Hunting Act Amendment…

I have no problem with a managed countryside where vermin are controlled by skilled experts.

I have no problem with hunting for the pot even with dogs.

Killing animals for fun though is a different thing. The mindset required for that should disqualify anyone from holding a govt post.

As I ride through some remote parts of the highlands I keep seeing shooting butts where there is a fence not too far away so the deer can be constricted in the area close to the shooters, and also nearby feeding stalls so the deer can get accustomed to the area and humans.

In these areas I have got very close to the deer and when they move off it is at a walk. These are tame fat animals. That is a huge contrast to the way it used to be. Then if you got within a few hundred yards of a deer, it would be off like a bullet.

It takes a sick, sick psychopath to think that is sport.

And as for watching dogs tear apart a fox, that’s down there with bear baiting etc.

A fence not too far away so the deer can be constricted in the area close to the shooters, and also nearby feeding stalls so the deer can get accustomed to the area and humans.

In these areas I have got very close to the deer and when they move off it is at a walk. These are tame fat animals. That is a huge contrast to the way it used to be.

I know what you mean, just the other day I rode past a load of sheep that had been delibaretley fattened up to the point they could barely walk, and penned in behind a wire fence so that some sick bastard could load them into a wagon and shoot them in the head from point blank range – all so some other perverted retard could enjoy sucking the flesh from their bones

It’s a sick, sick world we live in!

so that some sick bastard could load them into a wagon and shoot them in the head from point blank range

That sounds like fun. Is it an Olympic sport ?

ninfan – Member
…I know what you mean, just the other day I rode past a load of sheep that had been delibaretley fattened up to the point they could barely walk, and penned in behind a wire fence so that some sick bastard could load them into a wagon and shoot them in the head from point blank range – all so some other perverted retard could enjoy sucking the flesh from their bones…

A reasonable point about how our meat arrives at the table.

But I doubt you’ll find many people involved in that process doing it for fun, or paying to participate. And if they did, what would you think of them… ?

Would the level of enjoyment involved make any difference to the animal?

Do you think that abattoir workers should cry while they are doing it, or go home conflicted and upset about their choices in life? Would that make slitting an animals throat without stunning any less painful?

I personally can’t see how the moral justification of a deer being shot by a professional or recreational stalker makes any difference, presuming they are equally proficient (and there is a recognised training and certification regime in the form of DSC1 and 2)

Expand that to pheasants, and which do you think is more cruel? Intensive chicken (lives in a shed for 38-40 days then gets a 100% chance of slaughter in a factory) or pheasants (gets released into the woods at 45 days(ish) and then spends 3-6 months living free before a 50% chance of getting shot)

Nobody in the modern, western world really needs to eat meat, do they?

ninfan – Member
Would the level of enjoyment involved make any difference to the animal?…

None at all.

But it is still a sick human who kills and maims to get their fun.

(You know, fun – like the enjoyment you get from riding your bike, a good night out, or similar)

(You know, fun – like the enjoyment you get from riding your bike, a good night out, or similar)

Or eating a nice juicy steak?

oh, sorry, it’s OK to enjoy the product of an animal being killed (an animal that’s been reared and fattened just for it to be killed) just not to enjoy the actual killing?

It’s like saying that it’s OK to enjoy watching child porn, as long as you’re not the one doing the abuse…

ninfan – Member

oh, sorry, it’s OK to enjoy the product of an animal being killed (an animal that’s been reared and fattened just for it to be killed) just not to enjoy the actual killing?

i think you’ve got it.

It’s like saying that it’s OK to enjoy watching child porn, as long as you’re not the one doing the abuse…

it’s gone again.

i’m sure / i’d like to think that fox-hunters don’t really enjoy the killing, it’s the charging about on horseback they enjoy (i can see why). The hunting/killing thing just gives their charging about purpose.

It’s like saying that it’s OK to enjoy watching child porn, as long as you’re not the one doing the abuse…

Sweet mercy. Are you for real?

i’m sure / i’d like to think that fox-hunters don’t really enjoy the killing

Why not? Why shouldn’t they?

What exactly is the moral difference between enjoying the killing and enjoying the product of the killing?

Nobody is suggesting they are going to be jerking off over it, but to enjoy and take pride in a job well done? Why the hell not?

Tories bottled it then.

Tories bottled it then.

bit early in their term to have to suffer a defeat as a result of a back bench revolt.

I did wonder if the whole thing was to get the SNP to declare they’d vote on an ‘English matter’ and strengthen the case for ‘english votes for english issues’.

did wonder if the whole thing was to get the SNP to declare they’d vote on an ‘English matter’ and strengthen the case for ‘english votes for english issues’.

Yep, I think it’s fairly clear now – I think iseeing them stick their oar in, and declaring that it was largely political* will have galvanised some real support for EVEL

* see SNP statement:
“We are in a situation where the Tory government are refusing to agree to any amendments to improve the Scotland Bill – which are supported by 58 of Scotland’s 59 MPs – and imposing English Votes for English Laws to make Scotland’s representation at Westminster second class.
“In these circumstances, it is right and proper that we assert the Scottish interest on fox hunting by voting with Labour against the Tories’ proposals to relax the ban – in the process, reminding an arrogant UK government of just how slender their majority is – just as we will vote against the Tory welfare cuts next week, and appeal to Labour to join us.”

Well I suppose that depends whether you’d describe them postponing it because they’d lose the vote now but will win it once they’ve stopped the SNP MPs from voting on it as “bottling it”.

What exactly is the moral difference between enjoying the killing and enjoying the product of the killing?

Are you for real?

You can’t see the difference? Is there really no nuance in this issue for you? It’s just black and white?

ninfan – Member

What exactly is the moral difference between enjoying the killing and enjoying the product of the killing?

i’d suggest that’s something every individual might do well to contemplate.

(including me)

SNP should have kept schtuum on their reasons until after the vote on fox hunting, imo.

I think SNP are going to get taught a lesson about the consequences of trying to throw their weight around when they’re not the heaviest beast in the jungle.

To be fair to the SNP they seemed to have become the de facto opposition in the face of the already completely useless and irrelevent labour party now expending what little clueless energy it has on navel gazing, and generally flailing about.

I’d say that in poking some toffs in the eye with a stick (because thats what this is really about), the SNP are probably representing a big chunk of their voters pretty well.

Am I the only one who finds it incredibly depressing that once again parliamentary time is being given over to this ridiculous matter, that effects how many people exactly…?

Its a very British way to conduct a class war

Almost as depressing as incorrect use of the word “effects” 😉

Though seeing stuff like this going on does reinforce the impression that it’s all a load of playground games, even to the SNP MPs who claim to be different.

wwaswas – Member

bit early in their term to have to suffer a defeat as a result of a back bench revolt.

This is a defeat as a result of a back bench revolt.

Well I suppose that depends whether you’d describe them postponing it because they’d lose the vote now but will win it once they’ve stopped the SNP MPs from voting on it as “bottling it”.

The Tories will being in EVEL and return to this fox hunting vote and pass it that way. Many people would call this cheating – for the Tories to be seen to be cheating can only be a good thing in my book.

At some point the opposition of all parties will realise that the Tories are getting really quite good at this politics thing (not necessarily the same as being good at running country).

In just 2 weeks they’ve managed to paint themselves as the party of the blue collar worker and Labour as the party of skivers. Plus have managed to paint the SNP as the typical stereotypical Scot who support anyone but England. The 2nd of these is even more amazing when you consider they have turned a defeat by their own backbenches into a win!

Be interesting to see what concessions they can get out of Europe now, and then try and strangle the UKIP vote.

If anything is more calculated to get the Tory rebels back onside on the EVEL issue it is the impertinent Scots poking their noses into English fox hunting business, even though it is pretty much just bringing it in line with Scotland.

The ironic aspect is that most Conservative ministers are not particularly bothered about the fox hunting issue anyway, it’s only been reintroduced as a sop to the right wingers. Even more ironic is the fact that for Conservative and Labour MPs it’s a free vote. Only the SNP are telling their MPs how to vote. You really couldn’t make it up. Cameron will be rubbing his hands in glee!

Funny how things change

Nicola Sturgeon, Feburary 8th 2015
“The SNP have a longstanding position of not voting on matters that purely affect England – such as foxhunting south of the border, for example – and we stand by that. Where any issue is genuinely “English-only”, with no impact on Scotland, the case for Evel can be made.”

SNP website, May 19 2015: https://archive.is/racY4
“The SNP has a long-standing position of not voting on matters that only affect England. The Hunting Act is one such matter that purely affects England and Wales, and so SNP MPs would not vote on this issue.”

“The SNP has a long-standing position of not voting on matters that only affect England. The Hunting Act is one such matter that purely affects England and Wales, and so SNP MPs would not vote on this issue.”

Some might say that the Scotland Bill which only one Scottish MP agreed with and 58 did not means that it’s open season and all bets are off.

Some might say that the SNP have just shot their own fox 😆

Some might say that the Scotland Bill which only one Scottish MP agreed with and 58 did not means that it’s open season and all bets are off.

The Scotland Bill affects the whole UK.

Just as EVEL affects the whole UK and so if it were tabled as a bill then the SNP should get a vote on it. But it’s going in by the back door instead – perhaps technically right but morally wrong.

You underestimate Nicola Sturgeon.

The SNP are just wasting no time in giving Dave a prod, and reminding him just how slim his majority is

I’m out and about a lot and cant say I’ve seen more than one or two fox’s in the lasst year. Are they really a sustantial enough risk to chickens and such that they need large culling operations?

Nicola (bless her) has said that the SNP have had requests by ordinary English voters to act on this. They find themselves playing the role of opposition while Labour, err, I’m not sure.

Remind me please, what are Labour doing apart from squabbling?

Remind me please, what are Labour doing apart from squabbling?

The headless chicken dance?

The SNP are far more organised and coherent (so much so that they are being whipped on a free vote). If the Labour leadership could muster a brain cell between them then the SNP would not be nearly so popular as they are.

ninfan – Member
Some might say that the SNP have just shot their own fox

I think that’s the case, but they have usually thought out their actions several moves ahead, so it will be interesting to see if this is to deliberately prod the Tories into an over reaction.

i’m sure / i’d like to think that fox-hunters don’t really enjoy the killing

Of course they do, I know a guy who is obsessed with shooting, he’s a farmer and carries his gun all day in the tractor as well as lamping by night and shoots everything that moves on his farm; crows, rabbits, foxes, everything. Last time I saw him he’d just been on a beaver shooting holiday in Sweden. It’s no different from mountain biking, just another interest/hobby that brings people great enjoyment and they spend all the spare time and money they can doing it.

There are a number of issues here.
The Tories knew, despite their manefesto commitment, that they would never get a repeal through a free vote in the commons as things stand.
So they tried to use a Statutory Instrument, but still failed to get a substantial majority of their own MP’s to toe the line- it was touch and go even before the SNP put their oar in.
Even under the EVEL proposals that they have had to kick down the road because, again, they knew they may not get a majority, ALL MP’s regardless of where their constituency is, would still be eligible to vote on Statutory instruments

Who has won on this one? Too soon to tell, but as has been said on one of the broadsheet websites, it makes Cameron’s task of bringing through contentious UK wide legislation much more tricky, and will continue to do so even after EVEL.

Will they force through an upgraded version of EVEL and then win a free vote on repeal of huntingbin England and Wales? If the polls are right, most of the UK population do not want a return to Hunting as it was pre the Act, and those with slender majorities may do the right thing.

I’m out and about a lot and cant say I’ve seen more than one or two fox’s in the lasst year. Are they really a sustantial enough risk to chickens and such that they need large culling operations?

I probably see a fox a week on average. But i live in he suburbs and we just control the numbers with cars which seems pretty efficient. Country folk just wouldn’t understand our ways.

am I right in thinking that the Scots allow hunting foxes with dogs?
Was the amendment meant to come in to line with the scottish law?

Why are the people not bashing the Scottish Toffs for fox hunting?
Why dont the SNP change the law in Scotland if they are so against it in the UK

does anyone else get frustrated with the politics of the UK

does anyone else get frustrated with the politics of the UK

for the SNP they are the politics of separation, EVEL is arguably to their benefit politically

however all the parties north of the border will point to the SNP and say they are going to have English laws for Scottish foxes whether they put it in their manifesto or not 😉

Why dont the SNP change the law in Scotland if they are so against it in the UK

This may be an outcome from today’s events, the SNP have made that very point and will probably look again at their own legislation. The biggest loosers may well be the Scottish Hunting Lobby. Bet they are seething this afternoon

Be better if the SNP could concentrate on sorting out their fiasco of a Police force. But hey watching tennis and then playing petty politics with hunting is more important 🙄