I love Americans, but there is something seriously wrong over there…

You know the first thing that listening to More or Less on R4 (A program I heartily recommend) as taught me is that when presented with a big number like that you should always ask is “is it a big number?”.

You do raise an interesting point. Are the number of gun deaths in the US a large number?

The answer is no.

Compare them to road deaths, tobacco deaths, pretty much anything you like. The chance of getting killed with a gun is so close to zero you can forget about it.

They definitely need to start making more of an effort to kill people with cars then. Maybe more drunk driving?

Basically you’ve thrown out an irrelevant number in the hope of distracting from the valid criticism of gun deaths in the US.

January 2013:

1,038 victims of kife crime
410 injuries
4 murders
Remaining were threatened (mugged etc)

Living in London, I would say that its a pretty significant number to be concerned. No distraction, just concerned.

I also think that having someone hacked to death with a machete is more horrific than being shot with a gun.

You’ve certainly been weirdly defensive about America before.

Weirdly defensive versus weirdly critical.

The difference being acknowledgement of problems in ones own country first.

The US has far greater social issues than the UK imo.

Why is it that, per head, even thought Canada has nearly as many firearms than America its gun violence tally is far, far lower?

Not the page I wanted (comparing gun crime in the US to a developing nation or one at war isn’t really fair), but it proves a point: http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2012/12/14/schoo-shooting-how-do-u-s-gun-homicides-compare-with-the-rest-of-the-world/

This is before we get into countries like Switzerland, where I believe you keep your national service weapon…

the point you are failing to get LHS is that 1 person was hacked to death with a machete and 20 people were shot

more horrific or not 11 more bereaved families, because of the weapon used

The difference being acknowledgement of problems in ones own country first.

I acknowledge we have problems in our own country (but not as many as America).

Now can we get on with talking about the topic please?

Why is it that, per head, even thought Canada has nearly as many firearms than America its gun violence tally is far, far lower?

I suspect because they don’t have the same ridiculous culture of fetishising guns and violence (and they have less social problems).

I also think that having someone hacked to death with a machete is more horrific than being shot with a gun.

Can we start a league table then? Being dispatched from a distance, with a snipers rifle, is clearly almost like dying naturally in your sleep, at a ripe old age, having lived a full and rewarding life. But what would be at the top?

For me it’d be being thrown into a pit of genetically modified, psychotic zombie gerbils, with little mini chainsaws?

What about you?

I am a fan of Sam Harris and this is on my reading list for later.

The riddle of the gun

Can we start a league table then? Being dispatched from a distance, with a snipers rifle, is clearly almost like dying naturally in your sleep, at a ripe old age, having lived a full and rewarding life. But what would be at the top?

I think the point you’re missing here binners is that one machete death is worth roughly 20 gun deaths, in terms of horrificicity.

So we need some sort of more complex comparison table as each death doesn’t have the same weight, apparently.

So extrapolating from January (I know that’s fairly problematic) that gives an annual death rate from knives at 0.6 per 100,000. Given earlier data of over 10 per 100,000 in the US for gun deaths it would appear that adding the knife and gun deaths in the UK together would give a death rate in the UK less than that for gun deaths alone in the US. Assuming the knife death rate in London is representative of the UK as a whole.

On that basis I’m going to go with the gun problems in the US are an order of magnitude worse than the combined gun and knife problems in the UK.

Compare them to road deaths, tobacco deaths, pretty much anything you like. The chance of getting killed with a gun is so close to zero you can forget about it.

On the road deaths front, according to wikipedia, the US had 33000 road deaths in 2009, it had 11000 firearms homicides. Whilst there’s obviously a big difference, it’s not as stark as you make out.

I’m not sure how stark I made it out to be, but I don’t worry at all about dying in my car. I’d worry 1/3 as much about getting shot.

I don’t worry at all about dying in my car.

Really? You don’t take reasonable steps to decrease the likelihood of you having a serious car accident owing in part to an awareness of the consequences of such an accident? Are you sure?

The difference being acknowledgement of problems in ones own country first.

I don’t see the connection. The two things aren’t exclusive. The USA has worse social problems than the UK does, that’s pretty clear.

the shooter worked in IT- maybe thats where the problem lies….

Really? You don’t take reasonable steps to decrease the likelihood of you having a serious car accident owing in part to an awareness of the consequences of such an accident? Are you sure?

I drive a huge 4×4 if that’s what you mean?

http://guns.periscopic.com/?year=2013

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_violence_in_the_United_States

Although I confess to being not that interested; it seems that America as a society is content to accept the consequences. They can’t even sort out a health care system, so gun control is way beyond them.

I drive a huge 4×4 if that’s what you mean?

I think he means stuff like looking before pulling out of junctions, not overtaking into oncoming traffic etc.

Oh and driving a 4×4 isn’t any safer than a well designed normal car, btw 🙂

STOP with the big hand, small map statistics for gun crime in the USA. It is a ‘king big place with more diversity than most Europeans appreciate.
Look at the urban / rural aspect and yes, the race aspect. This might educate a few people:

guns-and-suicide-gun-deaths-gun-control

Firearm homicide is the leading cause of death for African Americans ages 1-44.

African Americans make up nearly 13% of the U.S. population, but in 2009 suffered almost 24% of all firearm deaths – and over 54% of all firearm homicides.

Number of Deaths Due to Firearms per 100,000 Population by Race/Ethnicity
White Black Other
9.2 16.9 3.3

in 2009 suffered almost 24% of all firearm deaths – and over 54% of all firearm homicides

So there’s a lot of white people getting killed by guns where it’s not homicide? Those stats make it look like over 50% of firearm deaths aren’t homicide?

Stat wars ! How does that break down with income ? 20% of all children live in poverty cf 46% of black children

STOP with the big hand, small map statistics for gun crime in the USA. It is a ‘king big place with more diversity than most Europeans appreciate.

I know. I’ve lived and travelled there.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/special/national/gun-deaths/%5B/url%5D

This shows, by State and race, firearm deaths – homicide and suicide.

STOP with the big hand, small map statistics for gun crime in the USA. It is a ‘king big place with more diversity than most Europeans appreciate.

Indeed, but many on here don’t understand that. The USA is 40 times the size of the UK with a massive diverse population spread from the Arctic down to the Gulf of Mexico.

I think he means stuff like looking before pulling out of junctions, not overtaking into oncoming traffic etc.

I see, so he’s suggesting, if I was allowed, to carry a handgun. Just in case.

Indeed, but many on here don’t understand that. The USA is 40 times the size of the UK with a massive diverse population spread from the Arctic down to the Gulf of Mexico.

So no one in Europe can comment on anything in the US because “it’s a big place”? That seems like an odd viewpoint.

So no one in Europe can comment on anything in the US because “it’s a big place”? That seems like an odd viewpoint

That’s not what was stated, no where did it say no one in Europe can comment, it’s just that there are a lot of toothless goons who don’t take into consideration the vast diversity within the US.

The real issue that should be debated is the lack of investment / support for mental health issues within the US. This is really where a lot of the issues arise and many people fall between the gaps in society due to lack of funding of mental health issues on free government healthcare schemes and of being on low income to be able to afford private health cover.

So no one in Europe can comment on anything in the US because “it’s a big place”?

I didn’t say that. Few Europeans really appreciate how big the USA is. When I say big, at times it is almost too big to get your head around on the scale of a single country. I would guess that Russia and China are similar in that respect but I haven’t travelled there. It isn’t until you travel around in the USA (and drive rather than just fly) that things really start to click with regards size and diversity – and indeed how the size drives many aspects we Europeans see as ‘different’.

America is huge, just vast, I visited 6 states in 2 weeks last year (all of New England) albeit briefly, and we were hardly off the road to do that, the mileages were massive. And that is just one tiny corner of the USA, a tiny, tiny percentage.

I think the place is just so big and so diverse that it really is unmanageable, it’s easy to see why these mentally ill people fall off the radar, and why ‘the state’ can’t keep tabs on everyone.

Their gun laws are questionable, obviously, but as for everything else, it just seems nigh on impossible.

So, let me get this straight – is the US quite large? I’d never realised.

Obviously.

It took me 4 days to get across on the train!

that’s more to do with the trains being rubbish than anything else.

Obviously.

Funny cos when I was travelling across America on buses it was over in a flash – seemed so tiny, like San Marino or something.

that’s more to do with the trains being rubbish than anything else.

They were a bit trundly, but a nice way to see lots of the country, even though going to sleep looking at fields and waking up looking at fields was a good introduction to the above mentioned idea that it is actually very bloody big.

Still got a problem with guns though. 9 children under the age of 5 were shot in New York while I was there; through the front door…

The real issue that should be debated is the lack of investment / support for mental health issues within the US.

That’s a symptom of a much more fundamental issue. The US is founded on the principle of small government. That means that they are supposed to do the absolute minimum in all areas and let the pepole sort themselves out.

So when people aren’t capable or equipped to sort themselves out, that’s when problems occur.