Immigration, then

Immigration wouldn’t be made such an issue by right wing nut jobs and Brexiteers if we actually got our education system sorted. We don’t just import low skilled immigrants, we also import high qualified/skilled immigrants as well(not just from the EU).

I’m not talking about idiot idea’s like free schools and Grammar schools, but:

1: Government responsibility = better education and free university places,

2:Government responsibility = Target area’s that need PROPER regeneration, not keep on ignoring because the voters there don’t vote for you, none of that Northern powerhouse rubbish.

3: Businesses responsibility = apprenticeships and investment in training rather than buying in skills from elsewhere on the globe.

I don’t think there is an easy way of getting rid of racists(other than shooting them of course) number three is slowly being realised while number one, education, we are in complete denial over.

The problems lie here, not with the EU. Perhaps if we get this sorted, we can still have free movement and the brexiteers will have to fall back on the real reason they want to leave: Want to play in the club, but not follow the rules of the club.

Shouldn’t the priority be to turn those already here into ‘net tax contributors’, rather than to top up the pot used to pay and service them?

You can do both, but if industry needs more people with skills x & y, and we have a surplus of z, you need to recruit from overseas until you can bridge the skills gap (if possible). Ultimately we are no longer a low skill manufacturing based economy and never will be again, so there is going to be a chunk of the indigenous population whose low skills are surplus to requirements and thus UK PLC needs to rely on highly skilled immigrants to grow the economy.

That doesn’t mean you have to let the low skilled brits rot, but they’re not going to be at the cutting edge of our high tech industries and never will be. Finding something useful for them to do is an issue in itself.

Good answer lunge, but surely the price is dictated by the market and if the job can be done for £25 then that’s the cost of the job. Is the builder charging £50 for the work doing the job to a higher standard or simply funding a lifestyle that they have chosen? Not saying one answer is right or wrong, just interested in all aspects.

A case handler
A Translator
Head of the queue at our local surgery
Accommodation paid for and made available instantly
A car purchased to save taxi fares whilst job seeking.

I think that’s asylum seekers. That’s different. They get those things (except the car ffs) because they are desperate refugees and need help.

I’m talking about economic migrants from within the EU. Those who just decide to up sticks and move somewhere, as I could do within the UK.

aracer – Member 
I’ve got bits of welsh and Irish in me
A threesome? Kinky

Didn’t stop there I married a foreigner – a northern lass 😉

asylum seekers legally cannot work so they wont be job seeking

You are a British citizen and our priority should be to put our own citizens interests first.

Isn’t it just about the best candidate for the job?

I would’ve thought you would’ve advocated market forces to sort things out.

asylum seekers legally cannot work so they wont be job seeking

They probably just get the free cars because the massive driveways of their free mansions look daft with nothing parked on them ?

rosscore – Member

our local community new arrivals from external sources, get:

A case handler
A Translator
Head of the queue at our local surgery
Accommodation paid for and made available instantly
A car purchased to save taxi fares whilst job seeking.

That’s the difference.

CITATION NEEDED.

(Which for clarity means “everyone knows this is bullshit, including you”)

We don’t just import low skilled immigrants, we also import high qualified/skilled immigrants as well(not just from the EU).

Does anyone know what the average level of education/skill is for an immigrant? I do object to the word “just” in that sentence, because it implies that the majority are unskilled. I don’t’ know what the truth of that is.

You are a British citizen and our priority should be to put our own citizens interests first.

Why? Personally I would rather support someone on the merits of their behaviour and attitude, rather than place of birth.

So much bullshit around this issue.
My wife and I do some work for a refugee support network. Mostly people are very supportive of the cause and people are extraordinarily generous and empathetic. You do get the odd “charity begins at home” arsehole, who I simply ask, “off you go then, what do you do to help?”. Never fails to shut them up.
One refugee we helped used to work logistics and infrastructure in Syria for the UN. He knew the regime was watching him, then, when helping out with a project in Kenya, he got a phone call from a colleague telling him that if he returned to Syria, he would be killed. Friends got his wife and kids into hiding in Syria while he made his way to the UK, due to our global reputation for fairness and compassion. For six months, he slept on sofas, received little to no support from official channels for months, all while his wife and kids were being smuggled around Syria, far from safe. He finally got refugee status in June and was able to get his family to the UK. He now has a proper roof over his head, but has had to rely on charity for so much.
This guy is broken, broke and very lucky to be alive but don’t think for a second he isn’t grateful. I could tell you similar stories all night, but I wont bore you (besides, it’s not what the OP asked about).

So please, list all the things Asylum seekers (don’t) get for free. You clearly know **** all about it.

To answer the OP’s question, borders are the best way to keep the poor away from the rich, which is why they only seem to be a barrier to the poor.

Good answer lunge, but surely the price is dictated by the market and if the job can be done for £25 then that’s the cost of the job. Is the builder charging £50 for the work doing the job to a higher standard or simply funding a lifestyle that they have chosen? Not saying one answer is right or wrong, just interested in all aspects.

Correct. But if you’ve always charged £50, as has every other builder in the area and then a group comes in who are happy with a much lower standard of life and half your rates your not going to be happy. You could argue that it’s just the market or even supply and demand and you’d not be wrong. But when those things don’t go in your favour you won’t like it at all.

What is the net outcome on housing demand/ school places / NHS between you moving from place A to place B vs you staying in place A and another person + family entering the country and working in place B ?

Good spot, atp.

Couple of points though:

If I come from place A to place B, net effect on the exchequer is zero because I have vacated a job.

If someone comes from outside to place B and I’m still working in place A, then there must be by definition a new job and the exchequer therefore gets more money.

Unless the incomer just claims benefits. But how often does that really happen with EU migrants? I mean real numbers not Daily Mail waffle or justlookarounds.

We still have more load on NHS/schools/roads/etc though don’t we. And is the pay that person receives enough to require no benefit payments to themselves and any family they might bring with them ?

Not sure i could be called an economic migrant as i came to the uk to learn english . i found a job in the uk whilst still living in france .

that was 8th of october 1996 .

i started work the day after arriving in the country . i got live in accomodation , and went to register for national insurance with my job contract .
i am on my 3rd job in the uk , and had several interviews . i think i got the jobs on merit .
i have always worked and never received any special benefits because of my nationality .
my wife and children have british nationality , and we recieve child benefits like any other families .

Interesting question from molgrips, and I’ll turn it around to where it started…

When we all voted, I was a Cornishman living and working in Cardiff / valleys. I love S Wales – the people, landscape, industrial heritage etc, but…

I’ve often posted on here about the inequities of rural versus city, people selling in (mainly) England, buying in the countryside, and pricing out the rural unskilled / poor / unfortunate not to have capital, of their home communities – or the making of economic exiles of those of us with the ability to go elsewhere and earn a crust…

“Stop whinging”, “get on with it”, “it’s a free market” has been the general response – from those (mainly) English with the wherewithal and general (English?) sense of self-righteousness / self-entitlement to take themselves into any community that their money allows them too. I’m not a Welsh speaker, but for those Welsh communities of the Lleyn concerned about their linguistic identity, I totally agree that uncontrolled English immigration is a huge threat to your traditions, culture, language and lifestyle.

Which is one reason why the Brexit “immigration” issue made me very, very angry. Irony? Hypocrisy? Or just mind numbed stupidity?

weve become accustomed to strawberries at a couple of quid a punnet

so we cart over immigrants to make sure they stay that way

the supermarkets rake in the cash, , the CEOs get a squillion pound bonus, the government gets some tax money, blow it all on keeping our aging population in statins and winter fuel allowances
nothing gets put back into the communities supporting the immigrants
demagogues and media barrons tell people that immigrants = the root of all evil

idiots vote accordingly and racists get a hard-on

We still have more load on NHS/schools/roads/etc though don’t we. And is the pay that person receives enough to require no benefit payments to themselves and any family they might bring with them ?

Overall, it should be. Employers should pay a living wage.

In other words, if the economy’s providing jobs but the system is still so **** up that people in work can’t afford to live, it’s the government’s fault. Doesn’t matter if the person is from elsewhere in the UK or abroad, does it?

Reminds me of one of my drinking companions who runs a local farm.

One night he sang the praises of one of his workers: never seen anything like it, works like a machine non-stop, nothing is too much bother for him, always cheerful, very diligent, great initiative, etc etc.

Then later he announced he was voting Leave “because of the immigrants”.

We pointed out that his faultless worker was an immigrant. He said “Yeah but it’s not him that’s the problem, it’s those other ones.”

What about the load on the public services though ? It’s now double isn’t it ? You did ask….

What about the load on the public services though ? It’s now double isn’t it ? You did ask….

Absolutely, that the discussion I wanted to have.

Public services should be scaled up using the tax money generated by the immigrant’s economic activity.

if an immigrant works , his contributions will pay for public services .

What about the load on the public services though ? It’s now double isn’t it ? You did ask….

We are a wealthy country, we can afford it.
Mike Ashley could cough a few quid, couldn’t he?

Actually cchris2lou, not if by being a better worker he displaces one of the indigenous population onto the dole.

Still feel I’m pro-immigration overall, or more correctly pro-freedom of labour movement, but it’s not necessarily black and white.

ok, but more people mean we need more services , more jobs created , more food produced , more houses built . it creates more jobs .

I agree generally, but it’s always nuanced – which is where clever but twisted people corrupt the discussion

yes , as you said it is not black and white .

Actually while we’re on a thread discussing things like people turning up, enjoying the benefits but paying nothing in…

I note that Jamba you have a P.

Most of the other leavers seem to be freeloading. 😉

Is there an irony emoticon?

Still feel I’m pro-immigration overall, or more correctly pro-freedom of labour movement, but it’s not necessarily black and white.

B&W it isn’t, which I think is the purpose of this thread. Why is the movement of people between countries deemed unacceptable, but within a country acceptable?
For every immigrant who’s taking advantage of the system, there must be a number of UK residents who are taking advantage too.
For every immigrant, there must be an expat.
For every bit of pressure on salaries, there must be a customer asking for the best place to buy a decent set of forks.
We are tribal and until we get over this, we’re ****.

we are all immigrants

weve been doing it ever since we became human

its in our genes

some people have trouble accepting that populations and culture are dynamic, not static

if an immigrant works , his contributions will pay for public services .

The breakeven salary is £38k pa and that’s for a single person. So whether they pay for themselves very mich depends on what they do

I have every confidence with a visa system you would have got a work permit, at least a short term one like they have in Australia.

Once again we are going round in circles. Controlled Immigration vs Freedom of Movemnet. Rest ofnthe World vs European Union

What exactly is this controlled immigration that you keep harping on about that doesn’t exist now?
The circles are of your own making and failure to do anything but soundbite.
You sound more and more like Trump by the day.

We have the data – eu immigrants make a positive impact on the economy and a greater impact than non-eu immigrants. Not hard to know what to do…

jambalaya – Member
Once again we are going round in circles. Controlled Immigration vs Freedom of Movemnet. Rest ofnthe World vs European Union

Agreed – let’s get shot of this whole silly Brexit mess

jambalaya – Member
The breakeven salary is £38k pa and that’s for a single person. So whether they pay for themselves very mich depends on what they do

My inflation’s been a git recently, ‘cos in 2014 (last year I found data for) it was £27k per household (so that includes paying for kids school places etc) or a pre-tax salary of £35-38k.
Sure you didn’t get mixed up between household and individual (an individual with no dependents would be much lower)?

The breakeven salary is £38k pa

but that takes no account into the value of someones job

Of 350,000 nurses in the UK over 50,000 are from overseas, I doubt any earn over 38k, but we’d be stuffed without them

that 38k (or is that just another jambafact) cuttoff is essentially meaningless

especially when the biggest factor in that number being the demographics our aging population,

The positive effects on ‘our’ economy depend of one’s definition of the economy .

This “paying for themself” thing is also dodgy because it includes paying for things like care of the elderly, which I presume isn’t a cost working age immigrants are incurring. Remind me again where it is OAPs are emigrating from and immigrating to?