps) and it was in a Telegrapgh article I recall.

Molgrips not sure which point you wanted me to answer ? Yes I got the same lesson from farm sork, bloody hard for modest money. I do think it should be looked into as to how we can ensure minimum wage is paid and not have pickers paid purely by weight.

I do agree many migrants are very hard workers and put Brits to shame, that’s the point we’ve made things too easy for too many.

How can the Government possibly plan for migration when they had no idea what the numbers wouod be ?. Building houses schools and hospitals takes years, decades even of planning.

Good answer lunge, but surely the price is dictated by the market and if the job can be done for £25 then that’s the cost of the job. Is the builder charging £50 for the work doing the job to a higher standard or simply funding a lifestyle that they have chosen? Not saying one answer is right or wrong, just interested in all aspects

Interesting…. Back in 2005 I was working on site as a chippy in London earning between 200-250£ a day.
I had my own van, was traveling into town each day. OK, like a Poddington pea I was living in my folks garden and saving on rent (whilst saving towards a deposit)
Friends of mine were earning the same, paying their mortgage, feeding their kids… Yet their partners had jobs.

Towards the end of 2005 we started to see a sudden increase of eastern laborers on site. Then more and more tradesmen turned up. The contractor I was with at the time was finding it harder to win jobs. He refused to go in so low. Guys from Belarus, Poland, Lithuania etc were living 4-6 guys in a room, earning £60-80 a day.

There was no way I or the lads I knew could compete with that. You couldn’t pay a mortgage in the south east on 400£/week before tax…

So we found work elsewhere, for 200ish a day… Then the arse fell out of the building trade when the banks stopped lending money.

I decided to go to Germany and learn the language, planning to return when the market picked up again. As it was I never really returned to the UK and made a life for myself in Germany.

There we have the same problems as the UK. Try and find a German plumber, painter, plasterer…. Fortunately for me woodwork is still a predominantly German profession.
I’ve never undercut a fellow chippy. In fact I know that my rates are higher than many others, especially those from East Germany (who work for about 15-40% less than a chippy in Bavaria… The Oktoberfest is full of vans from the East).

I can understand why someone desperate for a job is willing to work for less than the going rate, but that has a negative impact on those people, their families, their way of life and it isn’t sustainable in the long term I’d you want to have a rounded and more equal society.

There are few long term winners in a low wage sociey, and in certain sectors immigration does encourage that… When an employer doesn’t have to offer high wages because there is a glut of desperate workers it helps keep wages low. This goes for trades as well as warehouse workers, delivery drivers, shop assistants….. Everyone likes to get something at a knock down price, but someone else down the line is being knocked. And if people keep getting knocked at some point society isn’t going to get back up.

I have family members who show w their super cheap purchases on Facebook whilst complaining that their daughter only gets minimum wage.

Was tying to explain to my young cousin why buying from Primary wasn’t something to shout about… Somebody somewhere down the line was being shafted just so she could wear a sparkly top on a night out and then throw I away as “it only cost £2″….

Just my ramblings.

Increased population is an issue most likely unsolved until Women gain true equality in education and employment.
Then population will come under control and questions of whether there are too many people in a place should cease.

Oh christ, it’s one of the Population Matters lot – quick someone call pest control and purge the forums with zyklon B.

Has any government ever thought further ahead than the next election…. the UK suffered from a lack of foresight for as long as I can remember.

Recently visited my family in Chelmsford, already a town of over 100,000. I remember it as a kid when I used to visit and the infrastructure hasn’t change but there are now at least four large housing estates there that never used yo be and now another 3000+ homes are being built.

The south east is near breaking point, IMO. Not a place I would be happy to live.

There was some crappy gameshow type program about low paid jobs recently. Was a bit of an eye opener. People cleaning hotels, sifting through rubbish with their hands (also called recycling), working in factories, picking veg (one of the better jobs with a chance of earning a decent wage despite having no fixed abode)…. What struck me was the attitude of the few foreign workers. They had come to the UK and wanted to make something of themselves and set out to do so. Learning English, working shitty jobs, being knocked back and still their attitude was better than many of the homegrown participants.