Remind me please, what are Labour doing apart from squabbling?

They’re abstaining on the welfare bill. A bill that’s deliberately designed to target the poorest and most deprived people in the UK and make them considerably poorer, and Labour are abstaining on it.

Useless feckers.

Who’s played a cleverer game? The SNP’s aim is obvious, they want Scottish independence. EVEL helps with that. But what’s the Tories’ aim? What do they really want? Do they really want to break up the UK? Or do they think we’ll keep being passive and subservient while they continue to sell off the country to their mates?

On foxhunting, there’s a desperate attempt to portray this as Scotland vs England. It isn’t – 80% of people in England oppose foxhunting. This is rich psychopaths vs everyone else. Just like all the other arguments in politics at the moment.

Be better if the SNP could concentrate on sorting out their fiasco of a Police force.

It’s interesting how this is being reported. There are serious questions to be asked about the death in custody, and that should be investigated. But the car crash? The person who reported the crashed car called 101, the non-emergency number. There are still important questions to be asked, but one should be should the public be expected to triage incidents?

On foxhunting, there’s a desperate attempt to portray this as Scotland vs England. It isn’t – 80% of people in England oppose foxhunting. This is rich psychopaths vs everyone else.

I think it’s safe to say 80% of the people in England probably don’t have a clue what the SI would have allowed. A similar % probably don’t realise that the “peoples champion” is allowing this cruelty to persist in Scotland despite being able to change it for a number of years

how long before English (and Welsh) laws for Scottish foxes? or is the SNP going to dodge and duck an issue that they could implement quickly?

On a matter which was a free vote for all the other parties 🙄

Hmm. The SNP currently manage to look like they’ve thought several moves ahead. The Tories are thinking so many moves ahead most people don’t even notice.

re police, its not just a scottish thing!

fb friend just posted up that she visited her old police station to find the 12 officers on her shift are now 1 PCSO and 1 PC, any ilegal fox hunting in Slough can probably proceed with imunity

So how come no protests outside the Scottish parliament against fox hunting?

how long before English (and Welsh) laws for Scottish foxes? or is the SNP going to dodge and duck an issue that they could implement quickly?

Yes, the SNP need to get on top of that quickly. Hopefully this’ll push them that way.

i’m sure / i’d like to think that fox-hunters don’t really enjoy the killing

It depends what you mean by fox hunters. 90% of a “fox hunt” is made up of hobnobbing subscribers, interested in little more than trotting along swapping village gossip, and they’ll rarely be present at a kill. They will likely see the mangled remains of a fox. It’s like being fond of meat but distancing yourself from the slaughter – you know it happens but let’s not think too much about it.
The people at the sharp end of a hunt (terrierman, master and whippers in) undoubtably enjoy it. 20 something years spent as a hunt sab trying to get in between the terrierman and the exhausted animal have left me in no doubt of that.

80% of people in England oppose foxhunting

?

Yougov reckon 51% support the ban, 33% oppose it: http://cdn.yougov.com/cumulus_uploads/document/gi9jvpnlag/InternalResults_150108_hunting_ban_Website.pdf

However, given a more complex choice, such as the changes actually proposed, the ORB survey shows only 40% want to see no change, 24% support the ‘full pack’ revision, and 16% total repeal:

http://www.opinion.co.uk/perch/resources/datatablesjuly2015.pdf

https://www.ipsos-mori.com/Assets/Docs/Polls/Hunting2013_web.PDF

Hahahah – the thoroughly shot down LACS/Mori polls:

am I right in thinking that the Scots allow hunting foxes with dogs?
Was the amendment meant to come in to line with the scottish law?

This proposed change would have relaxed the English law to make it equivalent to the Scots Law. The SNP were going to vote to keep English fox-hunting laws stricter than Scottish ones. They have promised to review whether a change in Scots Law should be implemented. Personally I’d rather they sort out the police mess, the declining education standards, the NHS shambles but they are all devolved issues so not something Holyrood or our Westminster contingent like to say much about.

Why are the people not bashing the Scottish Toffs for fox hunting?

Some are, the SNP don’t like to draw attention to it. Their adherence to the political hypocratic oath exceeds even the Tories.

grumpysculler – Member
…Some are, the SNP don’t like to draw attention to it. Their adherence to the political hypocratic oath exceeds even the Tories.

You realise that the continued chant of SNP Bad doesn’t work anymore? Or maybe it’s more of a moan now…

epicyclo – Member

I have no problem with a managed countryside where vermin are controlled by skilled experts.

I have no problem with hunting for the pot even with dogs.

Killing animals for fun though is a different thing

I reckon that gamekeepers really enjoy their job.
They must do, they don’t seem to get paid much.

I understand the subtleties regarding the arguments against hunting – not a fan myself, but……

I eat meat and drink milk.
I really enjoy it. I’m equally as responsible for the death of the animals as the slaughterman that killed them.
No problem with that.

I also like fishing.
Well, some of it.
I hate the commercialised fisheries that seem of have sprung up – the UK equivalent of shooting a caged lion.
Overstocked and infested with ****.

But I do like a day somewhere quiet, torturing fish/enjoying the ‘sport’/insert own prejudice here.
I don’t eat everything I catch.

I do find the concept of watching a fox being ripped to pieces by dogs repulsive – and that the enjoyment of it would appear to be perverse.

However, I’m fully aware of the hypocrisy and contradiction inherent in my position.

I think it’s easier to point at others than to address your own reality.
An essential, sometimes ugly ability that stops us going mad.
🙂

when humans start caring about the horrors inflicted upon their own species, the children, the elderly, the infirm and the impoverished. Only then will I give two shits about what is to be considered “humane”.

Did you mean to put “Tories” instead of “humans” there?

Well only because he’s either preaching to the choir or to those with their fingers in their ears.

I reckon that gamekeepers really enjoy their job.
They must do, they don’t seem to get paid much.

I imagine they do, if you like working outside and are from those areas it is probably a pretty dreamy job. A lot of estate workers are born into it anyway and live it from a young age, probably hard to do anything else for many of them.

But I do like a day somewhere quiet, torturing fish/enjoying the ‘sport’/insert own prejudice here.
I don’t eat everything I catch.

Yes me too, though I’m pretty terrible at it, I think my trout dinners worked out at £45 each last year. I’m not one to fish for pellet pigs in a put and take fishery either, no appeal at all. Catching mackerel and cooking straight away on a fire on a west coast beach or catching a couple of pan sized brown trout on a loch in the middle of nowhere to cook back at the tent I do find satisfying though. Mmm mackerel.

I don’t think it is totally hypocritical to do that but also object to fox hunting though, I don’t think fishing is any more cruel than any other method any predator uses to obtain another animal to consume. However shooting something you aren’t going to eat just for the thrill of the kill and the ritual and ceremony of fox hunting etc just seems wrong and pointless to me.

As grumpy says, the SNP are voting in Westminster for stricter laws than they have created in Scotland. It’s just another example of the awkward squad. I do think it’s interesting every newspaper / website story I’ve seen shows a picture of people in red jackets on horseback whereas this amendment is about shooting foxes. You rarely see foxes in France as the locals shoot most of them.

@ jamba – I’ve read that the current law in Scotland was set out by Lab / LibDem and the SNP are working on changing it. Which possibly makes the vote in Parliament relevant to Scottish issues, moving the goalpost or whatever, then definitely demolishes your first argument.

the ritual and ceremony of fox hunting etc

I suspect that for a lot of people this is the main problem. They won’t have put a lot of thought into it and because of the pomp and the fact that it’s mainly a toffs sport means they’re against it.

whatnobeer – Member
…and the fact that it’s mainly a toffs sport means they’re against it.

I think you’ll find the folk who don’t like psychopath killing games are equally repulsed by a bunch of chavs hanging around a dog fight.

Looks like it’s been canned.

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/jul/14/foxhunting-vote-shelved-by-tories-in-face-of-snp-opposition

Looks like it’s been canned.

For the moment. Still, it was a useful distraction from the Tories’ latest attack on the poor.

The problem with the “SNP Bad” arguments isn’t that the SNP aren’t bad – they’re far from perfect. The problem is that it shows a total lack of imagination – it’s far easier to attack someone else’s principles instead of having some of your own. And when it’s Labour doing it – the Labour Party who are abstaining on the welfare bill – it’s just hypocritical.

Think all this was designed to show up the SNP for who they actually are, and what they think they stand for and to put that on a public stage. Now everyone knows their lack of integrity they’ll be easily managed in the future.

As for the Hunting, I’ve done a bit BITD with the Ashborne lot. Stabled horses for a couple and went exercising the Hounds quite a lot. You lot do realise just How they exercise Hounds don’t you?
Hmmm, yes thats right.. You let them run free in a pack in a few acres of fields. You can guess which fields are chosen to let them run free in, and the inevitable consequences.
Just thought I’d point that out for the hard of conscience.

not quite with you bb – you accusing them of using atrocious behaviour as a means of making apalling behaviour more acceptable ?

Don’t forget it’s also binned because Dave can’t rely on the support of all of his party.

You’re right bikebouy the SNP has been shown up as the voice of decency in the country as they smacked down the Tories atempt to soppurt a bloodsport the vast majority of the country object to

Personally I don’t care really what mechanism was used to prevent the relaxing of the hunting sanctions, just glad it happened.

The only irony that sits strangely with me – as I understand it this amendment was going to make the law in England and Wales in line with the law as it stands already in Scotland. The law the Scottish parliament is able to amend there too if it so wished. Surely by making this stand Sturgeon is rather honour bound to return to Scotland and amend the Scottish law to bring it in line with the English and Welsh equivalent?

Or…. she could get the Scottish Tourist board to market the highlands as a fox hunting utopia and the toffs would all flock north of the border to gallop around in their red jackets

Kerching!

Surely by making this stand Sturgeon is rather honour bound to return to Scotland and amend the Scottish law to bring it in line with the English and Welsh equivalent?

Yes, hopefully they’ll get on that pretty sharpish.

Sturgeon is in Scotland already though – she’s not a Westminster MP.

Sturgeon is in Scotland already though – she’s not a Westminster MP.

I know.

[pedant] actually yesterday when all this happened she was in London; marketing Scotland as a business location base. That’s why I said return to Scotland because she is not actually physically in Scotland at the moment [/pedant]

I think there was enough public opposition to repealing the ban that the SNP can say with some legitimacy that they were right to say they would vote No. That’s what an opposition party does – they oppose stuff they don’t believe in

Cameron can bump his gums all he likes, it was an unpopular policy anyway. Secretly he’s probably glad its been kicked into the long grass.

What’s hilarious about this is remember how before the election the Tories kept saying that a vote for Labour would let the SNP dictate government policy? There were posters and everything.

richmtb – Member

I think there was enough public opposition to repealing the ban that the SNP can say with some legitimacy that they were right to say they would vote No.

Yup. At the end of the day an MP’s job is to represent the people; here it’s straightforward to argue that the SNP represented the will of the British people, and that ironically the tory party weren’t representing the will of the english people that elected them. It won’t always be like this, I suspect.

The will of the government is not the will of the people- though a lot of governments forget this. Trouble is, it’s pretty open to partisan representation. The story to many people will still be “undemocratic SNP overrule majority government”

looks like the SNP managed a couple of things yesterday.

A) They gave Dave a reality check – reminding him his majority is wafer thin, so he can forget the giddyness of the last few weeks, and choose his battles more carefully. Something which definitely neeeded to happen, because….

The labour party is a complete and utter waste of space. The SNP reminded everyone of that too, as if we needed reminding. To all intents and purposes, they are now the official opposition. While the irrellevent Islingtonites navel gaze for a few years. Looks like they’ve figured that out, and acted on it. Good!

I’m sure that the Tories and their right wing friends will be apoplectic at them for having the temerity to excercise the democratic mandate that sent them to Westminster in the first place. And will be full speed ahead to try and put a stop to it

Err, my thoughts ^^ related to the Tories using this amendment as a foil to bring out the SNP stance and make that public, and make the public aware of the SNP’s stance on future amendments to anything… I think it worked, worked quite well. I think the Tories chose a typically touchy subject which JoePublic has a specific opinion on (either way) rather than a topic/subject that JoePublic is ambivalent about.

As for SNP’s “power” or perceived “power” well only the next year will show that won’t it. But at least JoePublic now knows where the SNP stand, or intend to stand on pretty much anything the Tories try to put through.

There will be only so many roadblocks put in the way before they get bulldozed over.

Yeah, I think it’s hilarious the SNP supporters think they’re dictating policy by blocking something there was a free vote on.

don’t understand the big deal about it TBH

aracer – Member
Yeah, I think it’s hilarious the SNP supporters think they’re dictating policy by blocking something there was a free vote on.

I think the SNP folk are more realistic than that.

But most of us up here are enjoying seeing Cameron getting a poke in the eye. 🙂